Mark Freiburger | Filmmaker | "Craft & Calling"

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Mark Freiberg. He is a filmmaker, writer, director, and producer jumping into his early career. He won the Doritos super bowl commercial contest, and his commercial ranked, like, number one, got over 42 billion impressions. And from there, he ends up being mentored by Michael Bay in this process. He's, like, getting writing jobs as well, rewriting a lot of projects, but kind of comes to find that action and thrillers are, like, not the thing he loves the most. And ends up getting offered a rewrite on this script called Between Borders. And he's really connecting with it, but ends up making a pitch to direct it as well. And he wins that pitch, but comes to also find out that they only have 20 days to film. They're going to film in Romania, and like most indie films, have a budget of around 6 million to 10 million. On the smaller side, I believe this film has a budget of 1.5 million, but they actually pull it off. And he even talks some about that strategy of, like, zero coverage. So pretty much everything that they shot is in the movie. So they kind of almost make the movie before they shot it. This film is. It's starring the talented Elizabeth Tabish. She plays Mary Magdalene in the Chosen. She's, like, great in everything she's in. The movie is beautiful. The score is beautiful. It's scored by Hannon Townsend. You may know from, like, Terrence Malk's films, but it being an indie film, it gets this, like, really unconventional Sunday evening only release into theaters, but ends up still in the top 15 highest grossing films on that date on Rotten Tomatoes. This film has an audience score of 98%, which is quite impressive. You can see it on Apple tv, Amazon, angel, pretty much anywhere you can get movies. But I really enjoyed getting to chat with him and get into some of the nitty gritty on filmmaking stuff. But also there's just some really cool moments in there that jump out to me from talks about how this film Between Borders, like, really kind of helped him be more public with his faith, and also talks about turning down work for convictions. And he's just a delight to talk to. So let's jump in and talk art and faith with Mark Freiberg. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Between Borders. The film was probably the shortest schedule of anything I've ever had to make, even just sort of in the way of the timeline and how it came to me. And since this is a faith podcast as well, I can actually share a little bit of the Genesis. But for the three years I had been working in features, basically my whole life since I graduated school with supplementing sort of the slower years of commercials, branded content, corporate video, all that. And I had a three year stint kind of post Covid where I had an amazing job at a Fortune 500 company doing as an in house producer making content specifically for them for three years. And it was cushy. Both of my kids were born during that time and I kind of thought sort of I had had it made. And then the summer of 2023, I got noticed that it looked like in about six months our entire team was going to get laid off and outsourced to a country where labor was a lot cheaper and they could do production cheaper. So I was getting a little worried about that. And I had started applying to sort of similar positions during that time and was getting nowhere. But also my heart was to go back into movies full time, but I felt like having sort of three, four, five years away from it. I was like, you know, I had been writing the whole time during that period as well, but just wasn't seeing much traction getting anything going. And during this time of sort of praying about like, well, God, like, you know, what's next? I don't know. I got a call from a friend who said, hey, there's this producer looking for someone to rewrite their script because they've done a lot of rewriting work over the years. And they said that it's, I, I recommended you because it really seems up your alley. It's an international story and it's historical. So it turned out to be this story, you know, between Borders, which is a true story about an Armenian family who got caught up in the midst of the pogroms and war between Azerbaijan and Armenia. The family was living in the capital of Azerbaijan, Baku, at the time in the 1980s, when sort of the conflict broke out. They were targeted for death. They escaped, landed in Russia for a while, met some Christian missionaries in Russia from the US and then became Christians themselves and eventually fought for asylum in the us. And so this absolutely loved the story and it really just felt like it hit home for me, even though I'm not Armenian. Just the story of this family's journey was a big just spoke to me and so I started doing the rewrites which were much faster than normal. And then producer Isaac Norris was happy with the rewrites and he told me they had a production schedule that they wanted to meet six months later. And after I got done with a few rewrites, the story became so much of my own. That I asked if I could direct it and put together a presentation, a pitch deck for all that. And fortunately Isaac and the others on the team said yes. So from that point on it was the fastest that I've ever seen a film get made. We sent a script in November 2023 to Elizabeth Tavish and got a yes from her pretty much immediately. And then the holidays came and we still didn't know where we were going to make this film, but we knew we had a window to shoot her out before the Chosen started in April. So we had to make a movie in February and March, which gave us no pre production time. And so in January we finally settled on Romania after. So we needed a country where we could have, that could sub as Azerbaijan, as Russia and the United States. And so we, yeah, we landed on Romania and then we only had three weeks to prep the film. You know, I got to Romania in February and we started shooting in March and very fast prep and then only a 20 day shoot in a very, very low budget. I think that the, the film's budget is a lot lower than what you would probably imagine because also in part because we had an amazing cinematographer who's a veteran, shot a lot of movies and he really elevated the movie a ton and, and kind of walked me through that process was that task was. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Being on set like. So I shoot and I've been hired just as a cinematographer, but I also direct and I'm always a little bit scared to work with new cinematographers because I feel like you have, it's all talk until you see how long they take to light something, you know. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker A: But then there's also people that are really good, so it's worth it, you know. But what was your experience with that? Was it like. Yeah, was it, was that concerning at all? Like, you knew his work was great, but as far as schedule goes, was that the concern? [00:06:38] Speaker B: I knew his work was great. And also, you know, I think maybe producers that initially had a little, few concerns because they said, look, the, the film he did prior to ours was 100 like $35 million budget. And so they're like, look, he had all the time in the world to do everything he wanted to do. This is a 20 day shoot. Can, can he roll? Can he get in the dirt with us? Yeah, but I, I had never worked with him before, but I had known him personally and so we just had, you know, frank conversations and I knew that he had done some small indie films before and he told me, he was like, look, you know, he started out in Europe and a lot of their films in Europe are kind of similar size budgets. We were going to be shooting in Europe, and he said, trust me, you know, I can get this done. And he said, I'm, I. I'll be out there, you know, moving lights around and running cable and doing all the things. I'm not just the kind of DP that sits back and yells at everyone. And he was right. He was the hardest working person on. And he never. I never saw him sit just at lunch break. That was it. Like, that's kind of his thing. He doesn't sit at all during the 12, 14 hours on set. And yeah, so he knocked out of the park. And he's a veteran. And so I, you know, just learned a lot from him in general. And even though I made some films before in the past, this really kind of felt like my first film. [00:07:56] Speaker A: That's cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Have you seen the film Warrior Tom Hardy? [00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:03] Speaker A: For me, it's a film I like a lot, but I'm like, on paper, that film could be so cheesy. It's like two brothers fighting. Who's the best fighter in the world? It's like, oh, geez. But then when you see it, you're like, oh, somebody made some really good decisions along here. Yeah, I felt similar with, like, when I was just seeing your film, I'm like, oh, it's clear to me that there was a director shepherding this, you know, so. [00:08:27] Speaker B: No, I appreciate that. Those are kind words that always. The director loves to hear. I think there might be some moments where I may have pushed some performances a little too far. You know, like a couple of things where I might have teetered on the edge of melodrama just a bit. But I think for the most part, I was trying to be very, very aware of that and constantly dial it in. One thing Elizabeth Tabish said she enjoyed about working together is she said it just. She loved how as we got towards the end of the shoot, I kept getting more and more specific and more and more granular with sort of shaving moments in the performance. And she said, a lot of times, you know, directors tend to kind of ease off the gas a bit towards the end. And she was like, I felt like you just kept pushing harder on the gas towards the end. But I think that comes from. It takes some time, especially in any film, to get to know the way an actor works. And so for me, I'm watching them the whole time and then you see strengths and Weaknesses and, you know, it just takes time to start dialing things in. But we shot all the courtroom scenes towards the end of the movie, which is where some of the heaviest performances are. And that was helpful, you know, to do it that way. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. I try to, after shoots, write these down. Is there anything you feel like, okay, this is something I learned I'm gonna take with me from this project. [00:09:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I think there's one takeaway from this film, from a technical aspect, if we're talking in those terms, is that this was the first time where I went in really, really knowing every single scene, what the first and last shot was gonna be and how the cut was gonna be in the transition for each scene. So there was no guessing with that. And even though how we approached it was every scene, we knew first and last shot. And then because of the nature of not having time to rehearse, you know, you don't really get to see the blocking until you get into the scene. So say there's five shots in the whole scene. You know, I always knew what 1 and 5 were gonna be, how we get in, how we get out. And 2, 3 and 4 was always just. We figured it out on the day. I don't typically storyboard unless it's a, an action related sequence, but I do like to shot list. But on this film I approached it with first and last shot. And then the rest of my shot list was just kind of general. And it wasn't really until we got in the day when we had scenes with heavy extras, like protest scene. That scene was like very like, okay, shot 1, shot 2, shot 3, shot 4, shot 5, get the extras out, you know. But when it comes to the more performance based things moving around in a room, in an apartment, you don't really know until you get a feel with the actors in the space where you're going to put camera, you know. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah, yeah. So you would say you kind of felt like that was a useful strategy, that first the shot in and the shot out. And kind of like that gave you enough of a structure to be able to work on the fly a little bit. [00:11:09] Speaker B: And I think, I think I will always move in from that approach from here on out. I think if you have that, if you have that down, you're taking, the scene's taken care of. If you know, first and last, the scene is really taken care of. The other big thing, yeah, it's great. I mean, it's a great way to work and it saves time and especially on the day. The other big thing we did on this one, which I've never done before, which I will do again in the future in phases, is that this is the first film I ever did where we didn't shoot any coverage. So there is not one shot left on the cutting room floor. Everything was shot for the edit. Yeah. And like when you see master shots in the film, we only shot it for what's used on. We basically, I would. Me and the DP would talk in advance. We say, all right, we're only going to use this master for seven seconds. Let's not waste anybody's time. Cut it after that, then we get in. I only started close ups. If you go back and were to watch the film. We only started close ups when we knew for sure we would go into that moment. [00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:11] Speaker B: And so I would usually not start a close up until like halfway through a scene. And I found on this that the actors really prefer. Not only do you get more setups done that way, but the actors prefer working that way because you're not burning them out, having them perform the scene over and over and over and over again, you know, for a master and a medium, a close up and a dolly shot, whatever you're trying to get. So that was extremely helpful and everyone loved that and it enabled us to kind of. That was one of the big things that enabled us to sort of make this film on a 20 day schedule. [00:12:44] Speaker A: That's cool. I joke that I feel like coverage is pretty boring. I love working with actors all the time, but sometimes I feel like when I was dping a film, I was like, oh, man. I just like, I chose to do it all handheld. I was like, oh, yeah. Gritty and raw. Handheld. And then all of a sudden I'm doing handheld coverage of masters, wides, mediums, close ups. And I was just like, this was a mistake. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah, big time. [00:13:10] Speaker A: But do you feel like that. That you. You said you will try to take that with you into the next projects. Like you. Okay, cool. Awesome. So clearly it didn't. In the editing room, you weren't like a. You know. [00:13:21] Speaker B: No, I think there was. There was maybe like a little bit of like a B roll, some. Some atmosphere establishing that I wished I had had a little bit more of. But beyond that. No, I think it, you know, I never felt myself wanting, like, oh, I wish we had this moment in this frame. But I might be a little bit looser in it in the future. Not so tight. But hopefully in the future. I have more than 20 days. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I know 20 days is wild for a film. I had a. An editor, a very established editor went through my script and he was like, I like this. I want to suggest that you add a scene that you can just cross cut. Like, speaking as an editor, if you can just have me another scene that I can cut to, I can get all the fat out of the way. I can rescue anything if I can cross cut. And so I literally rewrote my short film in a way that there was another thing going on at the same. I already kind of wanted to, but this was kind of my permission to be like. And so I feel like that, you know, in post, it was like, oh, yeah, this is an amazing safety net to have. If I can have two things going. [00:14:25] Speaker B: On at once, you know, that's smart. That's smart. [00:14:27] Speaker A: I'd never heard of that. [00:14:28] Speaker B: I've also heard people kind of recommend, like, if you're. If you decide you're gonna get a scene in a oner, just get like one insert or something that you can cut to just in case. Just in case you think you nail it on the day. Then you get into the editing room and go, oh, no, I didn't nail it. You know. Yeah, it's a. Watch. [00:14:45] Speaker A: It's three times too long. [00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:14:48] Speaker A: I think people have heard about, like, your origin or at least what I, you know, my interpretation of it. And like, you won that Doritos commercial that won and, you know, super bowl thing was successful. And then coming on, working with Michael Bass, kind of jumping past that. I know you are a writer, director and producer, and there's so much more stuff, you know, that's in your bio too. But is there one aspect of it that you feel the most like you find yourself enjoying the most or sort of like the most life giving for you? [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I enjoy telling the. I've discovered that I enjoy telling the inspirational stories the