Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: So it was just last week we launched the podcast and there's been like such an awesome response. Just want to thank everybody who's like been sending it out and anyone who's written a review and just the comments and also like the text messages and emails and stuff I've been getting has been like so encouraging because selfishly I would do this without putting it out there, but it's even more of a gift be able to share with other people and more of a blessings. And if you don't know, I'm Nathan Presley. I'm a filmmaker. I'm one of the hosts of this art and faith series. We have some awesome people coming up. Brian Swanson, writer of the Chosen is coming on and I love the work they've been doing. And we have Ricky Staub, who's a writer, a director of a film called Concrete Cowboy. It's a beautiful Netflix film starring Idris Elba. Just awesome work. And these are both people that deeply love the Lord and kind of aren't afraid to talk about it. Wanted to put their work on your radar and you can go check it out before we have them on. And yeah, so keep an eye out for those. It's going to be good.
Today we have Alexander Hitchens. He is a Grammy winner, Emmy winner, music producer, composer and writer. His work is all over TV for, you know, NBA, NFL commercials films. Super versatile guy, super talented. Kind of often known for this like kind of hybrid of hip hop and orchestra together. This artist who plays multiple instruments, very gifted, very humble. So humble. In fact when I first met him I was like, oh, will you help score music for this 48 hour film project called Try for your. And him just kind of being a good dude, agreed to do it. Which with a 48 hour festival pretty much means he's waiting until like 2am for me to send him an edit to score so he can have it done by like 5 or 6am so he's staying up all night for me. Someone doesn't really know and yeah, so I mean luckily the film did well in festivals, but it just kind of shows his generosity for more or less a stranger. He's also an elder at the church Real to L. A in Hollywood, a church I go to and love. And him and his wife both serve there and really play a big part in discipleship. So definitely enjoy this conversation with him. Talented guy. And I also today have kind of co hosting with me, Caleb Monroe. He's himself a talented writer, he's worked on famous comics, he's Screenplays, films, and even, like, working on Bible translations and stuff. So he's just like a multifaceted, very intelligent guy. I'm excited to have him on. Thankful for him. He cares deeply about this stuff. Champion of art and faith. So, yeah, without further ado, let's jump in with Alexander Hitchens.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: When I moved to la, it's one thing to be, like, out of the home, but you're still in the city and kind of around family. It's another thing to be out of the city and now you're really, really on your own. And I think there is just a real personalization that comes with that experience. First of all, I'm to the end of myself because, like, I'm in this super hard city, the super expensive city. All these other things that I'm putting my hope and my trust in are incredibly volatile. So, like, I need you to. I need you to be really real. And. And I think having church community, even just the authenticity of that beyond, is just a social thing. Like, no, these people actually care about my soul and not about what I do or how I perform on set or in the studio. And so, yeah, there's. There's definitely a sweetness to my Christian experience in LA that is, you know, unparalleled with anywhere else I've been.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: This is a loaded question, but do you feel like the Holy Spirit plays a role for you in, like a writing process or in a working with an artist process?
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think anyone that is a creative, there's a weird, like, I'm pulling these things that exist beyond me, right? I'm creating something out of almost thin air, which feels kind of magical, but for me, I see the connection between, like, our faith life and my creative life, right? So it's like, hey, I am called to grow into this individual, but I recognize that that's not within me, right? So there is an experience that I must have in order to, like, grow and first of all, die to this part of myself grow in this other part of myself. And so when I create, there's times where it's like, hey, we got to create some out thin air. So what does it look like to lean into something that's greater than that? It's weird because I've been in a lot of rooms with people who aren't Christians, but they're spiritual. Right. I think you guys also can attest to, like, there's a lot of spirituality in la, right? There's a lot of we got to tap into the cryst or the universe. For this creative leap. Now, one of my favorite quotes from Quincy Jones, he's like, yo, I leave the door open to let God come in when I write. And. And I think for me, I've always experienced that, you know, especially in a industry that's always evolving. It's like, how do I stay ahead of the curve, right? So I can look back and try to imitate what's already been done, Right? And that think that makes me think about, like, growing up in legalism. It's like, hey, do these things. Check these boxes. Or I could say, you know what? I'm going to depend on something for something fresh and new that we haven't seen before. And so. So, yeah, I 100% would attribute my. Not only what I've done, but also just my confidence in growing as a creative in the Holy Spirit and trusting his provision for these things, operating from a place of victory, right? So it's like, hey, like, I'm not defined by whether or not I have a good session today or not, you know, because it's like I'm not only depending on myself, you know, this is like, hey, like, it didn't. It didn't happen today, but guess what? Like, I was connected. I was plugged in, and I know that's where I need to be tomorrow. And, you know, when it's time, it'll happen. So, yeah, that is something that I try to live by, try to model again, because I'm in rooms with people who are spiritual. But if I can try to show a distinction to my spiritual approach to writing and creating, then I hope that that can just strengthen my witness to the people I'm around and shepherd, you know, the creatives that really entrust their projects to me and they're vulnerable topics and all that good stuff.
[00:05:28] Speaker C: I love that quote by Quincy Jones. And I'm just sort of curious, have there been any other artists or mentors or people sort of of you that have helped you learn to navigate some of these things, these matters of spirituality and creativity?
