Jeremy Treat | Professor & Pastor

[00:00:01] Speaker A: So today we're talking Art and Faith with Jeremy Treat. Jeremy is a PhD. He's an author, he's a professor, he's a father, and maybe more relevantly to me, he's the pastor of Preaching and vision at Reality la, the church I go to. On this podcast, I've brought a lot of people who I'd say sort of major in the side of art, of art and faith. And so this is kind of a fun. Flip the coin a little more like on the faith and art side. So he gave this sermon on art and. And creativity and all the scripture that with it. And I just. There's some stuff I had never heard before that was so clearly, like, in the Bible and great and. And just some ideas behind it. So a lot of what we talk about is from that sermon. I'm kind of like, bringing stuff from that, but it's really good. I'll put it. I'll put it in the show notes, just check it out. But also just Jeremy and his family have, like, been this steady presence in Hollywood at the Hope center, serving meals and serving the church. And I feel like the church itself even just leads with love, has a way of, like, not putting the culture's demands above God's call, but still leading with. That's really good. At one point, I, like, had my own issues with organized religion, so it's just cool to jump forward in time. And it's like nine years in, and I just love this church and I'm very involved with it, and I have a community group through it. Jeremy has authored many great books. One is God's Will for My Life, A Theology of Decision Making. That's one you should definitely check out. I'll put a picture right here somewhere. He's so clearly a smart guy, but I feel like he's also someone who really enjoys life. You know what I mean? Like, you don't always get both of those in somebody. And so I guess that's one way of just saying that, like, fruit is there, that spiritual fruit is there. He's just someone who truly loves the Lord, seeks the Lord, and leads with humility. So without further ado, let's. Let's jump right in. [00:01:40] Speaker B: When I think that God saved me is what comes to mind when I think about being a kid in the church. I grew up in Alaska, and I learned how to, like, play the game. And to me, God felt like kind of the overseer of this religious game. And I learned you talk a certain way around church people, you act a certain way around church people. And then I would act a different way at school. And it was when I was a teenager that I felt like God first showed me my need for grace. And I was just a really prideful kid. And growing up, I think that I learned how to play the religion game. I'm kind of good at figuring things out and performing in those areas, accomplishing things. And I got good at doing the right things in the right way. And it wasn't until I'm in my teens. I mean I remember the moment where, where it felt like God exposed the sin of my heart of like man, I'm so prideful, I'm so self righteous. I think I'm better than other people. And it was like God kind of showed me the ugliness of my own heart and I saw my need. But then the most beautiful thing is that as soon as I saw that, it was like I was flooded with God's grace. It was like his immediate response to it was to draw near in love. And so it was like that like simultaneous moment of realizing I'm such a sinner and then I'm so loved by Jesus was like that for me is when God became real. He wasn't just an idea or some being in the sky that I would appeal to from time to time when I needed something. But that was when it was like, no, this is real and not only do I have a soul, but it needs to be redeemed and God's a redeemer. So it all became a beautiful reality for me. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Then what kind of. So like when you knew you were a sinner and then you knew you had God's grace, was that groundwork? That was kind of. The groundwork was sort of laid because you were going to church from kind of a young age? [00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I mean I was, I grew up in church and my parents were great. I mean my parents loved the Lord and loved me and my siblings and modeled that in a lot of ways. And so I think there were a lot of things in place for me. But you know, when you grow up in the church, there's, there's also temptations. So that's what I mean that was part of, even for me to real to become a Christian, I had to realize that I wasn't a Christian. And then, and then realized that I, for me it was like I recognized that, oh, I'm like the Pharisees, like I really have this like self righteousness. So there, it's like there were things in Place where all of a sudden, I had people to then walk with me and guide me and study the Scriptures. But I also had the same constant temptations of, oh, now I have a conversion story that I can share and. And will kind of win me points in that subculture where, like, my. Yeah, yeah, totally. So, I mean, definitely a work in progress up until this day for sure. [00:04:32] Speaker A: So you were like, okay, I'm faking this to some degree, or, you know, that's my interpretation. But what made you feel like. But God's grace? Like, was it because of the preaching you heard that you're like, oh, but I'm more loved than I could imagine. [00:04:46] Speaker B: I don't think at the any. At the end of the day, it was anything that anyone did. I had heard the gospel a thousand times, and I think I had heard it in that context, but I just think ultimately God saved me. God? Yeah. Like, the way I described it, it's like God exposed my heart and then flooded it with grace. And so if you go into that, I could say, like, well, my. I bet my parents had prayed for me all that time and all these other people who had invested in me and things kind of clicked. But I think behind that, God helped me to see how beautiful his son Jesus is and gave me faith to trust in him and to finally let go of the reins of my own life and to say his way and not my way. [00:05:28] Speaker A: That's good. Awesome. I love it. I never get tired of hearing. Hearing stories from people. Well, like I was saying, I loved. Loved your sermon on art stuff, and I referenced