Brian Tetsuro Ivie | Filmmaker

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with the talented Brian Tetsuro Ivy. Brian is a gifted filmmaker, producer. His documentary Emmanuel is a heart wrenching, beautiful, but somehow life giving story. And actually want to share some of the trailer with you guys now just to give you a taste. [00:00:20] Speaker B: When he spoke to me, I was on the floor looking up at him from under the table. He just stopped and he said, did I shoot you yet? And I said, no. And he said, I'm not going to. I'm going to leave you here to tell a story. Seven trees. [00:00:39] Speaker A: I'm outside the Emmanuel AME Church. [00:00:41] Speaker C: We do know that several people have been shot. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Barren, strange fruit. And we close our eye to pray that when he lit up the room. Blood on the leaves. [00:00:53] Speaker C: Bear with me. Okay, how many shots has he fired? [00:00:55] Speaker B: He's reloading. [00:00:57] Speaker C: He's reloading. [00:00:58] Speaker B: And blood at the roots. Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze. [00:01:10] Speaker C: Racism is as American as apple pie. [00:01:12] Speaker A: And that's why I don't understand why so many people are shocked you had. [00:01:16] Speaker B: The nerve to get on TV and say, this is the holy city. [00:01:18] Speaker C: What's holy about it? [00:01:20] Speaker B: Hang in from the poplar trees. Exchange fruit. [00:01:28] Speaker A: Hang in. [00:01:31] Speaker C: Shape. It gives, you know, I forgive you. My family forgive you. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Some people see the family's forgiveness as submission. But that act of forgiving people is the greatest act of love that one could ever experience. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Cry. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah, we sat down to watch it and we couldn't get back up in a good way. You don't have to be a theologian, you know, to see God at work in that. But Brian has many great projects. He's also a producer on the recent film Wildcat and the film about Flannery o' Connor, a famous Catholic author who, you know, she wrote short stories about darkness, humor, faith, and it's starring Maya Hawk. Really cool project. Yeah. So he's just someone who clearly loves the Lord, clearly put a lot of thought into how to be an artist who pleases the Lord and kind of put systems in place to do that. And yeah, it kind of does his work as worship, I would say. So without further ado, let's, let's jump right in. My wife and I were watching. I know it's been out for a while, but Emmanuel, I was like, we gotta watch this together a while back. And I was just like. That's when I messaged you originally. I was just like, this is so good. And it, it's, it says so much without. I don't know how to describe it, but it's like Emma What a beautiful example and what a beautiful way, like, walking this line and this tension and anyway, we just. I had to hit you up, so. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Man. Wow. Such a. Such a pleasure. And. And that's so encouraging. You just. You never know who's watching anything you create, and you hope it's a positive thing in people's lives. So really, really grateful to hear that. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. I have some questions I kind of want to go through and ask you. And so much of what we talk about is, like, the. The faith element of art and of creating and how those go hand in hand. I've always been kind of amazed. I feel like there's tons of stuff on filmmaking and then there's tons of stuff and sermons on faith, you know, but it's like, I feel like there's this kind of this black, like, dead zone in between where a lot of pastors might be like, I don't know, just acknowledge the Lord, you know? So, yeah, I would love to dive into it more. And, like, some of those questions I'm just curious about is like, when did God first feel real to you? Like, when do you have a moment that comes to mind? [00:03:51] Speaker C: Man, what a great first question to ask. I was in college, so I think, you know, grew up around religious activity, being culturally Catholic, I would say. And in college I definitely felt like I was looking for something transcendent and. And I think a lot of artists do that, and they sort of try to find God in that work and that expression and that exploration. I think when God became real to me, I would say I had to kind of confront my. My own emptiness first. I think that probably was the main thing that came before God. It was almost impossible for God to feel real until I felt. Felt empty. And I sort of started to see the vanity of life, of my own ambitions, of the things that I thought were most valuable and important. And then, I don't know, there was just one moment. I think it was for sure a mosaic of just different things. I think that God felt real to me first in the lives of other people I met when I was at usc. I was in a film school. But then I started to attend these 7, 27 meetings. They're just campus per se meetings. And the community was just so alive in a different way without any kind of, like, uppers or any kind of, like, other things being injected into the experience. It just. It just was meaningful. And I think that's when God started to feel real to me. And then in my own life, you know, as I started to turn away from certain things. Pornography addiction, sexual addiction, certain things in relationships. I felt like as I went in a new direction, God became more and more real. Like I was. Maybe I was just more available to God, who was always present. And so, you know, in that hole I found myself in, it felt like God filled that and then has just been building on top of that foundation ever since. [00:05:40] Speaker A: That's cool. I relate to that a lot. I felt like I grew up, like, I would say I grew up, like, knowing the Lord pretty early on, but I. One way I would describe it is like, I feel like I always heard the good news of the gospel, which is awesome. I feel like a lot of people haven't heard, like, that you are forgiven and more loved than you ever imagined. But, like, Tim Keller's talked about the bad news of the gospel that comes first, which I think is like, the. Oh, we're also, like, more broken than we thought, too, you know, we're in need more than we thought, you know? And, yeah, I was, like, trapped, depressed, stuck in bed forever, you know? And I do think similarly to you. I felt like it was. I was like, I don't really even know if this stuff is technically a sin or whatever, but I'm so miserable that I'm just gonna treat it literal and, like, go for it and just try to do this. And I felt like I couldn't successfully do it, but I do feel like God blessed that attempt. You know what I mean? I felt like I was like. He became real to me more and more. It's almost like my foggy eyes were becoming clear and becoming more alive, you know? So that's cool. I love that. [00:06:46] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So, two. One question. When I was. So I did this. We're in post production on the short film, and it was kind of like this project that I was like, okay, I'm going to, like, really try to do this with God, and I don't know what that means. [00:07:01] Speaker C: That's cool. [00:07:01] Speaker A: I want to try to write with God. I want to outline with God. I