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you know what? I consider myself really fortunate. So I grew up. I started. I played. Grew up playing the violin. So I played the violin since 4 years old. Played in orchestras in high school, but I started dabbling with music production in high school. Just started making really terrible music for years and years and years into college. And my goal was always, I want to be a mainstream producer. I want to produce songs for Jay Z and all these people. But what happened was I found myself just going through some serious conviction. I talk about, like, in college, like, the Lord really, like, reigning me in and saying, hey, you have these gifts. These gifts are good things. You know, don't throw them away, but steward them well. And so my cousin gave me a cd, and it had Lecrae on there and Trip Lee, these Christian rappers. And I was like, christian rap? Like, I don't really care. I was like, I'm not interested. But when I listened to the cd, I was like, this is actually pretty good. This is good art. And so I started sending these guys, spamming them on MySpace and stuff. And nobody responded. But one rapper responded. His name was Thistle. He's out of St. Louis, and he was part of the 116 crew back in, you know, middle, early middle 2000s.
And he was friends with Lecrae and all those guys. And he was like, hey, man, I love your music. What's your story? I was like, well, I'm a producer, blah, blah, blah. He's like, no, no, no, no. What's your story? Like, he wanted to get beyond the music and get to, like, my soul and how I was doing. He ended up flying me out to St. Louis for a week. We worked for, you know, just on a bunch of music, but only. But not only did we work on music, we just were connected as brothers. And for me, that was such a.
Just such a poignant experience because it was like, the music is a vehicle to the relationship. It's not the end all, be all. And that's always been kind of my approach. And so having someone like Thistle Lecrae called me shortly after that because he heard the music. He said, hey, man, like, what's your story? Blah, blah, blah. And so having guys like that around me, that showed me that it's more than just the music had been super important. And even in the wins and losses, like, there's times where I thought I was gonna have a song on Lecrae's album, and it got dropped. And I remember being so devastated by it. And I had DJ Official. The late DJ Official, he passed, man, might be 10 years now. He called me and said, hey, man, like, you're not defined by whether or not you make this album or not. Like, look at your track record you've had. You have good music that's been out here, and you will have good music that gets out here. There's going to be some ups and downs, but that's not who you are. And just conversations like that, man, just really, like, just restored and just nurtured my soul and really gave me a healthy lens to look at, you know, doing this professionally, because it's. If. If we hang on the wins and losses, we're just going to be, like, tossed to and fro. It's gonna be ups and downs. It's gonna just be so unsettling. But if we know it's like, hey, ye, again, I'm operating from a place of just security and the fact that my identity is rock solid, then I can relentlessly, you know, give it all I got. So. So, yeah, I would really say, like, a lot of the Reese record guys, the 116 guys, Christian hip hop guys, really were formative in just my understanding of not only my work, but as my work intersects with my faith.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Something I have talked a lot about people and kind of, like, struggled to pinpoint, which is like, the idea for a Christian ambition. How do you deal with ambition? I feel like some people are like, ambition's bad. And some people are like, oh, no, it's good. It's God given. And so I'm just kind of curious how you go about ambition.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: No, that's. That's a great question. I think for me, the ambition has to be something that I think creatives should regularly take inventory of because I think it needs to be connected to calling, right? So. And I think sometimes we get calling and vocation mixed up, right? So it's like, oh, I'm called to be this. Like, well, no, like, you know, I've always believed, like, hey, I'm called to love people, right? And so I love people through my music. And so my ambition is rooted. I want to make sure that my ambition is rooted in my calling, so that the confidence that I have is in not going back to the Holy Spirit, being the provider of what I'm able to do, but also the end game. It's like, hey, love people, you know, and love the city and love my industry. And I want to relentlessly run hard and do it at a high level, at an excellent level, because it's not about me getting the glory, ultimately about God getting glory. So I think the ambition has to be connected to the end game, which is God's glory. If it's connected to, hey, I want to feel better about myself or I want to. I want to be happy. It's like, hey, like, if we should take regular inventory of, like, all right, where's my heart at? Where am I called to this year? So if it's top of the year, if it's halfway through the year, if it's quarterly, just kind of check in and Say, hey, like, all right, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is it from a healthy spot? So for me, I try to make sure that I do that because it's so easy to get busy and you look up and now you're just self serving and you're doing. You're reacting to things. You're not being led by the spirit. You're being, you know, you're saying yes to all these things when you know you should be saying no so you can say yes to something else. And so just having a real clear roadmap of like, all right, what does God want me to do and how can I do it? And then I can do that relentlessly with healthy ambition.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: That's good. So I kind of want to hear you saying is like, ambition is great when it is pointed at what God is calling you to do. In fact, once it's pointing at what God's calling you to do, like, go hard.
But if it's just kind of like for yourself or like becoming famous, wealthy, or, you know, not.
I don't even want to like, look down on anyone for being famous. You know what I mean?
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: But if that's the goal, then it's like it doesn't. It will fall apart or it doesn't work. Is that kind of what you're saying?