it all the time and kind of like, my growing up. I'm youngest of six, a lot of, like, doctors and scientists in my family, and it's not that they don't enjoy art, but I would say, like, you know, all males, one very quiet sister. So it's very much like a, like, analytical. Like, the way we would have an idea, someone would, like, say something, and then we would all try to poke holes in it to see if it could stand on its own leg. So very much loving that analytical world. So I kind of had this juxtaposition of, like, I love art and films, and, like, they move me deeply. But also, if I'm being honest, it's like, oh, art feels shallow. Like, the idea of, like, I'm gonna make movies. Why? My family's like, pastors, doctors, scientists. I can't. I'm trying to rectify the fact that my heart, like, lights up on fire. Very similar in, like, a worship way with Some art stuff and obviously some not. But also it feels like a shallow pursuit, you know, and that could be my environment as well. It's like my worst nightmare was always when people use the term like, well, as an artist I feel. [00:06:38] Speaker B: And I was always like, right, because then just this whole group of people just dismiss anything. [00:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Do you feel like there's sort of like a biblical response to that? [00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think your experience is really common and because there are extremes that we have to acknowledge and avoid and there, there are genuine temptations. So on the one hand you said, you know, like you loved art and it could be everything. For some people, art is an idol. They, they are looking to art in place of God and they're finding their identity in it. That's where they build their community around. That's what their joy and security and life is found in. Art has become something that is an idol. They're looking to it in place of God. So we have to be aware of that totally. But then other, other people will just be dismissive of art of it's just kind of this unserious, shallow pursuit. This is kind of the get a real job mentality that when people talk about artists. But there, there is a danger to that in that there's a lot of like just worldly ends that are being pursued in the name of art in our world. Well, there is a lot of shallow art, right? [00:07:45] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:07:46] Speaker B: And there's a lot of ways that art is used and things in ways that aren't really glorifying to God. So I think we have to acknowledge the temptation of art as an idol or art as just shallow and self centered. But I think as Christians we see art as a gift from God and I think that we see being an artist as a voc from God. And so I kind of want to push back on both sides and say, hey, if you're an artist, but you are making everything in your life around art and your, your sense of self rises and falls with your latest project that you're unveiling. Like, I want to be able to say to you man, you need to look to God. He is everything. And that puts art in perspective. But then I want to be able to talk to the parents of many people in our church who have said to their kids, when are you going to get a real job? And I want able to say to them like, hey, God values art. God cares about art. And you see all these artists throughout the scriptures. I mean, and doing God's work in so many different ways. This isn't just an unserious, shallow pursuit. There is something deeply divine about all of this and understanding the beauty of this world and expressing that beauty and how that reflects God ultimately. So I think we need to be aware of the temptations and then see art as a gift from God that. That we are called to steward and to take seriously. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that feels spot on. I feel like I'm. I am the case study for that. Like, I felt like at a young age, all my siblings were choosing their career paths, and I actually, you know, very much in a Christian home, serving in church. And I remember praying for like a year at like, age 11, 10 or 11, praying for the Lord to, like, what. What will you bring me to? Or what? How can I serve you? Or what's a vocation? And. And even when I share this, I'm almost like, feel hesitant about it. But this is just my experiences. I felt like the Lord was like, more or less was like, oh, filmmaking will be a part of this process. And I do think it was one of the things where I was like, okay, perfect, I'll take it from here. And then, you know, spend the next 10 years slowly crashing and burning misery in depression, you know, and being like, God, I thought you wanted me to do this. But as I'm. As I'm doing this, really not living a life of obedience or listening for him at all you. Or at least not all the time, you know, kind of going back and forth. But I do feel like I had this, like, Abraham Isaac moment. And I almost don't even want to compare it to a son, because the son is way more important. But where it's definitely like, please take this from me. Honestly, when I first started coming to reality was this time period. And I remember talking to someone. I'm like. I was like, I would rather, like, clean toilets for the Lord. Truly, I would feel so much more sense of satisfaction. And I remember even, like, reaching out, seeing if early on at reality, I'm like, oh, there's actually. This is a school and there's a thing in place for that. And I'm okay, a little dramatic, but they're like, but there's plenty of other ways to serve, you know. And so I ended up serving in other ways, but I really felt like it was like this laying down. And then you kind of. For the, like, years later for the Lord, kind of bring it back to me in a different way, in a way that wouldn't ruin me, you know, so all that. All that to say is I relate a lot to that. And I think, I do think in LA there's some version of art is easy to be an idol because it's also self and career and self expression. One thing that I literally have never heard anybody say that you were talking about in the sermon was the idea of something along the lines of like, for. For the world generally, art is about self expression. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:11] Speaker A: But for a believer, I think it was either culture making or redemptive. Can you kind of talk on that a little bit? [00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think the world does primarily see art as self expression. It hasn't always been that way, but that makes sense in a world where the culture is all about self. Right. So our, the broader cultural narrative is about this kind of expressive individualism where I discover myself or I realize myself, and then art just becomes a way of showcasing and affirming one's personal identity to the world. But as Christians, I would say art is not ultimately about self expression. It's about love, it's about redemption, it's about culture making. Like there are greater ends to it than that. And so I would want artists to think. And art always does involve self expression. So I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. It's just. It's not the end. [00:12:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:07] Speaker B: I would say that, like, artists are stewards. You've been given a creative gift. You've. I mean, the best artists will tell you that idea just came to me. Right. Or that song just came to me. And of course you have to work at it. You have to grind. But artist stewardship in, in so many ways, and we're cultivating the beauty of this world and the natural gifts that we've been given. So I want people to think of art as how can I use art to be able to serve others and make culture that leads to flourishing in society and ultimately is a reflection of love. I mean, it's just a really different way of thinking about art. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that's good. You're talking about the greatest artists feel like, oh, it just came to me. You know, even in, I think a lot of, in like Japanese culture there, there's this idea that nobody is a genius in art or anything, but they, they have a genius that will come and visit them, you know, and so you just try to like, be willing, open to that. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Why? I don't necessarily like, align with that. I do think there's something about the idea that even a non believer can see that these ideas are not just like, well, I Just tried really hard and I came up with it, you know. [00:13:17] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:13:18] Speaker A: Another thing you said, you mentioned, art is not just something to understand, but something to experience. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think in Western culture we value the intellect a lot and logic and information. And so sometimes we narrow the idea of truth or reality to things like facts. Right. And if it's not like facts, then it's. It doesn't help us understand truth. But I would say facts can inform, but stories and poetry and imagery can teach us about truth in a way that logic can't. So, I mean, think about it like this could explain grief in psychological terms. Or we could watch a movie about grief. Right. Like, I could tell you, we could talk about the Holocaust and I could give you facts about it. Or you could watch Schindler's List that tells the story. And that story is not just like pretty packaging to the facts. Like you're going to understand what happened in a way that's deeper than if you looked at an Excel spreadsheet with all the facts from that. Right, yeah. So I think art is a way of more deeply understanding truth. And I think sometimes people will think, well, there's truth, like kind of propositional, logical truth. And then art is just kind of in this abstract, subjective world that. That isn't. Doesn't get into that. But just think about the Bible. I mean, when Jesus wants people to grasp the nature of the kingdom of God, he tells them parables. And a parable is just a made up story. I mean, he's. Jesus is the best storyteller of all time. And think about it. He could have gathered his disciples together and he's like, all right, I want them to understand that the kingdom is going to start small, you know, this like, band of believers in Jerusalem. And then it's going to get really big, but it's going to kind of go unnoticed for a while. He could just explain that to them. And he said, instead of doing that, he says the kingdom is like a mustard seed. It's so small, but eventually it grows so big that the birds are coming and sitting in it, you know, or he says the kingdom is like yeast in the dough and it gradually spreads and people can't see it growing, but it is. So Jesus is, he's being creative, he's using his imagination, he's storytelling. And all of that is, it's in a way of understanding the truth of the kingdom of God in a deeper way. I mean, I think another way that this plays out is with suffering a lot of Time as a pastor, people will come to me and they'll ask questions like, why is this happening? Or, why did I go through this? And they'll only almost ask them in, like, philosophical or theological terms of, like. They want an answer like that. [00:15:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Think about the way that the Bible answers those questions. The what? I would say the greatest book on suffering in the Bible is a collection of poems called Job. I mean, the whole thing is poetry. It really happened, but it's. It's almost all completely in poetry. The Book of Lamentations is a collection of five poems. Because I think there's something about poetry that. That we can connect with in suffering that's deeper than just logic or propositions. So, yeah, I just think that art can unveil truth in all its dimensions. And I don't want to create an either or. I'm not saying logic or intellect is bad, of course, but I'm saying we need logic, we need intellect, we need beauty, we need imagination, we need all of that to really understand and experience the truth of God's word. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. I think just thinking about the idea of the grief that you can experience, and most of us have probably been there where we're like, why? And I feel like I don't know that very often. Anybody gets an answer to that when they're praying, you know, to why. So often I feel like the answer is. Is not really like, an answer, but it's, you know, more like, who do God's. More like, think on who he wants to be for us in this moment is almost like where our focus should go. And even thinking about. Even in, like. I think music is a good example for me. Like, there's so many times that you're going through something hard and you hear the right song and, you know, everybody swears it was written for them about this. And it's like a hand comes through the song and grabs your own hand, you know, And I feel like there's a beautiful version of sort of like empathy, beauty, brokenness, and, like, bringing order to chaos, even though it doesn't give you a reason why, but there's somehow this. This thing that it can do that grabs you. You know, film can do it. All the art forms can do it. So I feel like there's definitely this art that is moving and meaningful, and then there's plenty. I said there's plenty of art that is maybe not moving or meaningful or is. Is used for a purpose, you know, has a plan or a goal, which I don't think it's wrong for it to have a goal. But one part of your sermon, you mentioned the temptation to use art. [00:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for a lot of Christians, and this is true of, I guess, like, Americans in general, is we're so kind of obsessed with productivity and efficiency and accomplishments. And I think that's. That culture plays out in the church a lot, is. There's a. There's a temptation just to, like, commodify art and to use it for productive outcomes rather than appreciating it for its own sake. So another way of saying that is that we think that art has instrumental value. So if I'm talking to you as an artist, Nathan, I would say, okay, well, if. If Nathan can use his artistic abilities for, like, evangelism, then your art would have value. And I think that that goes against the nature of beauty itself, which is, like, the goodness of something in and of itself. And to be able to think of, like, just being able to enjoy something for what it is. And honestly, we approach God this way so often. Like, we want to use God. And I think about Psalm 27:4, where David prays. One thing I have asked of the Lord, one thing that I will seek after that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life to gaze upon his beauty and to inquire in his temple. It's like he's saying there's something there, that God is beautiful. And although there's a lot that God does for me, ultimately, I just want to gaze upon his beauty and acknowledge it for what it is and delight in its inherent goodness. So I think that the beauty that we see in the world is ultimately a reflection of our beautiful maker. And as Christians, I want us to be able to appreciate art for its own sake. And there are times to use it. We can use art for helping get a word out about something or communicating a certain truth. So it's not bad to do that. But I want us to be able to celebrate something in and of itself. And I was thinking about this, and it's not just like somebody who's a vocational artist. You might get this. This can be a dilemma for you with money, like, well, I just got to make this art to sell it, to pay the bills. But it's also true for anyone I think about. I've experienced this. I'm sure other people have as well. But you see something beautiful. Let's say you see a beautiful sunset, and almost. Well, I'll just. I'll just share this. What I'VE done. I see a beautiful sunset, and my first inclination is to pull my phone out and take a picture. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:31] Speaker B: And. And then if I really got into that, I'm like, why? Like, why? Why am I doing that? And it would probably be because, oh, this is such a good picture. I could share this on social media. It'd probably get a lot of likes because it's so good. Right. All of a sudden, this. It's weird, but it's like I'm using that moment to achieve some really shallow end. Right. Whereas I just want to be like, man, I just want to look at that sunset. Sunset and just appreciate it for its beauty. And I could share it, too. I could take a picture after I appreciate it. [00:21:03] Speaker A: And. [00:21:04] Speaker B: And if my heart's in a good place, I'm doing it for the right reasons, then that's great. But I think this applies to everyone. I think there's a temptation for us to just kind of harness everything in our lives. And I think God invites us to slow down and dwell and delight in the beauty of a thing. [00:21:21] Speaker A: So good. It's so good. I feel like this specific topic could be its own book for the artist, because I just feel that absolutely feels biblical. And even hearing the verses you bring up in it. And here's something that I think a lot of us are experiencing. Like, as someone who was, like, sort of trying to build my own kingdom and now want to build my. Bring the Lord's kingdom, you know, and just be faithful to what he calls me to, there is this thing where I was like, okay, I'm going to make art that glorifies God. And so I pick what the Bible says, or I pick what I want to say, and then that is biblical. And then I reverse engineer this. But what's interesting, as I reverse engineer this and then I finish it and look at my. Oh, this isn't very good at all. This kind of sucks. And so being like, all right, Lord, what's. What's going on there? And I feel like there is this similar thing of, like, using something versus gazing upon it. I feel like the Lord was like, let's do it again. Don't worry about what you're going to say yet. But almost like, as opposed to, like, being a mouthpiece for me, try an act of worship. So, like, even the creating process of being an act of worship. So, like, in a part of doing that. And this could be a slippery slope for any of us, especially artists. But is like, to just to make it is, like, good as you. You can for you in some ways, but really it's for the Lord. It's like, what would you do to. To do it with excellence. And it's not about anyone else's opinion, but just unto the Lord, you