want to shoot. I want to, like. I'll slow the whole process down if I need to, like, keep bringing it back to Him. That's kind of been this experiment fair, but a. I felt like there's. I almost heard nobody talking about what that looks like practically, or other people's experiences. And I was just like, can the Holy Spirit play a role in writing or in shooting? And I was curious to hear other people, especially people, like, whose work I find beautiful and Gripping. Talk about that idea, like, and it's okay if you're like, I don't know. That's the way I think about it. But I'm just curious if you have any experience, any thoughts on that thought, man. [00:07:40] Speaker C: I mean, I would say, you know, it's easy to get scared off by that idea. I remember, you know, I didn't. I didn't grow up in the church proper or like, certainly not in the evangelical tradition. So there was no sort of like, conflating of like, my vocation and this like, Great Commission thing. Like, there was. It was just about like, making films. Like, that's what I cared about. And so I think when I became a Christian, I sort of like went hard in the other direction where I was like, everything I do has to be like a perfect gospel presentation. Otherwise it's like, totally meaningless. And so I think I had to sort of like walk through that process. And I think along the way, you like, you're tempted to throw the baby out with the bath water. Be like, well, okay, hold on a second. Like, I don't want to make like, cheesy, categorically Christian things. So I think what it became more for me was like an effort to personally consecrate myself before God. And then the work would sort of flow from that deep place instead of like, trying to find a way to like, calculate this like, Christian movie thing. So it was more about, like, being Christian than making Christian. And I think that that was sort of the first thing. Practically what that looks like for me now is I work primarily with like, non believers, quote unquote. But I still do a ton of like, that consecration stuff. So I have a personal prayer team that I assemble every time I'm going to go make a work of art. That's, that's like an essential part of my process. So I'll call on like seven to 10 people. I create a text thread and I'm like, hey, I need you. I need God in this process. This is hard. I'm trying to humble myself and be like, hey, I don't want to just create self expression. I want something that's truly beautiful to exist. And so that, that's for me, where I find my footing in like, allowing God to guide the process. And then, you know, it's the balance of, like, you do that and you find your like, intuitive kind of like interaction with how is God speaking to me? But also the rigor of like, this is a technical thing that you're doing. Like, it's, it's a craft, so you can't just finger paint. And I think a lot of Christians assume that's like, what it means to work with the Holy Spirit. And I, I don't think that's true. I think the Holy Spirit can work in systems and through other people. And, and so I've tried to create those systems that are like God breathed or whatever you want to say. And that's been fruitful for me. So I hope. I don't know. [00:10:07] Speaker A: What a cool answer. I love hearing that. Like, I love the idea of having that, like, prayer starting and I love the idea that God can work through systems. I think, like, yeah, anyone who's experimented with being like, all right, God, you're in charge of my art. Like, it feel like it starts with like, oh, I'm not hearing anything. And then it starts with like a heavy handed, cheesy gospel, you know, like manipulated into artwork, you know, I've been there, you know. [00:10:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And I get that, that pressure. People feel like this pressure to be like, well, this takes so long making a movie in particular, like, I envy musicians who can like, write a song and it's like, just out, you know, So I get, I do understand the burden Christians feel to like, communicate their faith. I think what I often find though is like, that communication is often very superficial when you're feeling like you're, you're forcing it into existence. Like, the harder work to do and the better work is to like, is to really draw near to God yourself. And I think in so doing, it's like the deep calls to deep thing starts to happen. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:10] Speaker C: For, for you and the audience. [00:11:12] Speaker A: So good. So good. Yeah. I wrote down at some point, I was like, as I was doing this, like, perhaps it's more, more important than making art about God is to make art with God. [00:11:25] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:11:25] Speaker A: You know, and I think it's like to, to do it with him. Like, it's an act of worship. Like when a lady pours the oil out on his feet. How wasteful, how useless. You could argue, you know, and it's like you could say the same thing about making something beautiful, but I just think God is a little bigger and more interesting, you know? So anyway, that's awesome. That's cool. That's a great answer. I can't wait for people to hear that. [00:11:47] Speaker C: Amen. [00:11:49] Speaker A: One thing I was asking, and I like, I'm never trying to like, throw anyone under the bus, so I won't say any specific names, but like, what do you think stands in the way of some of the faith. Faith based work out there. [00:12:02] Speaker C: Well, first of all, I appreciate the question. I'm trying to get better at not. Not also like bashing other people's work because, you know, look, I'm. I'm certainly not where I want to be artistically, creatively, whatnot. And I give people the benefit of the doubt. It's sort of. They're doing their best all the time. Right. You know, people are trying to create good work where it's just hard to make a movie. I think there's a lot of things, but let me just maybe focus on a few. I was at a screening of a film, I will not say the name of the film. And at the end of the film, the credits rolled and the movie wasn't for me. Let me just say, say it like that it was, but it was a very explicitly faith based movie. And there's a pastor there, a prominent pastor, and. And he prayed this prayer, which I remember very vividly. He was like, God, this is just a tool. Use it. And I remember thinking to myself, like, man, that is totally not what this is. You know, And I think that is like the crux of the issue that a lot of Christians maybe are like, trying to articulate for themselves, but they don't have good examples. And what this pastor meant, obviously was like, there's more important things than movies, so hopefully this is like, good for people in the world. And it's like, of course that's totally true. But what he was communicating inadvertently was like, this is just a means to an end. It's not an end in and of itself. And it really has no value apart from its efficacy as like a work of evangelism, which I find to be like, bad theology, first of all, and very unhelpful to artists. So the first thing that stands in the way of Christians and Christian films is that we've conflated evangelism with art. And I think that's like, totally wrong. I think, as you've said, I think art is much more like praise and worship and like the prophetic tradition. Like, it's. There's. There's this great line in Francis Schaeffer's Art in the Bible where he talks about, like, he said this very short line. You can miss it if you're not reading carefully. And he says that too can be appraised to God. And he's talking about just like a love song that somebody wrote when they fell in love for the first time. And I think that's in the Bible. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Or in his book. [00:14:06] Speaker C: That's in the book. Francis Schaefer's book, which I would recommend to people. It's very short, wonderful book. I think seeing like you're saying with this, the, the oil or the perfume, like, it's an end and of itself, it's beautiful. It's a praise to God. And it doesn't have to be this tool or this other thing that sort of like converts people. So I think that stands in the way, the films being good and beautiful. The other thing is that I think, to be honest, at least in the evangelical sort of like film world, people are just not students of great cinema. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:44] Speaker C: They don't watch a lot of. Certainly not any European cinema, no great American cinema. Nothing before the year 1998. It's like, I think it's very hard to create great work when it's sort of just an echo chamber of, like, this Christian film is better than that other Christian film. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:00] Speaker C: It's like, why are we. Why are we comparing ourselves to each other? We should be comparing ourselves to the greatest works of art and trying to be better. So I think that stands in the way. And. And I think the fact that it's a genre at all stands in the way. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I was gonna say, should this exist? [00:15:14] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not great. So that's, that's just. Those are a few things. There's a lot more I could say that's good. [00:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I thought too, like, I'm okay. Like, they're like sermons, reverse engineer sermons. And I feel like that's totally fine to exist. But I think it's when once they start asking the question, why isn't this as good, or what's, you know, I think that's. That's where those answers come in. Like, there's plenty of room for content to exist, but I think as far as, like an act of worship or like, what stands the way, that I think there's something in there that's interesting. [00:15:44] Speaker C: Well, I think that there's a. There's a thorny sort of idea in, in like Tarkovsky's tradition where he, he basically says, like, when something's out of balance, it's no longer art. And I think essentially that's what you see in faith based films. They're just, they're it's. It's in some way, it's just not art anymore. It's just affirmation of values. [00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:06] Speaker C: And I think when something has to be affirmative, it has to be affirmation of value. It can't challenge it can't provoke, it can't really do. It can't live up to its highest potential. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:16] Speaker C: And which is why I've chosen to make documentaries, primarily because it gives me the latitude, as a Christian too, to sort of like communicate more without it feeling like I'm being didactic or sort of like Bible thumping propaganda. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. One of the things I was. I was at this meeting of. Somehow I ended up there. I don't even know how I got there. But the Christian filmmakers, strictly faith based, and they're like, all right, guys, we want to level up and this is great. All great people, but they were making a list, like a dry erase board of how to make it better. And I was. Eventually I like raised my hand and I was like, they're like, oh, you know, cinematography. And I'm like, sure, sure, all these things are good. And I was like, but also the, the scripts, like the stories, and they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, like the, the stories, like the writing, but, you know, which I don't judge anything. But I think there's. I think too. It's like so much starts from the roots. And I think too, like, like you're saying about that being a student, a film. I think like writing is not just like someone can just. It's a skill, you know, it's a talent, it's an art. And so I think that's an element I've seen at Play as well. And you've seen good examples of it as well. But I just. Yeah, it's one thing I was thinking, even like with Prodigal, one of the things, their goals is to create the demand for these types of scripts. I've met tons being in la, I've actually met tons of writers that are talented who love the Lord. Like the gospel changed their life. And I'm like, oh, why haven't you written anything? Do you have a desire to? And they're like, I do, actually. But like the way I would write it, the honest way I would write it, there's like zero demand for it, you know, so Prodigal is just doing this like, like 100k giveaway for like the best, best script that is like that, you know, and like no strings attached, just to help create the demand and kind of curate these scripts. That's one thing they hope to do. But jumping back in, I was curious too. Like, do you have any, like spiritual routines or practices that you've kind of like made a part of your life that have Been fruitful for you or. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I fight technology. I fight. I'm sort of a Neoluddite. I mean, honestly, I. I turn off my phone every night from about 7pm till I'm done praying the next morning after I drop my daughter at school. So I really work to keep my soul intact, you know, I guess I don't know if that's the right way of saying it, but I think that's, you know, everybody has to live in the context in which they're in and try to figure out their rhythms that make sense. Some people live in a very nois world. Some people live in Montana or whatever. I live in la. For me, the greatest fear I have is, like, not being able to hear God, not being able to. Not living from, like, the soul level, but sort of just being shallow and just living from ambition. So I. I do that. I also imperfectly but, like, keep the Sabbath. So I really try to, like, shut down, seek God, not work on Saturdays. And I think for me, that's been, like, a really good rhythm to keep me human, to keep me available to what, whatever God's trying to teach me, which may or may not have anything to do with my artwork. And I think that's been really, really sweet. And then I keep, like, some kind of either spiritual book or scripture in every room of my house. So, like, sounds silly, but, like, it's always, like, an arm's length. Like, I can. I can reach out and grab something. So I'm not grabbing my phone, but I'm like, if I. If I have a lull, like, I have, like, the psalms, the alabaster psalms, you know, coffee table book, and I can just pick that up. And I think those sorts of things are, like, the atomic habits of it all of, like, it's got to be easy and accessible to me because the paths to, like, things that are bad for your soul are, like, really smooth. So I try to make those not as smooth. And then this path to, like, God's word and other things, like, as smooth as possible. And then, you know, I'm in a church community here in la. As much as that's, like, imperfect and hard at times. Like, I'll always stay in community around people who push me in the right direction, help me see what God's doing and who he is. So those are some things. [00:20:19] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah, it's funny, my wife and I, we felt. We got married and we're like. We're, like, looking at the Bible, like, oh, it looks like it's a command to be in community and kind of like just from the like, all right. Like, she's like hardcore about just like going, I, I am, I am too. But I feel like she's like, if it says it, we just do it. I'm like, great, absolutely. And. But because of that, we're like, okay, we'll start going to this community group. And you know, we went there and we're like, people are like a little, you know, strange, but some of them are nice. We're all strange. You know, think much of it. But we just kept going and like now we're like eight years in. [00:20:59] Speaker C: Wow. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Hosted our house. We have dinner like every Tuesday with everybody. And it's like, man, it's like so fruitful. And like the friendships. But more than the friendships, it's like the growing in the Lord together and watching God work in each person over eight years, it's like teaches me more about the Lord than almost anything, you know. And so I totally agree. That community element is. It's kind of like I feel like so many spiritual things are like under the surface. Like when you look at them, they're like, yeah, yeah, sure, that's probably good. And then as you do them, it's like, man, what fruit comes from a woman? But you talk about your Saturdays. So like, what. How does that work out practically? Like, you just tried to do your best. Like if a project comes up, are you like, oh, I'm like, this is what I do. But I'm like, oh, I'm. I'm currently have a hold on that day, you know, and then try to get them to push it or like, you know, or how does, how's it work practically? [00:21:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's. I normal. So let's say I don't have any job stuff going on. Everybody in my life that I work with on a regular basis knows that I, I practice the Sabbath. Like I celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday. So some people still text me, which I'm like, at this point I'm like, bro, like, you know, I'm not going to text you back, but it's all good. But yeah, I just don't interact with any of that. Like there's Even if it's somebody really important or influential, like, I'm just not going to hit you back on that day. I really try to get up and get my family going. It's been a lot harder with little kids. I have a three year old and unfold. So it's not like, you know, I'm just Sitting there in the lotus position or whatever. I definitely tried to journal on that day. Like, actually write with my hands, not type. Do, like, embodied human things. And we go to breakfast as a family. We try to. My wife and I try to have time to really talk about how we're actually doing. So some things are, like, really spiritual. Other things are just kind of like time and margin and just like being still and quiet. And then if a job opportunity comes up, it's definitely like, it depends, you know. So I think that's where I give myself the grace of like, okay, I'm shooting this movie, we may have to do this. But I'm also going to practice that rhythm another day that week or whenever I can. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like that's. It can be. I don't want to say rare, but I do think that it's in la, even for believers. It's like we're all like, oh, it's so expensive to even be here. It's so easy to build this habit at a young age. Or just being like, just take everything or just, you know, work on each day. That's been something I felt like the Lord put on my heart was like, at least for Sundays and being like, just, you know, I always saying this out loud. So now clients, if they hear it, will know, but I'm always like, oh, I'm on hold that day. And always just start. Start there, you know, and so whatever it takes. Yeah. Because I am on hold. I have something on my calendar. [00:23:47] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's. That's the thing, though. It's like, I actually think. I mean, we. We both know this, but like, God's built rhythms into the world. Good for us, you know, and so when we live into those. I think you're a better artist. I'm certainly a better artist and a better father, better husband. [00:24:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:03] Speaker C: And it's. It's never easy. Like, it can be a privilege. Right. It's a privileged thing to be able to do that. Some people have to work every day, so respect for that. But if you have the ability, man, it's just good for your deepest self and. And you end up being. I feel more creative, certainly more prayerful. And it's sort of like, yeah, it's worshipful. It's a. It's a sacrifice. Put that on the altar of, like, this day, I'm not going to be as productive, but that's okay. [00:24:28] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I think it's some way of, like, keeping, like, to give, you know, to tithe and to give These days, it's like a way of taking something that could easily control you and then to be a blessing instead of something that runs you, you know? That's good, right? So you have, how many did you say you have? One daughter or two kids? I didn't hear what you said. [00:24:49] Speaker C: I very much have two kids. [00:24:51] Speaker A: Two kids means I do as well, so. Nice. And you said they're nine in what ages? [00:24:57] Speaker C: Three and eight months, so. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Oh, eight months, okay. So you're not even sleeping these days then. [00:25:04] Speaker C: Today is like, I mean, you're getting as much as you can get out of me today. I apologize. It's like this. No, you're Long night last night. [00:25:10] Speaker A: No, I hear you. Okay. So I have a 5 year old and an 8 year old. When it first jumped into fatherhood, I was like, lord, I, I can't spend time with you. Like, there's no way to spend time with you. And I remember I would like, you know, go to the bathroom to try to pray and then they'd be banging on the door and I felt like, I felt like the Lord was like showing me like, I want you, like as a spiritual practice. Like, you know, monks would, I'm getting a little too philosophical here, but monks would like have these prayer times and then they would be like, incorporate this into your cleaning. Incorporate this into. And like, almost intentionally, they would start setting up these distractions to try to join them as one, you know. And I felt like the Lord was kind of like, do it with them. Even though it's going to be like it's going to feel like nothing's happening. It's going to feel like you're not connecting, but it's, it's fruitful. Sometimes I like put on a worship video and just be like, you guys dance and we'll kind of worship, you know, just trying to find a way to do it together. [00:26:08] Speaker C: I mean that's, that's creativity. I mean that to me, it's like I. The domestic monastery idea of like, you know, your child cries, that's the bell. Like, you must love right now. You have no choice. That's, that's a spiritual discipline. That's something that creates spiritual vitality. And so having kids, yeah, it's been the hardest thing ever, but it's also been the best thing for my spiritual life. And it's, it's changed