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that's always keeping in mind the end game. Right. So again, fame and wealth is not bad. Right. That could be a means to the end game. Right. So say, hey, God has given me this platform and giving me these resources, but not for me, right? It's. And I think Lecrae does a good job of that. I remember I met Lecrae when he was pulling up to concerts in minivans, and now he's like selling out arenas and he's got, you know, the Lord has given him tremendous resources and visibility, but he's always mindful of like, what is the end game? How do I steward this? Well, how do I keep a charitable heart, but also have people around you that can check you and say, hey, it smells like this. It looks like this. Let's take a time out.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I remember sort of having an epiph. I don't remember when it was, but I sort of remember this moment where I realized, like, I was like, the way that I treat the editors and publishers and fans that I interact with is actually more important than anything I'll ever, ever write in my life. And that was a really sort of upending or sort of changing of priorities and perspective moment. And so I'm curious because as a producer, you have a bit of a. You have a hosting role that I don't have. You know what I mean? Like inviting people into a studio space. And so there's a. There is a high relational quotient there. And I was just sort of wondering, is there any specific way that you think about that, whether related to your music or not, just sort of this idea of sort of providing a. Even temporarily a spiritual home for people.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, that's. I think that's probably one of my favorite parts of what I do is the. The couch that people sit on here, you know, my office, and. And the conversations that we have that often precede the music, right? Oh, yeah. I believe art is the best. Art comes from a vulnerable space, in the space of just deep rapport. Well, in order to get there, you got to have those sweet conversations, those deep conversations. And so I've. I've worked with people, Christians, non Christians, and we're talking about marriage, we're talking about heartbreak, we're talking about kids and just longings. And I think, you know, it's. It's so interesting. We all have shared core feelings, right? We want to be. We want permanence, we want faithfulness, we want to be loved forever. Well, the reality is, you know, they play out in a bunch of different ways, right? Oh, I want, you know, it's. I will always love you, one of the great songs. And, you know, it's. It speaks to this real core thing that God has wired in us. And I think for me, having people in my studio space, we're able to talk about those things, and then we're able to say, hey, this is. This is what it looks like for me. And so it almost becomes like a chance to witness and to share my life, but also to write really good music. Yeah. For me, it's. The music is the means to the relationship. You know, if I'm going to be in a room with somebody for six to eight hours, I want to be able to create comfort and just create a space where we could then do this over and over for the next 10, 15 years where we can just write because I'm a source of safety and trust. It's almost kind of pastoral in a weird. In a weird way, you know, and you have. Those have to be sensitive to different personality types, too. Right. So I'm in a room. There's certain people that I got to push a little bit. There's certain people I got to pull A little bit. You know, you can't treat everyone the same. So even that part of, like, really nurturing and understanding the relationships. I think producers of bands do this really well. Guys who, like, produce rock bands, because your band has five different guys and they get five different personalities, you know, so, like, really understanding how to, like, work the strings. And that is incredible. For me, I usually work one on one with writers or artists. It's a little smaller. I've worked with bands, but I think it's again, the shared understanding of, like, hey, understand the personality, understand the intimacy, get to the vulnerability. And the good art is birthed from that.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: That's cool. Very cool. You're talking about working with, like, Christian artists and non Christian artists.
Is there a different approach you take to that at all, or is it pretty similar?
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's important for everyone to know my values where I stand. And so whether it's a Christian artist or non Christian artists understanding, like, hey, this guy is going to, you know, operate from a place of just honor, respect, integrity. And if.
And it's weird, usually if you. If you posture that. Posture yourself that way, people who don't want to do that usually don't come around or they stop calling you. So, yeah, but yeah, I think from. From a collaborative sense, I try to be very clear about, like, hey, these are my values. We're not going to jump on a record and be misogynistic or do all these crazy things at the same time. I want to nurture a space where people can be honest and vulnerable about topics. I think in hip hop, especially Christian hip hop and Christian rb, it's evolved to where for a long time, social topics weren't talked about. You know, it was more like, hey, like, send me, I'll go. Like, we're preaching Bible verses and going back to meeting Thistle. The guy from St. Louis who took me under his wing, he was one of the first guys that kind of branched out from that and started talking about social issues and, like, growing up and having a baby mama and having, you know, criminal charges and how God met him sitting in a jail cell.
I remember we did that album and some of the other guys, actually Lecrae heard that, and Lecrae was like, you can't do this, man. This is way too raw, way too honest. It wasn't until Lecrae went to his hometown in Houston and played it for some friends who weren't believers. He was like, oh, I get it. Yeah, we need to. We need to do this, but we need to do it from a way that ultimately still gives glory to God. And so for me, it's like, yeah, just, I want to be real, I want to be authentic. It doesn't have to be preached to the choir. It could be ministering to the mainstream culture. And I think I can do that both with Christian artists and with non Christian artists where it's like, hey, I want to steer the song and we're going to write about this love song. Let's steer it in a way that is palatable to a wide. We can cast a wide net. Yeah. I try to stay on my, my axis, but then allow space for other artists to come alongside, whether they're Christians or non Christians.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Totally. And I feel like, like from a filmmaking side and like, especially like doing commercials for other people, I feel like you never get to be like, oh, yeah, I just have this hard rule that I use. I feel so much. You got to try to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit in the moment because it's like someone's saying something that you're like, oh, that's, that could be blasphemy. And then by the end of it, you're like, oh, that's actually like really beautiful. And you know, and it's like, I feel like the thing with art is it's like, it's just a little less clear cut, you know, on what that looks like you're collaborating with people too. So I feel like that especially would make it a little bit more difficult. How do you approach kind of dealing with that?