know, as an act of worship. And I'm like, okay, I can try to do that, God, but I don't see how that's going to bring you glory. And I felt like he was like, just try it, you know? And so I feel like as I did it, I'm like, okay, this is, you know, not great. Yeah, okay, now it's getting better. Oh, it's pretty cool. But I don't see how this glorifies you. It's not done yet, but. And I felt like through this notes process and continuing forward more and more, I feel like it started to take shape and I'm like, oh, wow. There actually is, like, now I can see this way that, like, God actually could use this and how this could be redemptive. And I think a part of that was like this metaphor of like a tree, which is like a tree takes in water, it raises its branches and takes in the sun, and it has all the input and it just bears fruit. An apple tree just bears fruit, you know, versus the idea of trying to make an apple for the Lord. So anyway, all this kind of a metaphor of being like, I feel like there is a version of creating art. Tell me what you think. If you could poke any holes in this too, that'd be great. But there's a version of creating art that is similar, which is like, versus making something that is useful, which is not wrong, but that's the goal. Versus kind of doing something more as like, an act of worship and creating with God versus about God in some ways. So this is kind of like some things. I've been chatting a lot with people that have been coming up. [00:23:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I mean, I think that here's one of the ways that I would think about this. I think sometimes Christians who are artists start thinking, well, maybe I need to make Christian art. And so they have this kind of outcome in mind. And that's what I heard you talking about, is like, I have this outcome and then I want to, like, get there. And I would say, I think that Christian is a better noun than it is adjective. And so there's really no such thing as Christian art in my mind. Like, art doesn't get baptized and repent of its sins and follow Jesus. Like, not yet. Yeah, that's right. I haven't seen Your latest project. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Just kidding. [00:24:33] Speaker B: I think that, like, there are Christians who make art. And I would say, don't try to be an artist who makes Christian art. Be a Christian and make art that's authentic to the full spectrum of life. And that's sometimes when people start thinking like, oh, I need to make Christian art. The problem is they narrow that down oftentimes to, like, a genre, and then honestly, like, a certain mood of like, well, it's got to be happy, go lucky. Positive and encouraging. Yeah, it's like, you know, we talked about earlier, like, we've got the book of Job in the Bible and lamentations and revelation is tapping into our imaginations in all kinds of amazing ways. And so be a Christian who is making art not only about good and beautiful things, but about hard and devastating things. And I think just like being a Christian who's abiding in Christ and, and allowing the Spirit to work in you in those ways, you're going to make beautiful art that's authentic and speaks to lots of different things. So, yeah, that. That's my encouragement. Don't. Don't try to make Christian art. Be a Christian who makes authentic God glorifying art. [00:25:42] Speaker A: That's good. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:43] Speaker A: I think there's almost this thing in there of, like, you can either try to put the, the, the Lord into your artwork, or you can try to. Or you can seek to put him in on the throne in your heart, and it will just spill in. It will just come out, you know, And I think that in some ways that's the harder work and that's more the lifelong work. But, man, it's also, you know, there's. It's also the best life there is. [00:26:08] Speaker B: And I think Christians will have, like, different callings and different approaches to that, you know, so some, some musicians are going to sing songs that are just explicitly about Jesus and praise God. We need those kind of songs. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:26:22] Speaker B: And other Christians, they're going to write love songs about their spouse or about the hardship of what they're going through in their life or the beauty of the sunset, you know, whatever it is. Like, we need all of that. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. We touched on some things. Like a Christian art, it can be. There's versions of it that we've seen that are cheesy, probably at least for me, and some of that are great. But to get kind of specifically on the creating side, in your view, why does some of the Christian versions of things feel empty or shallow or just not seem to work? Like, they don't kind of bring our hearts in or compel us. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think oftentimes a lot of it. A lot of it comes from kind of a copy culture of we see this doing well in society. And so I'm going to try and kind of copy that as a Christian. And I think that just. It immediately kind of squashes a lot of the creativity in it. And then it's not really something that's authentic. And I think if there's something that artists care about and appreciate is that there is, like, a level of authenticity in the work. And so I just think oftentimes when it's not just that it ends up being kind of cheesy, but, like, less than fully human. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:33] Speaker B: Like, doesn't represent the fullness of life. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Sadly. Which I think, like, the scriptures do. The scriptures are showing there's a time to rejoice, and there's a time to weep, there's a time to laugh, and there's a time to mourn. You know, you have all of that, and art is helping us in all of those different ways. And I think sometimes a lot of people function with this sacred secular dividend that says God cares about these things that I think are sacred, like the Bible and prayer and going to church. But then there's these, like, secular things that God doesn't really care about, which might be, like, what I had for lunch and my work and, you know, a hobby that I have, anything like that, I want to blow that up and say, everything is made by God. God cares about it all. It's all sacred. And to. To be able to make art that reflects that, I think that's what God calls us to do. And sometimes I think in, like, Christian subcultures, we get from that, and we just focus on sacred things. And then we'll. The way that we'll try and get into other things is we'll just slap Jesus onto it. So it feels really shallow then. Yeah, man. [00:28:42] Speaker A: I'm so grateful for that. Some people do make explicitly Christian artwork, you know, like, listening to, like, Amanda Cook's worship or so many people's worship music, you know, or even, like, I loved a lot of what the Chosen has done. And it's like. I think that even stuff explicitly about the Lord, it can be really good. I think it's because it's not leaning into the copy culture either. It's. I feel like it's. It's. Yeah, it's. It's done. It's done. Well, I feel like, especially with committed believers, there's this maybe a weariness of ambition, and I think right for me, at least rightfully so at times. But I guess I feel like it gets a little blurry for me. And I would love to hear, like, your pastor biblical interpretation of, like, how to see ambition. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've honestly wrestled with this a lot because I'm a very ambitious person. And I think God just wired me that way since I was a kid. I just. I see the mountain, I want to climb it. I, like, I love getting things done. I dream big. So I'm ambitious. And here's kind of what I've learned in my life is I'm ambitious the way I'm wired. But I always. I think early on I thought this is just a good thing because I can get things done. And then I started recognizing a lot of my ambition is driven by pride. Like, the reason I want to climb that mountain is so that I can say I did it, and so that I can stand on the top and people can see me there. And I started recognizing, like, oh, my goodness. I have what the Bible calls selfish ambition. Like, I'm ambitious for my own glory. I'm trying to build my own kingdom. What I did when kind of that was exposed in my life was, I would say I almost swung the pendulum all the way to the other side and had this attitude of, like, who am I to do anything? You know, like, I'm just gonna sit back and trust the Lord. He's gonna fight the battle for me. And, you know, I don't want to be prideful, so I'm not going to. I'm not gonna climb that mountain. I'm not gonna cast that vision because I wouldn't want it to come across as if I'm trying to build my own empire. And I've kind of swung on those pendulums. And what God has helped me to. To see is I don't need to reject ambition, but I certainly can't kind of run with it unfiltered. I want to redeem ambition. So I think God has given everyone ambition, and some of us have more than others. But what I want to do is run all that ambition through the filter of godly character and the scriptures. And I want to be as ambitious as I can for the kingdom of God and for the glory of God. And where I see it creeping in of selfish ambition, I want to die to self and say, who cares about the name of Jeremy Treat? Who cares what people think about me? Like, die to that. But when it comes to the kingdom, man. I want to run hard. I want to make an impact. I want to see more people come to know Christ. I want to see more artists who really understand art according to scripture and have a passion and see the meaning of that. So I just think we have to have a redeemed ambition. We have to be aware of the dangers that come with it on both sides of that and be able to say, like, John the Baptist said, he must become greater, I must become less. [00:31:42] Speaker A: That's good. Is there, like, a. Like, I want, like, a practical action step on? Like, how do I. You said put it through the filter of biblical character. Can you give me an example of, like, as practical, you know, as possible? How. How I'd go about doing that if I need to do it today? Like, with this podcast, you start doing it, loving it, and then being like, oh, well, if I release it like this, it should help the algorithm and be seen more. And I feel like God has for sure led me to do this. And then very quickly, I'm just assuming my thoughts of how to make it get seen, you know, And I think that it can get too far quickly, but that line's hard. So, like, can you give me, like, a practical step on, like, how you would go about it? [00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think it's. I don't know how practical this is because it's ultimately a process of internal discernment. Because I could see you doing this podcast and you could be doing it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons, and I might not be able to see it just from this angle. Now, your wife probably could and could speak into it, and I think that's an important factor. But I think first that you're just. You're aware of your own temptations. You're asking yourself those hard questions. Am I doing this because of X, Y, and Z, or am I doing it because of that? And so you're. You're searching your heart with that, and then you have kind of boundaries of like, if. If I feel like this is a vanity project, I'm willing to pull the plug, you know? [00:33:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:04] Speaker B: But one thing that's been really helpful for me to couple with the internal discernment has been having friends speak into my life. And like I said, like, you might not be able to see it, but your wife can. My wife can read me better than anyone else. She could say. She could look at me and say, hey, why are you doing that? Right. [00:33:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:24] Speaker B: And. And really call me out if she needs to. But I also think about one of my best friends. I had a season a while ago. I mean, one of my art forms that I love is writing, and I feel called to write and to write books, and that's a form of teaching. And I just, like, I was kind of in a season where I was like, I don't know if I'm going to write anymore. I don't know. I was discouraged and, you know, whatever. And I kind of had this mindset like, why should I, you know, that who woe is me? Who am I? Why should I? There's other people doing good stuff. And I had a good friend of mine who really spoke into my life, and he said, hey, I think God's called you to this, and I think God's given you in a gift. He's given you some training in this area. There's been fruit from what you have written. And I want to challenge you. I think you need to keep writing. And I really needed to hear that in that moment. And it was huge for me because I wasn't. I really. I was going through more of like a faux humility pity party than I was, like, genuine conviction. So I just think. Asking yourself those hard questions, doing that internal discernment, but having other people speak into it as well. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Thinking about how other people speak into it. I mean, you know, I think sometimes fear from the enemy can be disguised as. Can come in any direction. So there. I think there are some people that need to hear no, run the race to win. And there are some people that need to hear wait on the Lord. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's right. [00:34:46] Speaker A: I was going to say, in your sermon, you kind of talk about art gets in our heart in a way that nothing else can. And I feel like your analogy of you and like Schindler's List as a film versus, like a list of facts about the Holocaust is an example of that. One of the quotes that I probably quote the most, somewhere along the lines of, like, art can awaken the sleeping imagination. And in some ways that's probably shown me, like, that sentence there. You should definitely put that in the book you're writing or some version of that, because without imagination, can you even believe in the idea of a God that's invisible? You have to imagine it. You know what I mean? Can you even. And especially if you're just chasing, you're just doing the next thing you got to do every day to survive and just reacting, you know? [00:35:28] Speaker B: So I think that there's. That's really relevant right now because we live in a world that has. Our society has attempted to strip the world of transcendence. There is no God. We can explain everything through science there, like, all of that. And yet our longing for transcendence keeps breaking through. And if you kind of combine the fact of, like, stripping the world of transcendence and then everyone having their head buried in their phone. [00:35:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:56] Speaker B: And living that way, there is this sense of, like, people need to be awakened to beauty in the world. People need to have something that draws them up and says there is more to life, there is something to live for. There is purpose, there is beauty, there is meaning, there is hope. And I just think art can awaken people out of that better than anything else. It might be a song, it might be a film, it might be a poem, it might be a painting that is able to just do something in someone's soul that opens up a new pathway for them. So I think it's incredibly relevant for today. [00:36:32] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah, I know. Even C.S. lewis, a big. A big pillar in his coming to faith, was like, in my heart, I long for these stories to be true. And as someone who's pretty intellectual, he's like, I can't. Where does this come from? You know what I mean? Why does this matter to me so much? And it's not the story unto itself, but, you know, who it points to, you know, is that this is. There's. There's versions of this that are really just inspired by the truth, you know, of, like, you know, Christ and redemption. And so I do think that that's super important. I think, too, some of the things I've been hearing these conversations is like, art in film and stories are so important and kind of like, so like, now I've almost heard. On the flip side, it's sort of like everything glorifies God. Every single. If you create it, it glorifies God. I'm like, why? I understand where that's coming from. I almost feel a part of me being like, man, I've seen some terrible stuff, like. And I don't mean, like, just poor taste. I mean, like, feels like evil things that I feel like, are damaging. And I don't know how I know where that line is on me, where, like, what feels like it is meaningful and important, and what feels like it's maybe negative and bad. I don't know how to define necessary for other people. But could you talk to some about, you are a Christian before you're an artist? And I think that this is a. I just think that's important for us to hear. Can you speak into that a little bit? [00:37:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think because artists often kind of think a different way and function different than the way that most people do. There can be a sense of like, I'm an artist and nobody gets me. And I've even dealt with people this, with people in the church where it's like, I need to be in community with other artists. And it's like, okay, like, yes, I think it'd be really helpful for you to be with other people who you can connect with more naturally. But you also need people who aren't artists in your life. You need people who think differently than you, who function differently than you. That's part of the beauty of the body of Christ is, is that we're different and we have this diversity, but we're united in Christ. So I think, I guess there's two polar errors. One is to like say artists are unique and kind of need their own way for everyone. Like, well, I don't have to go to church every, because I'm an artist and I'm free flowing and you can't tie me down. It's like, well, like, come on, you can be a devoted person and be an artist, right? And you can commit to things that are healthy in your life. But then we also have to be aware of the danger on the other side of it of saying like, there's nothing unique about that. There's no kind of distinct experience as an artist. And a lot of churches do this where they