most. That's definitely life giving to me. And that tends to be sort of the true stories. Everything that I'm developing now and moving forward, forward, including the next project that I think is going to get made is all true stories. You know, I've really worked in every genre over the years, and now I've kind of like, you know, narrowed in this kind of inspirational faith and family sort of trio section. Yeah, because that stuff is just the stuff. Especially now as a father, too. It's like, you see how fast time goes in life, and it's like, I just don't. As a creator, I don't want to work on stuff anymore that just isn't life giving. And I think it's fine over the years, I think it's fine to crew on things or even for actors to act in things that may not necessarily be life giving. But I think if you're the source of creating a project from beginning and seeing it through the end, like it better mean something, you know, that's very different than just being a director for hire, DP for hire, actor for hire, you know. But within the process, I think this is maybe part two to your question. Within the process, I tend to enjoy the writing the most and the editing and the music. Those are kind of my three favorite. I don't really enjoy being on set. I'm even actually one of the producers on a film that's shooting right now here in Texas. A 23 day film about the size of Between Borders, a little bit bigger. But like I've only been on set one day of the. I just don't enjoy being on set. It's just not my. That is something that drains me more than anything, especially when directing and I direct, I enjoy telling the story, enjoy working with the actors, enjoy like those magic moments where you get the shot. But in general, the process of production is whatever the opposite is of life giving. It's life sucking. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:17:15] Speaker B: But I mean, it's just part of the process. So you just deal with it. You suck it up and go. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think it's so good to know that too. Right. I feel like early on you can try to think, oh, I just gotta love everything if I wanna do this. And I think to kind of know what is. What's working and thriving, you know, like there are times you just. Obviously you just have to shoot it. But yeah, I do think that it's good to know. Like I, you know, I like love editing, but also the length of it, you know, can be very draining for me. Yeah, but I love being on set, you know. So like I totally kinda, you know, I would say the writing process. Why I very much enjoy it. I'm like, I'm not a writer first. It's like one of the more difficult things for me to be a part of. [00:17:56] Speaker B: But yeah, I mean, everybody's got sort of their lanes that they love and they don't. I will say I do. One part of the process that I do love is I love the very beginning of the day on set. Like when everybody's getting going and it's like early and still kind of dark out and like your Adrenaline's pumping. Cause you're like, let's just tackle this day. And, you know, I'm like, already two to three shots of caffeine already in me. And you're like, waiting for everything to finish, getting set up so that you can bring the actors in the block. Like, something about that nervous energy and that adrenaline, like, that's probably my favorite part of the day of being on set. I don't know why, but it is. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker A: So you mentioned writing, and also I've seen that you've, like, written quite a bit of stuff. You've rewritten stuff for people. I always felt like writing is obviously such an important aspect, but sometimes I felt like. Sometimes in the faith space, I felt like it was kind of a neglected stepchild in some ways, you know, big time. Or if it was just like, they know what they want to do and they want a Christian to make it or, you know, and so then they're just like, oh, I'd rather find someone I trust than someone who's clocked a lot of hours. What do you want to do different, if anything, in the writing space when it comes to some of these stories? And it doesn't have to be, you know, faith based specifically, but stories, the type of stories you want to tell, I think. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Well, for starters, there's a couple questions in there I'd love to discuss. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker B: With you. But for starters, I'll start generally and then go to me generally. I think kind of to answer your question about specifically faith based films or films and faith is that, I think, because the mess the. A lot of films in that space are, the message is sort of the most important thing. They forget that it's the storytelling that should be the most important. And you know, you even think going all the way back to when Christ was on earth, um, you know, he wasn't really preaching, he was telling stories, parables. Right. And people would have to think about a set and then get, you know, understand the message from there. We still do when we read the red letters, you know, we still kind of looking for the meaning in that, even though lots of people have interpreted over the years as well for us. So I think people sort of in the faith space, put the cart before the horse. And because of that, there's been a lack of. There are some filmmakers that are operating really well in the space, but there's been a lack of training and dedication to the craft and learning how to really effectively tell a story. And I think that a lot of faith films could be more broadly appealing had they focused more on the storytelling first. I've also. I've been to Christian