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it goes again, going back to the part of engaging the Holy Spirit in the creative process. Right. Growing up, you know, you know, especially in the 90s or early 2000s, Christianity was very much like, do this, don't do that. Legalistic. And it's very clear cut. I think, I think I understand why that approach was taken, but I think it robbed a lot of people of opportunities to engage the Holy Spirit moment to moment. Right. Being in step with the Spirit. Right. Being comfortable with, you know, the, I won't say ambiguity, but kind of the gray space where it's like, hey, I really gotta, like, I can't just say, hey, these are the list of things and then check out. And now I'm no longer rejected or tethered to being in step with the Spirit. And so for me, it's that I have to, I have to be that way. So even, you know, before I go into a session, you know, saying a prayer, like, God, like, keep me sensitive but keep me agile, you know, because I think the agility is the part where not only are you able to love creatives who, you know, may not, they may be trying to figure it out and trying to create language for their feelings and it may come off as like, oh, that's just kind of off the wall. But I kind of understand what you're saying, like I hear what you're saying, so let's, let's engage that a little bit. But also being sensitive enough where it's like I can't really go there because this is just going to be not good for me. So. Yeah, I think, I think, especially now, I think LA has been really good at helping me really refine that, you know, because there's such a beautiful spectrum of experiences, beliefs, languages. So you gotta, yeah, stay agile. I think I would just encourage, whether it's a producer, a filmmaker, just be agile, but stay tethered to the Holy Spirit. Don't try to do it on your own.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: That's good.
[00:18:17] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, rules and. Rules and art just don't really go together in any sense. You know, whether it's spiritual rules or not. The point of art is that it kind of is redefining rules for us.
You know, I think of, I, I've just been, I've been reading scripture a lot and thinking about it as a piece of art, this really long lasting piece of art. And I think about Ecclesiastes, which basically it sounds blasphemous. The whole book pretty much. Or Song of Songs, which is the most read and studied erotic poem of all time.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Or Esther, which doesn't mention God wants, is an entire book about politics. Like it's just, it's really hard to look at, at the art of scripture and then also try to have these rules about we can't talk about this or we can't talk about that because it, it follows none of those rules. You know what I mean?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think our hearts crave to know what to do. To do. I think it's uncomfortable, it's vulnerable to exist in the space of like depending on the Lord that I think about the garden. Right. So Adam and Eve was like, hey, God was. Exists in the garden, depend on me, let's just be together. And I was like, I want to know. I want to know. Like I want to know what to do, what not to. I want to know for myself rather than just like this call to just exist and be with God and just be in step with him and trust Him. So it really goes back to that Our heart's longing is to have this like, clear cut. But I think that's the beauty of being artists. It's like, ah, let's like kind of. Let's get. Let's be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, So I think there's such. Such a beauty in the art. And I love, Caleb, how you talked about just like the Bible is written from a beautiful artistic perspective as well.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: That's good. Do you. Does art need to be Christian art to glorify God in your opinion, like, explicitly Christian?
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Like, hey, this is a Christian painting.
[00:19:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well, actually, maybe first, do you think there is a definition for Christian art? Do you think there is such a thing?
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I don't. And I know that there. I know this is a very hotly debated topic, especially in Christian hip hop, because, like, you know, there's a lot of artists I work with who's like, yeah, I'm just a rapper. Like, no, you're a Christian rapper. Like, no, I'm just a rapper. I think art can be one of the greatest apologetics and we could just call it art. Right. So if I'm looking at a painting, there's no way for me to know that this painting is a Christian painting. It could be done by somebody who loves Jesus incredibly. But I don't. I wouldn't know that looking at the painting. Right. But if the painting is like, man, you know what? This is beautiful. This makes me think of just. It's an overflow of God's creativity through people, then I think that's tethered to our Christian experience. We don't do that. Like, you know, we don't call Steph Curry a Christian basketball player. He's a basketball player, but the way he conducts himself in interviews and way he loves his family, the way he treats his teammates demonstrates his love for God. That kind of permeates his.
The way he does his work. So, yeah, I don't. I think it's okay to say, hey, this is a gospel artist. Because it's like, I'm gonna. I'm preaching the gospel through this particular thing. But I don't think it's necessary to label something with this is Christian art. It's like, I love Jesus and I do art. You know, call it what it is.
[00:21:10] Speaker C: I mentioned earlier my dead mentors. One of them is Madeline Langle, who wrote Wrinkle in Time and all of those books. And she has a. She talks about. She's like, I'm not sure if there's like a. If there's a rule in the positive, she's like, but I do think, like, there's a negative rule, which is bad art is bad religion. Like. Like, if you believe in a God who's a creator of beauty and quality and truth and goodness, then to make poor art is a bad reflection of that.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: You know, that's really good. I agree. I think we're. We're called to excellence. And that's actually, you know, it's one of the things that drew me to. To reality. LA is like the. The worst of music was so excellent. Like, as a guy who moved to LA to do music and just had a high value on the execution of it, the music was immediately the first thing that drew me in. I was like, yo. Like, first of all, it's not a show. There's silhouettes and these are like, these sound like touring musicians. Come to find out, a lot of them are touring musicians. And so I. I really appreciate just the high value on the. The execution and the excellence of the music. And so, yeah, I think good art, you know, is a testimony to a good guy.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: That's good. I went to one of the. Actually, I think Caleb put on this event. It was a writer's talking about faith thing. And there's this talented writer. He's an older guy now, and we were doing Q&As, and I asked, but are there any obligations as a Christian with your writing? Like, is there anything that is required? And he, like, paused for a long time. He's like. He's like, I'm not sure, but I think one that we can know is true is that it must be truthful.