just, they, they don't count it as different. And they, and they talk about art as kind of an unserious, shallow pursuit. And I think we need to recognize like, no, being a follower of Jesus and being an artist is a unique experience. And I've even, I mean, here's a really practical conversation I've had with artists is like when it comes to like generosity and tithing and things like that, how do you do that when you're not like, you don't have a salary and I don't know what I'm going to make next year and it's hard to. That's a different conversation than it is for people just who have a salary job? Yeah, but you could say that how can I commit to a community group when it's hard for me to nail down my schedule or I'm touring or you know, something like that? So I think we have to acknowledge the uniqueness of being an artist in the church kind of without allowing that to be an Excuse to, you know, not be engaged in ways that just healthy Christians should be involved. Does that make sense? [00:39:59] Speaker A: Totally. Absolutely. I mean, ultimately, just, like, obedience to what God calls you to do. Like, you'll know you're off track if you feel like you don't need to do that because you're an artist, you know? And I will say too, like, once again, the goal is not just to make art, because that can be empty, but I will say as being someone who's in a community group who's all ages, you know, I was really inclined to analysis, paralysis, overthinking, a little bit of anxiety. And I feel like there's one time when I was on my way to a shoot, super stressed out, and someone was texting me in my community group, who's not an artist, who's talking about prayer requests and stuff. And I was like, in the car, we're driving, doing these prayer requests, and I was like, there was such freedom in that. It was like the grip of this stress went away. And I meant I'm like, to have a community group, I'd say, if anything, lean towards away from a community group of artists, because it's like, there's so much freedom in having separation from that. I bombed a shoot one time. We lost the majority of the footage with a celebrity basketball player, and we just bombed it. The footage corrupted. And I remember I came home that day, flew into LA and went straight to community group A. It was so nice that, like, they were in a different headspace and then I could share about that and, like, grieve that. And they all came around me and. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:15] Speaker A: And I just think, like, even, like, having kids, all these things I actually feel like are ironically very fruitful for an artist in some ways, because they ground you in, and you can get kind of get lost in your own thought process. So, yeah, just confirming, like, trust God's way in this. It's often a lot of surprising gifts in that path. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And I don't think all of that's unique to artists in the sense of, like, you think of, like, medical doctors in the church, and it's helpful for them to know other Christian doctors where they can talk about the pressure that's on them and the experiences and some of the hard things that they see. So it's good to have, like, counterparts in that. But then it's not like they can only do Christian community with other doctors. Right. Like, we would look down on that really fast. [00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Like, no, you need people who are doing different things, and that's where it's beautiful. You think like the doctor and the artist, they need each other. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:05] Speaker B: You know, and the ways they think differently and the differences in their lives is going to bring a beauty to the, to that community that you wouldn't find otherwise. [00:42:13] Speaker A: That's good. So good. If you have a lot of, a lot of artists in your church, any like books or podcasts or videos, movies, anything that you would, would recommend that you fill out. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah. In terms of books, I mean, I love books. And I, I would start with probably Makoto Fujimura. He. He's written, he's written a lot of books on art and faith. His last book is called Art and Faith and it's excellent. And I always remember a story that he told in one of his books where he was in school, at graduate school, him and his wife didn't have much money and he comes home and there's flowers on the table. And he couldn't believe that his wife would have spent money on something that they didn't need. And he asked her that of like, why would you spend money on flowers when we, like, we don't have enough money right now? And she responded to him by saying, we need to feed our souls too. And it was just this idea that like, beauty is not kind of an extra add on to life. It's not this unnecessary accessory. It's essential to human flourishing. And I think Makoto Fujimura just embodies that and teaches on that really well. And then his artwork of, of course that his, his works have been really great for me. I love Jerem Barr's book called Echoes of Eden. He gives a really good like, like a biblical understanding of art in the narrative of scripture. And then I love JR Tolkien's On Fairy Tales. It's kind of this classic little book that he has where he talks about, you know, all the stories in the world are kind of in search of this one true story and it's the story of redemption that culminates in Christ. But he just gives this lens for storytelling and meaning and understanding the different narratives that we see around us that I think is beautiful. And he's obviously an incredible artist himself and all the books that he wrote. So. Yeah, those are the ones that come to mind. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Awesome. So we got Echoes of Eden, art and Faith and. On fairy tales. [00:44:03] Speaker B: On fairy tales. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Awesome. Cool. Well, Jeremy, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate it. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you, Nathan. I'm glad that you're doing this.