conferences where they've even explicitly said, don't worry so much about, like, learning the craft, Just, like, get the message right. And that's not how people consume media, that's not how people consume entertainment. When people sit down and watch a film, they don't want to be preached to. They can go to church on Sunday to do that. They want to be entertained or they want to watch a story that they think is going to be an intriguing story, a great story. And so that's where inherently, I think this end of the industry gets it backwards. And not everyone does, but I think that's sort of a general problem. I've. At a lot of these conferences, I also meet people that are making or trying to make things in this space, and they've never really taken the time to study filmmaking. And some of them not even sure if they really love filmmaking. You got like, it's like the hardest industry in the world, and, like, you really have to love it to want to do it. [00:21:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Especially long form, you know, features. And then specifically for me, part, sort of part two of your question. I think it took about 15 years to kind of like, learn how to write like myself, if I'm being honest. Recently turned into my 40s. And so I think it really wasn't until my late 30s where it started to click. But I've been writing since I was 18, you know, trying to write features since I was 18. And I look back on my old stuff and some of it's horrendous, and then some of it is like, it's good for the genre, but it's not me. I had a period going back to what you were saying about the Doritos and Michael Bay thing. Had a period after all of that, winning the super bowl contest and then working with Michael Bay for six months, where I got signed by a major agency briefly after that. I was with a great management company already, but because of that experience, everyone wanted to throw me into specific genre. You know, he's going to be the next thriller and action guy, you know, but with heart. Yes, I had learned a lot in that space, but it wasn't inherently what I naturally gravitated to. And so it always felt like a struggle to try to fit those boxes. And lo and behold, you know, years later, nothing ever got made in those spaces. Because I think at the end of the day, you know, if you're pitching a project which I was pitching a lot of that times, you know, to production companies that had studio deals. And when you're pitching, you know, when you walk in and then another guy walks in after you to pitch something, and that guy has been eating and breathing and sleeping sci fi his entire life, since he was five years old. You feel that from that guy. And then I walk in and I'm pitching a sci fi story because I think, you know, because my agents are managers, it said, this is the thing you need to go in with because this is what that company wants. There's a huge difference. There's a huge difference with that. So Between Borders for me was I had already started writing stuff in this space ahead of that, but Between Borders was like the final light bulb for me where I decided, okay, this is it. These are the kinds of films I want to be making moving forward. [00:23:20] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's cool. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Do you feel like the Holy Spirit plays a role in the writing process? Like, is that something you've experienced? [00:23:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think if you're no Christian, true Christian, then, okay, you know, so the scriptures tell us, you know, then the Holy Spirit's living inside us. Right. And if God is the ultimate creator and we are creative beings, then I think that's all, it's all interconnected. And so I think anything you're putting your hand to, the Holy Spirit is automatically a part of that process. But I think that there are different levels of, you know, you can invite the Holy Spirit to really be a part of it, you know, or you can just sort of run off and do whatever it is that you think you want to do. But the big sort of thing I would caution with that is if you are of that mindset of like, oh, I'm connected to the creator of the universe, therefore my stuff will be amazing. You still have to learn the craft. It's like if you want to play piano, you still got to learn how to play piano. If you want to be a doctor, you still got to go to medical school for years and years and years. And if you want to be a writer and a filmmaker, you have to study to craft and write all the time, you know. But I think, you know, it's like for me, writing is one of those life giving things. And for me, it's like almost at times, whatever it is that I'm writing, like, if I do not get out of my system, then I like, I can't sleep, I can't function properly, I can't engage in conversations well with Other human beings. I can't be. I can't. I can't be present with my children because there's this. This thing that's going off and I had to get it out, you know, whether it's something I ended up using or not. I once heard, I think maybe it was David Mamet. Talk about an analogy he used where he said, you know, for some writers, it's kind of like beavers. Like beavers chew wood because their teeth hurt if they don't, you know. And that very much spoke to me. I was like, oh, right. You know, if. When I'm not writing, my brain hurts, you know, like, my head hurts if I'm not writing. [00:25:25] Speaker A: That's so good. I know my wife, when we were working on the film, she's like, more than anything, I just want you to get this done with, you know, for your own sake. Like, she's a huge supporter and, you know, even a producer on it and stuff. But she was like, as your spouse, you need, you need to chew. I can see you need to chew this wood. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Totally. [00:25:46] Speaker B: She's like, and then I hope you won't want to chew wood for a while. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you. Have you ever had to turn down any work, like, because of convictions? [00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I turned down my biggest opportunity ever because of it. There was in the height of that era, you know, post Tritos, post Michael Bay, you know, pitching around town, I was offered by one of the major legacy studios, I was offered a chance to direct a movie for them. And I read the script and it was just like. It just. It just. I couldn't do it, you know. And look, it doesn't mean necessarily that the movie would have gotten made, you know, just because a studio makes you an offer to direct a film and attach you to direct, that you still got to get stars and all the things, you know, to eventually, you know, get a film potentially greenlit. So I'm not saying that film would have happened anyway, but it was an opportunity tunity and would have gotten my foot in that door. But I just felt like if that is going to happen for me, eventually it'll happen the right way and it'll happen through a film that is more aligned with my tastes anyway. Because even if, say, I had said yes and I did it to direct studio movie, did it for a paycheck, anybody watching the film would have been able to tell, like, oh, the director doesn't love this material, you know, the movie's going to be bad and you're not. You're not servicing the fans of that genre. It was a comedy. You're not servicing the fans of that property or that genre. You're not servicing the studio who you agreed to work for in good faith, and you're not servicing yourself. So, you know, there's no reason to, you know, say yes or something like that. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you feel like when you were saying no to that, were you just in the space of like, I'm just not the right guy, or was it in the space of like, I kind of want to do this just for the work, but I want. I'm just trying to, like, trust God, you know, Was it a kind of a spiritual process or a logistical. Or probably both or both. [00:27:44] Speaker B: Both and more of the latter. Of like, of course I wanted to do it. You know, directing a film, a movie for a studio comes with a lot of financial benefit and residuals. And of course, I wanted for that aspect of my life, even though I was single at the time, didn't have a family. It would be even harder now to turn that down now. You know, a father who now makes a living doing this, and it would be even more challenging now to turn that down. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Have you found any patterns to the way you get inspired? Sometimes people are like, oh, when I go for a run or I listen to music or, yeah, anything. [00:28:23] Speaker B: I see what you're saying. Yeah. For me, the inspiration doesn't come when I'm sitting down at the laptop, working and typing. To me, that's the phase of execution. I don't just sit with a blank page and go, hmm. You know, I. The inspiration first can come through anything. It can come from an article I read or a conversation I had with someone. Relationally. Yes. Listening to some music or driving and having thoughts about an idea, maybe that I'm. That I'm contemplating. But the inspiration comes in forms that don't involve sitting down and writing. It comes from everywhere. And I'm also, like, an intense, avid reader. I read fiction every single night of my life. It's just part of my process. Even though the fictional stories that I read are not necessarily things I'm adapting, they are. You know, it just keeps me in that head space of. Of enjoying creativity and enjoying great stories. And so. [00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:18] Speaker B: So I hope that answered your question. Did it? [00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Keeps those creative and story story wheels turning. That makes sense. [00:29:26] Speaker B: When I hear, like, a true story where I feel like this is maybe a story that I could potentially get the rights to, that could be a great story. To tell on screen. I typically used to always kind of approach adapting those things in the past with sort of a story and plot focus thing first and character second and eventually realize it was doing it backwards. And so now I tend to, when I'm writing a script, once I know it's a story that could be worthy of the screen, I spend all my time first on the characters, their arcs. Every single character is going to appear in the film, even if it's only five minutes. And I create diagrams now too. When I'm done, I just write everything. Word vomit. Everything I can think about this person, who they are, whether it's a real, you know, true story or not. Or if I have to invent some supporting characters. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:15] Speaker B: And get all that on the page, map all these characters out. And then, you know, and then I work on the structure next on the three act structure. And I found that shifting that has for at least me personally has been really beneficial. [00:30:28] Speaker A: That's cool. So you can kind of make more like as you're creating that structure, you can kind of make more character based decisions because you know those characters so well. [00:30:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know what they would and wouldn't do per se or wouldn't say. And then you know them so well at that point. And then you know, if you need to, if the scene's missing a little something, you need to bring one of those characters in for that scene, you know and. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. So we'll see, we'll see how the next film turns out and see if that approach works. [00:30:56] Speaker A: I'm excited to see. I feel like that's one of the things I was thinking. I was feel like Borders is gonna bring a lot of stuff your way. But do you have any spiritual practices or routines you kind of do that are part of your regular life or your family's life? [00:31:10] Speaker B: Maybe not necessarily routine, but I mean I pray daily and then pray with my children daily. And then for me it's a creative too or I mean even non creatives do this as well. But I just like in constant dialogue praying throughout the day, whether it's in the car or making a sandwich or whatever, you know, it's part of, it's just part of. It's kind of an open dialogue that will never end. So I see that as. As part of my sort of spiritual practice. And then of course, you know, trying to spend time scriptures too. Since having kids, you know, my wife and I have finally gotten into a good routine of like weekly services, you know, at a church. We finally found one near us that we, like, really, really love. And we take the kids there, and the kids love it, too. Just good people, you know, just a good place. Also, a church that's, like, very big about keeping politics out, too, which I love, because they. They recognize that too many churches have gotten sort of poisoned by politics the last few years. So it's just sort of a nice place where the. Even the pastor's like, we're not gonna talk about that. You know, it's just a healthy place in general. [00:32:16] Speaker A: That's cool. I also just love hearing when people are like, oh, I really value my church. I feel like in our industry, especially, like, 10 years ago, I feel like it was almost in vogue to be like, well, I don't believe in organized religion, only my own spirituality. And I get it because of past stuff, but it's just been cool. I feel like that's been changing. It's kind of cool. [00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I see that, too. And I think if you can find a church that says actually healthy and where the preaching is pretty solid and the people. It's really. It's really just about the people, honestly. It's about the relationships and the people that attend there and, you know, and if they're real and authentic and. And, you know, that's, you know, that's the key because church is for community. You know, you can find all the instruction you want, lifestyle, spiritual, biblical instruction, online, from your Bible, YouTube, whatever, podcasts, all the teaching you want to find is already exists. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:11] Speaker B: So to me, church is more about, like, finding your community and, you know, having that as a part of your weekly routine. And now, as someone who's been in our industry and a creative for my entire life who's never thrived off of routines, now that I have children, realize how important routine is. You know, you learn that as a father from day one, when they're born, you know, feeding, sleeping, all the things. And then you learn, you know, as they get older, you know, how routine is very healthy, you know, for a child's life. And so, yeah, you know, a Sunday service is just one of those many aspects of routine that we like to keep. [00:33:52] Speaker A: I had this thought, too, about I was having a rough week spiritually of just feeling like sometimes it feels like the wind is in your sail and the boat's going, and other times it's like, here's a paddle, just trying to keep the boat, you know, And I really enjoyed church last Sunday. One thing I value about it is, like, it's gonn happen no matter what. And, like, people are going to be there no matter what. There's a sermon, there's worship. And it kind of reminds me almost of, like, when I have a writing partner, when I'm like, I'm just not up for it. But we have this scheduled time, so I just have to. I'm just gonna go. And then it is actually fruitful, you know? [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:25] Speaker A: I felt like I'm thankful that it's not just me on my own trying. [00:34:28] Speaker B: To, like, you know, so exercises like that, you know, and like, athletes that have teammates. I'm sure most many days you're on a football team, you don't want to show up, you don't want to lift weights today, you don't want to run track. But, like, if you don't show up because everyone else is there, you're held accountable. [00:34:46] Speaker A: That's good. Tell me about some of the stuff you would still love to do. Like, in some ways, I love doing this podcast. I feel like I'm, like, curating a list of all these talented people, and people can find directors here, fine writers here. But I would. If someone was on here and they're like, I'm on the mark train. Like, I want to just green light whatever he is, his project is that he, like, really wants to do the one he's most excited about. Like, what would be. Is there a. Is there a script or a project that's on your mind? [00:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah, there are. There's three very specific ones that hoping to do one, which I think is kind of like Between Borders, is quickly shaping up. I've only written two very fast drafts of it, but we have a potential financier who's a great film financier, very reliable company that seems to have latched onto it first. So we haven't even shown it around yet. But that story is based on a true story also. In the 80s. It's about a woman named Penny