It must speak the truth, you know, and that hit me so hard thinking about how the. Even just like, you know, I don't want to discourage anybody and it's a miracle to even make a movie, but when something feels so false and you're like, oh, that's not how people act. That's not how people would say that. Like, you know, when they're like, the villain is the sinner, but of course he can't curse because, you know, we can't have curse word movies, you know, or whatever. You know, it's just like, there's just not a truth to it. And I can see someone taking that and being like, we're just gonna be so true and just show the worst stuff. And, you know, and obviously, like, there's a way to go the wrong direction on that. But I do think as, like, for people sitting here listening to this. It's like to seek to make it truthful at the very least. It's like kind of like a minimum bar.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: You know, I'd actually say that's part of our calling, is to be truthful, to tell the truth in love. Right. And so, like, you know, and I think that's, again, was it to Tim Keller, quote, it's like love without truth is sentimentality. Truth without love is harshness. You know, but both things must coexist. Right. I think that's an incredible value for that writer to say, hey, it's gotta be truthful. Cause that's part of what we're supposed to be doing is to bring truth into the world.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: So that's awesome.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: You mentioned what's being attracted to Reality la, and you mentioned earlier being almost pastoral, sort of the producer role. But you are a pastor@ Reality LA and your wife is a deacon and she's on staff. I was on staff there for seven years.
And Nathan and his wife are both deacons.
So I guess this is sort of for both of you or for all of us, I'm not sure. But how. How has it been for you to try to balance multiple callings? Right. The calling to be an artist and the calling to be a pastor. I'm not sure I ever found the balance, to be honest.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: Or if there is a balance to be found. But I'm wondering from both of you, what are your thoughts and sort of what it means to balance those kind of roles that like, oh, I'm officially this. And I'm officially this.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier about my calling isn't necessarily my vocation. My vocation is a way to express my calling. Right. But my calling can play out in different avenues. Right. So I ultimately love loving people and talking to people and caring for people. And so I was doing that before I even stepped into the office. You know, it's having people over at my studio, you know, going out to dinners and going below the surface and looking at life in layers. And I've been able to kind of, you know, experience some of that in the official role as elder. There was like, hey, I'm like, let's have lunch and tell me about your life and what's going on. And that's the same thing that I do for my work. You know, so there's the overlap because I'm a lay elder, I'm not in the administrative part of it, which, you know, God bless those guys who are in there doing the, you know, doing all the layouts for the year and all that stuff. And they do an amazing job, and they make our jobs as lay elders, like, really, I'll say easy, but just collaborative. And so. But yeah, I think I haven't necessarily felt the competing nature of it. You know, I've done a funeral, I've done weddings, but those things are loving people, right? So again, it goes back to, like, I just want to love people, man. Like, that's just. And I love people through my music. I love people through going to the gym in the morning. I love my wife, my daughter. So any way I can get a chance to do that, that's what makes me come alive. And so. So, yeah, it's been a joy just to even step into that. That role in that office.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: This is the verbal process version of this. But I think that there are things that I feel very confident that God has called me to. And I've prayed and I've. I've waited on the Lord, and there are things that are very clear, which is like, what a gift. And sometimes I see how similar and how they connect, and I don't. But I feel like it's sort of this. Try to be diligent today and abandon the outcome. Like, there are times for sure that I. With some of the deacon stuff that I'm like, oh. Like, I'm a father and my kids need a break. Like, we've been running around too much, and so I'm gonna not go. You know, I'm not. I'm not actually tonight, I'm not going to regional prayer because my kids have been going so hard and my wife's been going so hard, you know, And I think, like, I do sort of have an order with some of that stuff of, like, my faith with the Lord, relationship with my wife, my family, you know, my church, my community. Really, my community and church, they're kind of the same in one community group. But, yeah, I think, like, ultimately a big part of my foot called to is discipleship. So I was a Christian, struggling, lonely, deep in sin, you know, just lost in LA as someone who loved God and continued to pray. Prayed every day for Christian community, prayed every day for a Christian wife. And for years, didn't get that. You know, I felt. I feel like, man, my heart is open so much to, like, sort of be a, like, mom and dad presence, full presence in la. So we, like, make dinner every Tuesday and have people here. And I even think even with prodigal, it's like, similar. Like, I want to help discipleship artists in this process, you know, and to really make honest, beautiful stuff. So I think discipleship is a clear part of that. But then there's also like, I feel called to create the art as well. I know that it's like, ideally you do one thing, thing, and I'm like, I feel like the things have gotten closer over time. But I wouldn't say it's just one thing, you know? So I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question, but to me, I guess it's like, think of it in a smaller view. What is diligence today? And then it's like God's in charge of the outcome. I just try to be faithful, you know, the best I can.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Makes me think about. The mercies are new every day, right? So today's mercies are for today. I can't take today's mercies and try to apply them on tomorrow's issues or next week's issues, because then I'm going to put myself in a deficit for today, right? So, like, staying in the moment, you know, has been really helpful for me. I also think there's. There's seasons, like, callings can change for different seasons, right? So, you know, I'm a big believer in like going back to the whole check in, like, hey, maybe for the first quarter this year, this is what I need to do. And then once that's up, go spend some time with the Lord. Spend some time with your wife and say, hey, we need to dedicate this kind of time to the family for this season. And so just be again, it goes back to the agility, right? You don't have to be rigid with it and just trust that the Lord's like, hey. The Lord may say, hey, you've done really well for these three months. Let's pivot and go this way. You gotta stay. Just continue to stay connected to the Holy Spirit. And so I love your honesty with that. Donate that.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah. What about you, Caleb?