me a lot. And so, yeah, though integrating all those things, like, for sure takes time, but once you do, it's like really beautiful. I've had some amazing prayer times of Prayer, just like rocking my daughter to sleep when she couldn't sleep. Stuff like that. [00:26:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. It's beautiful. Speaking of moments, do you feel like there are any patterns to moments that you find like inspiration? And I kind of mean in the context of filmmaking or stories, but it really could be in anything. But do you. Have you noticed any, like, oh, it's like when I'm doing this that ideas come or it's when I'm, you know, anything like that. [00:27:09] Speaker C: It's definitely when I'm quiet, still not chasing something. So my friend, I went to dinner with a friend, an incredible filmmaker and he, he had sort of taken like a couple years off from the game to sort of just write and his reasoning, which struck me and I'll never forget what he said. He basically was like, I used to be driven to things, now I'm just drawn to things. And I thought that was like a really helpful distinction because I think, I think. And he wasn't, you know, a religious person. He just had realized that like the things that he was drawn to and he was drawn to them and the creative process was like really fruitful and beautiful. And then the things he was driven to sort of just like curved inward on him and it just was unhealthy. So I think as far as me being inspired in the right way, that's like lasting. Yeah. Not in a hurry. I'm still. A lot of times it happens when I'm reading the newspaper so I get the physical newspaper still I. This is like I told you and I get inspired by LA Times. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Which one? [00:28:11] Speaker C: I get the. The Wall Street Journal. [00:28:12] Speaker A: Wall Street Journal. [00:28:13] Speaker C: So the weekend edition of the Wall Street Journal has kind of like everything you need to know, what's going on in the world in every sector. So that for me is like I'm just still reading, not trying to chase down a story, but just like trying to be inspired that way. And I think that's kind of the pattern I can identify. And then, you know, sometimes it still takes so long to realize those things, but when they start from that like deeper quiet place, then I think when they finally exist, they're like permanent in some way in a different way. [00:28:41] Speaker A: So cool, man. I love hearing every. I can't wait for these to come out. I love hearing everybody's answers. Like all these talented faith driven artists answering that question. Everyone answers so differently. It's cool. So you talked about the idea of like chasing, being driven versus drawn and then may. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts I feel like this is something. I feel like I grew up in a very like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Like my dad like, was a rancher turned doctor because he just had to figure out to pay for the six kids he had. But so that's kind of the mentality Oklahoma vibes. Oh, Mervish Law drive. Like at like age six, he's like, all right, what are our goals? What are our steps towards these goals, you know, to all of us, you know, which is good. I'm thankful for all that. But I've also found that my relationship to ambition as I've like sort of surrendered to the Lord and like less self stuff, what's getting a little bit blurry and I'd love to hear thoughts on this is like ambition and your relationship to ambition. And maybe that's not the right word for it, but I feel like there's a certain Christian that feels like, oh no, this is, this is self serving, so I should just do nothing or not do nothing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. What's your reaction to this? [00:30:01] Speaker C: Of course. I mean, look, Flannery o' Connor struggled with that her whole life. She wanted to be great, but she also wanted to be good. You know, it's. It's like since time immemorial, Christians that are artists in particular of faith, they struggle with this and I struggle with this. I think it's partially because, you know, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in everything kind of more significant than yourselves. And I think that's true. I mean, it's like, what do you want me to say? I think the way I've sort of what I've come to at this point in my life, and I reserve the right to be wrong or for this to evolve, but ambition is just not great fuel. I think it's like, it just doesn't actually get you to the place that you really long to be, which is a place of like deep communion with God, deep meaning, deep relationship, because it just curves in, like, it doesn't curve out. So for me it's like that Blaise Pascal idea of, of like devotion, a devotional act is much more beautiful and sustainable as like motivation than ambition and, and delight's pretty good too, especially when it comes to the arts. So for me, I've just realized that ambition is sort of like, has fewer dimensions because it's, it is so sort of like self indulgent and devotion is, is a better way for me because I think to myself, okay, so devotion means if you really care, like, you want something to be great, you want what you're creating to be beautiful and excellent, but at the same time, like, you're not going to treat people poorly because it's not just about you. So that, to me, is, like, just a better way of framing it because you don't want to tell an artist, like, hey, it doesn't really matter if it's good. It doesn't really matter if people think you're good. That's just, like, a recipe for disaster. And a lot of Christians think that way. They're like, well, God's going to use it. No. Even if it's bad? Well, it's like, all right, but is that, like, really what we're trying to do is, like, reflect back to God, like, our ease and comfort in, like, not giving everything you can. So I think at least if that makes sense, that's, like, where I'm at with it. [00:32:03] Speaker A: No. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I'm drawn. Even when you say, like, God to use it, if it's bad, I'm like, I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think about, like, the idea of a burnt sacrifice of, like, a. Like, the difference between Cain and Abel was one sacrifice was, like, legit and the other one was not legit enough. [00:32:21] Speaker C: Wait, man. [00:32:22] Speaker A: From the outside, you couldn't tell, but God, like, did not. Like, you know, And I don't mean to say, like, if you do bad, God's upset, you know, but I think it's like, in your heart. It's like God judges the heart, you know? And so I don't quite know how to connect on these dots, but I feel like there's something there in that world. [00:32:37] Speaker C: You know, I think we. We don't take seriously enough that, like, the quality of our work, because it is a medium of communication. It's. It's. It is reflecting to people, like, the quality of God, the quality of our faith, the quality of the ideas and the truth claims of what we believe. You know, it's not a coincidence that a lot of people are disinterested and disillusioned and feel like this is all a fraud, you know, because what they see in the way it's communicated and the way it's presented to the world just doesn't feel real, you know, And. And a lot of that is because it's sloppily made and because we haven't done the. The hard work to. To make it something beautiful because that. That requires A lot of labor. [00:33:17] Speaker A: A lot. [00:33:19] Speaker C: And. And so for me, I actually take that responsibility very seriously. And sometimes it takes longer. There's no shortcuts. But I think we should be sobered by that. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:30] Speaker C: Way we're talking about God presenting, it influences people. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. I heard Rick Rubin talking about the idea of. You've probably seen this. The audience comes last. But how he goes into how, like, as you do the best that you can do, it's an act of worship. And I was kind of, like, jarred me when I heard that because it felt so true. And yet I had. I haven't really heard anyone quite say it like that. [00:33:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:58] Speaker A: And I felt to be true because I've always felt the minute. Like, as we edit stuff and work on stuff, we make a thousand decisions. And I'm like, often I hear, well, the audience won't get it or the audience won't. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. But, like, people aren't really fully paying attention. You need to, like, make it more clear, repeated, and, you know, and they can do the same thing in writing. Like, as I'm editing, I'm like, oh, I said this three times because I thought they wouldn't. Weren't paying attention. I think where that comes into the spiritual side is like, oh, I think the minute you like the side that you're smarter than your audience, I feel like you are. What am I looking for? It's almost like it's becoming not an act of worship anymore in some ways. [00:34:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:39] Speaker A: And. Yeah. So, yeah, this is kind of verbal processing here. Poke holes in it. But I'm curious for you. Do you feel like in your work as far as, like, keeping the audience in mind? Like, I know there is, because obviously we do film stuff. Like, there's definitely an audience. And there are times that we've seen something so much that we're like, everyone's gonna get this. And it's like, no. No one's gonna get. You know, so, yeah, I guess what do you. Is there. This is more of, like, a craft practical thing. But, like, what's your approach to that? [00:35:04] Speaker C: Well, as I said earlier, it's like, I do create systems. So for me, it's like, feedback loops are really important. I have, like, a small community, people that read everything I write that give me harsh feedback first. And you sort of like, move out from there to, like, okay, it's finished product, sort of. Here's all these people that I trust that are great artists themselves. They give me feedback mostly to just not so that suddenly it's like no longer something that's mine, but so that whatever I'm trying to do is actually landing and connecting with people. You know, the worst thing would be, like, it's just a diary entry. Like, Rick Rubin talks about it that way too, which I. Look, Rick Rubin's the man. [00:35:42] Speaker A: And he's also talking about songs. [00:35:44] Speaker C: Yeah, and songs in particular, I think, are different. I think with a film, you are spending years and years of your life. You want to make sure whatever you're trying to say is also be clear. So I do take that in. But then, you know, you get to a certain point where, like, okay, I've gotten all that feedback, but now I still need to make sure that, like, this moves me. And so you just. You walk through that, you know, process. Yeah. [00:36:10] Speaker A: What type of knowing that you work on stuff. I know you mentioned. What kind of film would you still love to make? Whether it be a doc or a fiction story or is there something that you have some things that are on your. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm about to go shoot a film. My first scripted feature in New York in a month or so. So that film. Sure, I can tell you about it. You're here. Heard it here first. It's a road movie. And the question at the center of the movie is, what are we? What is consciousness? So it's. The log line is. Is. Forgive me. The log line is a young woman and an old man embark on a road trip to preserve his consciousness at an experimental facility. So it's kind of like the Holdover's Tone, Eternal Sunshine and Spotless Mind, Mars and the Real Girl, this, like, Odd Couple road trip movie. And I would say it's like a gateway drug to spirituality, discussing whether we have a soul or not. That's. Which I think is unfortunately like the question of the day in some ways. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:10] Speaker C: So I. I am making the Alexander Payne movie I've always wanted to make. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:37:16] Speaker C: And then I think, moving forward, I would love to make a fantasy. You know, I think because God feels so domesticated in America and it feels that our faith system feels like it cannot be applied to the cosmos in a way that's like. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like an elective we add to something. [00:37:33] Speaker C: Yeah. It just feels so. Like it holds only such a narrow part of reality that I would love to. Is zoom out and make something that makes God feel big to people and all encompassing. Big enough for our problems, for war and. And I don't know our greatest fears. So yeah, I don't know what that would look like, but I'd love to do something like that. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like genre is a great. It's one of the great tools for getting to have those conversations in a way that it's not only entertaining but like feel actually it almost feels more appropriate to how it actually feels, you know? [00:38:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker A: I don't know if you've seen Wild. Have you seen Wild Robot the animated film? [00:38:12] Speaker C: Haven't yet. I gotta shoot that. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you should take your. Your kiddo. But to me it was like actually really beautiful. I ended up seeing all the animated movies because my kids, but especially I would say is maybe more for parents and the kids just. It captures the epic of parenting and like the intense self sacrifice, you know, that goes into it in this really special way. And I was like, oh man, this works so much better in this genre than it would. It's like let me film, you know, a parent and a kid only, you know, I just like it complimented so. [00:38:48] Speaker C: Well, if I may, what you said I think is really profound because I think that's why I'm drawn to it too is because we have a suspicion, but there's more to life than what we could see. Right. That's right. And. And it's that God hangover. And so you're right to say that like that actually captures our real experience more than this sort of like gritty indie movie. That. Which is mostly what I make now, but same in a way that's. It's. Yeah, it's more, it's multidimensional. Literally sometimes. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker C: And I, I think that's something that clearly people want to see. You know, it's no, no coincidence. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll keep asking. I got a few more questions here. But this is like a strictly practical. I mean, I guess it's kind of practical. Not really. But is there any spiritual advice that you would give to like maybe like your 25 year old self? I'm not sure how old you are, but you know, it gives you some little time. [00:39:45] Speaker C: Not, not 25, I mean so 27. So much, so much spiritual advice to my 25 year old self. In no particular order. I would say live the questions, not just the answers. That, that would be a really big piece of advice I would give myself, I think. [00:40:06] Speaker A: And how. Give me an example of like how to live a question. I think I have a thought on it. But yeah, give me a. [00:40:11] Speaker C: First and foremost, just ask the questions. You know, I. I think you sort of hit certain points in your faith where you're like, I shouldn't have these questions anymore, like this, this shouldn't nag at me. And it does. And then you sort of shove it down. I think, I wish I would have done that more then because I think I would have made some different decisions. And I think living those questions. Yeah. Begins there. And then you sort of walk that out with other people. A lot of living the question means interacting with people that aren't Christians. Honestly, like not being in the bubble. That's a big part of it. Because our faith can feel very prescriptive to people. Unless you've lived, you know, all the other sides of it and all the possibilities. I would also tell my 25 year old self to beware of a Christianity quote, unquote, that helps you primarily see the emptiness and the ugliness of everything instead of the possibility of everything. I think that's something I see a lot in people still. And I don't think everybody graduates from that place where they sort of just look around and they think. I remember when I first came to faith, I was like, people will be like, that's that he's such a good guy, like talking about somebody be like, well, they're not a good guy. They're obviously bad, they're fallen and they. So you. I'm, I'm suspicious of that way of seeing the world now. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah, kind of like that's the only, the bad news of the gospel. That you're more broken without the good news. That you're more loved and redeemed than you thought too. Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker C: And that people are made in the image of God still whether or not they believe what you believe. And I think that's what I mean by possibility. Not that everything's just good, but like that's the emphasis. And yeah, beware of being too harsh with people. And then my 25 year old artist self, I would say, yeah, don't, don't feel so much pressure to put everything you've ever believed into everything you make. Don't feel the pressure of trying to espouse all these gospel principles and dogma. You know, feel the freedom to, to worship God through your work and feel his pleasure. Tell myself that. [00:42:12] Speaker A: So good. I'm trying not to step over what you're saying because it's so good. Amazing. You mentioned the Francis Schaefer book, is that right? [00:42:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Just any resources or habits that you kind of recommend for like essentially people and this. I hate using the term journey, but you Know what I'm saying? People who are like, I'm. I feel called to create, and, you know, I'm. I believe deeply that the Lord changes everything, you know? Any resources for people like that? [00:42:46] Speaker C: Yeah, just since you've mentioned it, Francis Shaver's Art in the Bible was very, very formative book for me. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Art in the Bible. I'm gonna get it. [00:42:56] Speaker C: Yeah, it's very short. It's like you could read it perfect in 20 to 20 to 30 minutes. Exactly. Which is why I recommend it, because I'm like, I know life is. It's busy out there. Our attention spans don't exist. But this book, I'm telling you, it's like, it's a tragedy. We don't just tell people to read this book. It's good for people who really feel the burden of the gospel and presenting the gospel, but also want to be an artist. And it just helps you sort of, like, see how you can fit in to that, all those ideas. And then if you're really ambitious, spiritually ambitious. Okay. By the way, I should have said earlier, I think it's really good to be ambitious in virtue. So that's. That's an area where I think you should be ambitious. That's sort of like the Imitation of Christ. Yeah. Tarkovsky Sculpting in Time is. Is easily, easily the greatest book ever written about spirituality and. And art. [00:43:50] Speaker A: I. I would say now, Sculpting in. [00:43:52] Speaker C: Time, Sculpting Time would not be the first person to say that. Brady Corbett mentioned it during his campaign for the Brutalist this year. I've heard Joe Wright talk about it on podcasts. You sort of hear it, like, leaks into interviews every once in a while. You're like, ah. And of course, that guy's red Sculpting at Time. I think that book helped me believe that, yeah, you could. You could love art and love God and, you know, and so I would recommend that to anyone. It's not a quick read. It's something you'd have to study. But that's probably to your question also the point, you know, study. Study great cinema, the works of great artists, and you'll be better at what you do and in communicating the ideas that you believe in. [00:44:32] Speaker A: That's great. So that's kind of chatting. That's like these resources, books. I'm curious from a practical standpoint, like, and you can feel free to say any names, too, but, like, do you feel like there are any key collaborators in your life in the past? Like, you know, I don't know, five years or so that you're like, I think a lot of times it's easy to kind of isolate and think, oh, if I'm going to do something, it's all on me to do this. So I'd be curious to hear you talk about, like, are there any key collaborators that you've worked with or people that you want to shout out or that you know have been helpful for you? [00:45:04] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of people, honestly. And some people you sort of, not in a bad way. You sort of, like, work with one time and it was like, it was the right thing at the right time. [00:45:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:13] Speaker C: So I don't see anything wrong with that. Most recently, Jared Hogan has been super tight friend, great brother. Jared has a much different voice. Jared is dark, dark all day long, every day. Like he, but that's God's given him grace to live in that space. I, I, I'm not that guy. But I think what we've both tried to do is like, seek the divine in, you know, in our work, one way or another. So Jer's been awesome. Solomon, who I, I know you know, looks home. He's been just a person. I text, he texts me. We sort of like, share ideas, share things back forth. Like, is this good? Like, am I, am I, like, kidding myself? Like, should I do this? Should I not do this? A good friend of mine named Brev Moss, who's a great writer, he and I collaborated on a bunch of things that have a very similar artistic purpose. [00:46:04] Speaker A: You said Brev Moss? [00:46:05] Speaker C: Yeah, Brev Moss. Yeah. He and I have collaborated on a lot of screenplays and a lot of things. And I think, you know, you, you just meet people along the way. You're like, you're not the only person with the calling. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:17] Speaker C: You know, and then most recently, Clementine Kwitner and Sam Davis, I just made a documentary with them about fentanyl addiction, and they have made me much better at what I do. So, you know, surround yourself with people. Don't be try to be the weakest link on the chain if you can. Yeah, that's my advice. [00:46:38] Speaker A: It's good you mentioned calling. Do you feel like, and this is like on the spot, so no worries if nothing comes up. But like, do you feel like God may be calling you to anything specific, like lately, whether art related or not? I can come back to it too, if you want to chill. [00:46:52] Speaker C: No, no, listen, man, I mean, it's a, it's an important question for sure. I mean, right now, this film, I'M going to make. Even though it's like not explicitly religious in like a categorical sense, I absolutely feel called to it. As if it's like the, the idea's time has come. Right. As Rick Rubin would say. [00:47:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker C: And I feel like a very settled confidence about that. I'm also feeling a tug and you have to test these things. But like my grandmother was incarcerated during the war as a Japanese American. So for a long time I've been trying to tell the story of Japanese incarceration. So right now I'm very much working on documentary about that. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Cool. [00:47:34] Speaker C: And I think, yeah, the place I'm being called to is a very narrow road, you know, to use cheesy biblical line, but it's not faith based films. And it's also not just these sort of like ambitious self indulgent art pieces. [00:47:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:55] Speaker C: I would love to reveal the divine through what I do. And I think Christ represented that sort of like other way, you know, where people were confused on all sides. But his work has stood the test of time. Of course, his life has to the test of time for all the reasons we know. And so I'm not surprised that the place I've called is like, it's a hard road. [00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Because you feel a little bit like a man without a country. And then every once in a while you find someone who's like, I feel the same. And yeah, I'm trying to walk that road with those people. [00:48:25] Speaker A: I heard you say in another interview and it jumped out at me because I said the same thing, but essentially like you're like, it's too secular for faith based and it's too faithful for sure. You know, and like so much of what prodigal is like I'm like, I'm like I found the perfect way where no one should want to invest. It's. There's zero audience for this. Perfect. You know, but I think the truth is we are the audience. We know that these people exist and people care about this. And you know, I think that's. [00:48:54] Speaker C: Look, maybe I don't have the right to say this, but I think that's really what the world needs. I think the world does not need superficial dogma and the world does not need just pure self expression to win words and, and status. The world needs the truth. And you know, the truth is hard to mine and it's also hard to get distributed. So yeah, you know, be on that journey together. [00:49:17] Speaker A: That's good. I love it. Is there anything you like just looking at that, like our timing in General, is there anything that you, like, are excited about or that you want people to know about or anything on your radar right now? [00:49:29] Speaker C: Well, I started a company called Cabrado, which is a celluloid only studio. So we shoot everything we do on film. The purpose of that, the ethos of the company is essentially to preserve humankind's role in the arts. And in an age of AI Yeah, I started film school the year we went digital. It was a tragedy for me. I never found my voice, to be honest, until I started shooting on celluloid because I felt like it was speaking back to me as something that was like truly alive for the first time. And I think, you know, it's a. It's a chemical miracle, but there's just something about it that's just inherently, as our name suggests, cabrado meaning broken. We spelled it with a K. But it's. Yeah, it's imperfect, it's broken. It's like lower phi. It's. It embraces its own imperfections and as most faith films don't, you know, And I think I would love people to know that that exists. And we're supporting other, other films and filmmakers that want to shoot on film. And, you know, I plan to shoot on celluloid for the rest of my life just because of what I've experienced, having to create with that amount of intention and prep and also what it does to the community around the project. Like, everybody's trying to create something great. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:38] Speaker C: And it's harder. It's hard. Yeah, that's. [00:50:41] Speaker A: That's so interesting as a Director. And I DP probably about 60 of the stuff I do. Never shot in film. I always like, wanted to, but as a commercial comes up, like, you know, you get like a Nike job or something or like in theory shooting some film be cool. But I haven't got my practice in yet, so I just continue to not do it. So, yeah, it's hard. [00:51:01] Speaker C: It's hard once you do it to go back. Yeah, it's. They say it's alive 100% of the time. That's true. [00:51:09] Speaker A: I like it. I like it. So where. If people want to check that out, like, is it. Should they go to a website or an Instagram or dot com? [00:51:16] Speaker C: Our Instagram is Karate with a K. Our Instagram is forthcoming. Our first films, we have three in post. And then I'm going to shoot this movie, which will be shot on 16 millimeter in the spring. And we'll probably do one more this year for another filmmaker that we love and so, yeah, follow along if you're so inclined. We would appreciate it. And hit me up if you're interested too. [00:51:37] Speaker A: Awesome. Cool, man. Well, thank you so much. Can I just say a quick prayer. [00:51:42] Speaker C: For you, please, man, I appreciate that. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Lord. I thank you for Brian. I thank you that he can hear your voice. Continue to keep his ears open to your voice and his eyes on you, Father. Lord, I pray that you would that his work could be worship, Father. I pray that you would bless him, him and his team, Lord, that they could walk hand in hand with you, father. And not just walk in being your servant, Lord, but to walk in being your son, Lord. I know you delight in seeing the decisions of your children, father. And so just lead him and guide him. And I pray for his marriage. Bless and strengthen his marriage. Bless and strengthen his family life with his kids, Lord. May he get sleep with that little one, Father. And yeah, Lord, may his role as a father and pursuing these things you call him to, Lord. May that be a gift to his children as well, Father. Lord, we thank you and we love you, Lord. In Jesus name, amen. [00:52:31] Speaker C: Amen. Thanks, Nathan. [00:52:33] Speaker A: Yeah, man. Thank you so much for joining us and jumping on here. I like, there's so many moments in our conversation where I'm like, I can't wait for people to hear that. And like, that's what I was hoping to like that's what I've been looking for when I was writing this stuff. So I really appreciate it. [00:52:45] Speaker C: That's been an honor. Thanks for having me.