[00:28:33] Speaker C: Like I said, I'm not sure that I ever found any balance in it. I like what you were saying, Alex. Like, there's no saving account for mercy and grace.
You get what you need for today and you either spend it today or you don't. But it's not going to be around tomorrow.
I think I felt tension about it. I think I still feel tension about it. I'm not sure I ever reached any sort of understanding. I also think maybe that's okay, you know, like, because I would just show up and try to do what I could do in either role at any given time. You know, as a writer, I realized this truth that God's the God of all opportunity and the God of all result. And it's just my job to show up in between and be faithful. Like, I can't create a single opportunity for myself. They. And I can't create a single result.
I could write maybe the most technically, objectively best story of all time. I can't make anyone buy it. I can't make anyone want to make it. You know what I mean? Like, all of that is. So the results are out of my hands. The opportunities are out of my hands. And so how do I be faithful right now with the opportunities that God has given me and then let go of them and not worry about the results? And I sort of developed that understanding as a writer. But I think that's also a perfect description of being in professional ministry or being in unprofessional ministry. Just being in relationships with. With. With people is just sort of knowing that you can't. There are no results that you can choose. You know, you have to just be in the moment here and now and not let God worry about where it goes, you know?
[00:30:00] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely.
[00:30:01] Speaker C: But, yeah, I would say I'm kind of dissatisfied. Like, maybe.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: And maybe it's.
[00:30:05] Speaker C: Maybe that's actually a place where it's okay to sort of just have some dissatisfaction and not know how it fits together. Maybe that's the point. You're not supposed to understand everything. But, yeah, I would say sort of a place of. Still a place of tension for me.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Well, I just. I just want to affirm your footprint and fingerprints are felt. So, you know, I know there's. There's a. You use the word just satisfaction and the uncertainty of it, but I can attest from someone on the outside who's known you and know people who know you that your footprint and your fingerprints are felt in the city, in the art, in the ministries. So well done.
[00:30:37] Speaker C: Well, thank you. I'm gonna. I'm sure there's several times later this year I'm gonna have to hang on to that like a floating piece of wood in the ocean.
Let me ask you another question. It's. While we're talking about life roles, you fairly recently became a father for the first time.
Has becoming a father changed your relationship with your work or. And then I'm also curious if it did. Is it the change you thought it would be?
[00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's. That's a great question. I think There is, you know, there's a weird self centeredness that I've always fought with being a creative, you know, I think it's just, you know, you're not alone.
You know, just part is the, the problem solver, the I gotta figure it out. There's the I won't lose. And also just the tension that I feel of like, going back to like, all right, I gotta engage the Holy Spirit. But then also just this urge of like, ah, like, I'm impatient. Let's figure it out right now. I think there is a surrender that parenting has ushered me towards that has reverberated through the creative spaces, through the spaces of being married. Not only it's funny, I use the word surrender because my schedule is also. I've had to surrender things that just. Because, you know, I think it's a great thing though, you know, I think I've learned to be more intentional. I used to be able to sit in the studio for like 10 to 12 hours and just say, hey, you know, I'm just going to exist here till the vibe comes and ride the wave. And now it's like, oh, I have six hours to get in there and to make something happen. But I've learned that, you know, of those 10 hours, maybe really only deep went deep for like four or five of them, you know, so now it's like, all right, I got to learn how to get deeper quicker. So with less time, I can still maximize four or five hours, but I just don't have the excess fat around my schedule to do that. So what I've been able to do is identify things that have been distractions. You know, I read a book called Deep Work. It's a great book and it talks about Cal Newport. Love it.
[00:32:23] Speaker C: Yeah, dude, and slow, bro, slow productivity. His new one is also great.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Okay. Yeah, so it's, it's, for me, it's learning like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have YouTube open. Maybe I should put my phone or do not disturb. Maybe I should put my phone in the other room.
Maybe I should designate email time to say hey before I go into the actual creative space. These are just emails because. Because if I just allow myself to get emails as I work now, I'm just reacting to stuff and now all of a sudden my time is everywhere rather than saying, hey, this is just creative time.
And so it's been a gift. Sometimes it's a sweet mercy to have things kind of pulled and snatched from you. And for me, having my time become more valuable and more Limited has been a good thing because it's allowed me to be intentional with the time that I do have. But also it's allowed me to make sure I still nurture my time with my daughter and my family to stop, you know, stopping at five, cooking dinner, spending time with her. And I've experienced the Lord show up in ways that I could not imagine. You know, people talk about when you have kids, you'll just see God show up in some amazing ways and work will show up and stuff. And I was like, yeah, we'll see. I can testify to that. I also recognize there could be seasons where the work slows down and God's still good in that.
But it's just. Yeah, surrender is probably, if I had to use one word to kind of encapsulate just the past 18 months, it's just been a sweet surrender.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: And Nathan, I'm curious your thoughts on that too. You're a father of two, a little further down the road than Alex, but how has, how has your relationship to your art evolved in that role?
[00:33:52] Speaker A: So I only obviously know my own experience, but I can tell you as someone who was very inclined to analysis paralysis, someone who was inclined to like, especially previously, depression, stuff like just feeling a little dissatisfied. I would say on the positive side, like you trade comfort for joy, like base level joy. Like my whole base level has moved up and so I feel like just day to day contentment is way higher. Comfort is down. I'm comfortable less often, but I'm happier. So that's like. And I think that affects the art process in a good way. I definitely connect with you about the efficiency thing where it's like you just have to do it in a short amount of time. And there's actually lots of studies that like people tend to make, make like more money per. And be more effective. Like for per amount of kids they have, broadly speaking, it's a loose thing. But you know, and I wasn't like, that can't be right. But I think I. In the sense, I'm like, well, A, you kind of have to. There's some, you know, and then B, it's like, I think you do sort of like there's some like things you would have tried out that you're not going to try out because you need to, you need to see fruit from your labor, you know. So I feel like trading comfort for joy is a big one.
Early on there was some really hard stuff of being like, I'm trying to have a quiet time Lord. I'm trying to Spend time with you, and literally, my kids won't let me. Why would you give me children that don't let me be with you? You know, and feeling like in time, I felt like the Lord was, like, I could be wrong, but I felt like the Lord was like, I'm training you how to be with me in all circumstances.
I'm training you how to meditate on me day and night. And this is the only way that's possible if you have to be in a silent room to be with me.
That's not what I want for you. You know, I want. I want. There can be moments of that, but there can also be moments of, like, chaos and, like, looking around and being like, this is the sound of life right here, you know? Yeah. So that's my messy. My messy answer to that. But, yeah, I think trading comfort for joy, and I think having kids has helped me get things done.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah.
[00:35:53] Speaker A: I have a question for you, Alex. Everybody answers this so differently. I love hearing it. But, like, have you found any patterns to the moments you kind of get inspired?
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's good. For me, it is just being with people in conversations, which is funny, because going back to the having kids part, that's become a lot harder to do. You know, you can't just, hey, let's go hang out and let's go do this thing, or whatever.
There's.
It's. It's. It's lowered the volume of it, but it's increased the value of it. So I try to be intentional about spending time with people, not just in the studio, but having lunches and having conversations. And from those conversations, song ideas come up. You're inspired by people's lived experiences and whatnot. So that. That. Me, that's been good. I've tried to be real intentional about making sure I still consume art at a healthy rate or diet, you know, so I'm watching movies, watching TV shows. I've been on, like, old TV show kicks lately, so shows that my parents watched that I didn't watch growing up. So, like, right now I'm watching NYPD Undercover just outside of, like, how old I was to be able to watch it, but. But it's so cool because the music in it, in the show is so. It was, for the time, it was super relevant. Like, they're using, like, huge records at the time. And so I was like, oh, man, that's a really cool usage of this song in this show. So things like that inspired me as I think about the intersection of what I do for TV and film.
So yeah, I would say conversations with just people, just being around people. And I'm lucky to be able to do that in my pastoral role, but also in my creative role, but then also making sure I stay tethered to art that has been created and that exists dead or alive. Caleb. You know, it's great, great sources of inspiration. But yeah, those two things are, are pretty regular patterns for me.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: That's good. What is the type of project that you would still love to be a part of?
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I love anything that kind of spans time and space.
And I just saw Sinners, which was amazing. And they. So good because it really is an amazing commentary on like blues music from, you know, the early 1900s through today and just being able to see the connection of it, but also seeing the, the way it relates to faith. Right. And so how music for a long time, like secular music was deemed evil and bad. So like anything that kind of engages and breaks, breaks down like, kind of like the, the paradigms or again, go back to what we talked about, like just the, the discomfort and being okay with the discomfort of art and learning how to be agile. So something like that, that's historical. I grew up loving movies like Gladiator, so I would love to work on stuff like that. I love anything with sports, you know, because what I do is orchestral. So I grew up playing a violin, played in orchestras, but also love hip hop, pop and so the combination of those things work really well. I would love to write, you know, the theme if they, you know, Netflix is green lighting. All these different, you know, recap, you know, the, they did the Olympics, like something like that. I would love to work on something like that where they kind of follow the dream team around and do music like that. So yeah, yeah, anything that allows me to kind of merge genres, create hybrids together for, you know, sports or action or, or history. Yeah, sign me up.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: It's cool. I like it. I like it. Awesome. Is there any spiritual advice you would give, like maybe your 25 year old self?
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Ooh, that's good.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: 25 wor that give or take.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Steward the little things. Well, I think that's something that I learned later but at the expense of a lot of, you know, wounds and heartaches and stuff. I think, you know, we become, especially having, having a child now. I think about this a lot where I become my habits and my daughter's going to become me. Right. So if I want to be a person and not even just with my daughter, but just with the people that I'm around, people I'm in the studio with, cultivating habits that can overflow outward word to. To encourage other people. So whether it's being disciplined with my time, being disciplined with my body, I think that specifically that to take care of my body, I pushed my body not only like, just from like staying up late, whatever, but, but just like eating things that allow me to be sharp. And I think about that when it comes to ministry. Right. So if the Lord is calling me to love people, love my city, what am I doing to make sure that my body is in condition to be able to do that? Well, to love my kids well. Well, just to love my co collaborators well. So yeah, take care of your body, steward your body well, Good sleep and yeah, just do the, pay attention to the little things, the little details. People see the end product, they see the big picture, but it's all the fine little details that we do. You know, you spending four hours on a 40 second bit, you know, because that 40 second bit is the glue that holds an idea together. You know, I think life is often like that as well.
[00:40:15] Speaker A: Good. That's so good. I was working on this project, I was a cinematographer and working with this director and it was this 30 second commercial and the level of detail and just constant reworking and just like thousands of notes. And it was like for the director's cut, for the client, just to see the first cut. And this someone is very successful. And I was like, I'm just realizing, oh, this is their default for every single project they do. They've kind of made the decision to only do stuff like this. Like to only. Even if they're paying nothing, it's still the same process. It's like you just have to make it as good as I possibly can. And just realizing, oh, that is like an approach that in this age of like just more content as long as you're posting every day, you know, or whatever. But to be like, no, just like to really, really dial in something, I feel like that's kind of like being what you're saying, be a good Stewart with it and to steward it.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: Well, absolutely. In the age now where things are judged in this referendum on art so quickly because we're always looking for the next thing. I feel that in music, right? So like Spotify has New Music Friday and it has just created this appetite for the next thing all the time, right. I grew up, there were songs of the summer. Now it's like you say it was the song of 2023 and people wouldn't really know because we were just overwhelmed.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Filmed it's the song of April 23rd.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: Exactly. So it's like, so that can become. I would say, for me, it can be a little discouraging. Man, I'm spending, like, four months working on this record, and people are going to make a judgment on it in 30 seconds because it's on a playlist. It's not. People don't listen to albums anymore because it's like, hey, just like, forget your album. I just want to just take the song and put this on a playlist. And so. So I've had to, again, hold that tension of, like, all right, like, I'm doing this and releasing the results because. Because at the end of the day, I'm just trying to be a good steward of what God's entrusted me to. And I want to make great art for the glory of God and for great relationships. And if it's received, great. If not, you know what? I'm going to plug back in with these people. I'm going to continue to nurture these amazing relationships and do things that I love and just trust that God will meet my needs in the process.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: That's so good. How do you decide if your art is successful?
[00:42:15] Speaker C: What's your definition of success?
[00:42:16] Speaker B: I know, right?
If you know, I could give you the pastor answer. The creative answer. Pastor answer is like, obedience. Obedience is success, right? As long as I'm doing what I'm called to do, I'm supposed to do.
That is the success. Faithfulness is the success. And I've learned that even just in working out, right. Since I'm trying to take care of my body, it's like, hey, the win is just showing up and doing it every day. And then when you look up six months from now, 12 months from now, hopefully there's some fruit from that. But that's not the, you know, won't be. Then it's a lifestyle. And, you know, as far as there's. Obviously, there's, you know, mainstream metrics for success, like awards and, you know, and you get. For me, I get quarterly checks based on stuff that's used on tv. So I guess I could say, oh, that was a successful song because it got used on NBA, TNT, you know, 12 times. And so, yeah, for me, it's faithfulness, obedience. And then as long as I'm providing for my family through what I do, you know, I can say, you know, what I'm stewarding well. And I would like to think that there's a success that is rooted in just continuing to stay plugged into my calling.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: That's awesome. And lastly, are there any, like, resources you mentioned? A few kind of mentors, but like any resources, books, or even mentioned some habits that you would kind of recommend to, let's say a believer who feels like God is calling them to create?
[00:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say get plugged into a local church. You know, if I'm completely honest, I think it's easy to default community to the people you create with and you're around all the time. I think that's just, that's, you know, whether it's creative, whether you're working in Wall street or whatever, you're around people 40 hours a week, 60 hours a week. So there's a natural community. But I think be intentional about cultivating community that's untethered from what you do so people can love you. I think you just protect your yourself against the transactional rhythms of relationships. So it'd be my encouragement. And then, yeah, just read books like Deep Work by Calder Port are amazing. Just like how to in an age of distraction, really zero in on like, what matters most. I think four hour work week was one that was really valuable to me. It's like, hey, you got it up there. Yeah. So it's like for me, it's like, hey, if I only get three things done today, what are those three things? You know, because if I don't have a plan for the day, then everything's just going to wash up on shore and I'm going to be trying to grab everything. So, like, hey, plan the night before, you know. How well I do my nights is going to determine how well I do my mornings and how well I do my mornings are going to set the course for the rest of my day. And so just, yeah, be intentional. And there's amazing books like the two that we mentioned that can help you do that.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: It's good. So good.
Awesome, man. Well, can I just say a quick prayer for you real quick?
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you guys for having me on. Absolutely.
[00:44:42] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Lord, I just thank you for Alex. I thank you that you were at work in his life. I thank you that you have brought him a family and a community, a calling. I just pray your blessing over that, Lord. I pray that everywhere he goes in those conversations and those relationships, Lord, would be glorifying to you, Father. And in that meaning and that purpose, Lord, it would just light him up, Lord, that he would delight in it, Lord, and just feel your. Your calling within it. I pray that he would make beautiful, honest work that would connect with people, awaken imaginations, Lord. And be a blessing to you, Father. Lord, I pray that over all of us, Father. And I just thank you for this time together, Lord. And Jesus. Jesus name. Amen.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Amen. You guys are amazing.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:45:20] Speaker C: So if anyone's interested in learning more about your music or keeping up with what you're doing, what's the best way for them to do that?
[00:45:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Website is always active. Www.alexanderhitchens.com highly encourage the website. I've gotten work because I have a website like that's I tell artists all the time, put your work somewhere. And then Instagram. I share a lot of stuff that I do that gets used on TV and film on my Instagram at Akhitchens. So. At Akhitch Kitchens.
[00:45:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:45:47] Speaker C: Well, thanks for spending the time with us today, Alex. As a father and producer, time is precious. We know. And a husband. So thanks for spending some of your budget on us.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: Ah, you guys are good. Thank you, Caleb. Thank you, Nathan. You guys, this is amazing. Thank you for letting me be a part of this intersection of art and faith.