Dugan, who, in the early and mid-80s, had three children. She was married, Christian, big conservative megachurch living in the Midwest. And her husband ended up coming out to her as gay, left her for a much younger man about half his age, and devastated the family. They were doing very well financially at the time, but then that as he left, that showed all the financial cracks that were in their life, too. Her life kind of started to spiral out of control, and then her husband came back to her and said, I have this new virus that everyone's talking about and everyone's very scared about, and it's killing a Lot of men in the gay community. I don't know what to do. And you need to get tested too. [00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:28] Speaker B: And so she tested. Fortunately, you know, obviously he, he had hiv, contracted hiv. And she got tested and fortunately was not. Was negative. And her children too. And as his health condition degraded and turned into full blown AIDS related illness, she ended up taking him and his lover back into her home and took care of him until his death. And then she kind of got a name for herself within the gay community at that time in the city that they lived in. And one by one, because so many of these gay men were ostracized. Oh I should also say the big mega church during that time they were attending kicked them out because her husband had come out and all the. So she started taking her children to this like street inner city church that she found that was just with like prostitutes and drug addicts and homeless people. And that became her new family. And it was a very authentic place of worship. And after her husband died, one by one more men in the gay community started coming to her saying like, no one will take me in. It was. This was at the height of the AIDS paranoia. I don't have any. My family has disowned me. The church won't take me. No one will take me. I don't know where to go. So one by one, she started taking men into her home while being a single mother raising three children. And over the course of the next few years, she ended up taking care of about 50 men until their death. And that grew into her starting one of America's first ever private AIDS hospices. And so which went on for years. And then after that she went on to. She never got remarried and she decided to stay in AIDS ministry for the rest of her life. And she's now retired, so we are. Had optioned the rights to that story years ago. And a couple of, I guess you could say false starts just never really quite cracked the story. And previous iterations of a script about a decade ago were not, were not good at all. And so this summer a woman that I work with a lot named Paige Collins had approached me and said like, we need to re. Option the rights to the story. Like now's the time. I don't know why, but I just feel like now's the time. And so we re. We got the rights back. And I wrote two very fast drafts this summer. And um. And then out of nowhere, a financier happened to be asking an agent at UME if he knew of any projects that had sort of a faith crossover, lgbtq, but also kind of on edgy, but authentic faith because they wanted to tell a story. Authentic faith, but not necessarily a faith based movie. And this agent was like, well, there's one I know of, and it was this one. So hopefully we'll be moving forward with that film next year and we'll see where that goes. The other project that I have that I really would love to make is just an original idea. What about. Few original ideas. It's essentially. It's a faith story as well, but it's about a blind musician. [00:39:18] Speaker A: Who is that Follow by Night? [00:39:22] Speaker B: That's Followed by Night, yeah. A guy who has been plagued by dreams about his daughter who passed away years ago. And these dreams start getting more and more intense, and he's no longer a man of faith. But what he will ultimately discover is that these dreams are prophetic in nature. And so what happens is these dreams get more and more tense and start pulling him in. And he decides he thinks they might have some meaning. So he ends up as a blind man who's never traveled before, taking a solo journey halfway around the world in pursuit of trying to sort of scratch that itch and see if these dreams actually mean something. And they do. And they ultimately, without giving away the ending, they ultimately lead him to a very specific time and place for a reason that. And he realizes, you know, that they were prophetic in nature. So that's sort of like another small drama. Dramas are hard, you know, the other one is hard to get. These are all films that are hard to get made. I don't know what my problem is. You know, these are harder films to green light. And then thirdly, I don't know if you're familiar with the Preachers and Sneakers. Instagram account. [00:40:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:31] Speaker B: But it was very viral. And, you know, Instagram account that. That went viral a few years ago. Me and myself and Paige and another partner had optioned the rights to that account and the book. We were actively potentially turning that into a TV series. We had originally sold it to 20th Century Television, and we had a huge, huge, huge. One of the biggest TV producers in the business attached to produce that with us. And eventually the strikes happened and all the things, and then, you know, as things happen, it just never moved forward. But we got the rights back this year and we now have a new partner that we're moving forward with. So that one, if we get that made, will be a really fun look, I think, into the world of sort of celebrity pastors and our Hope is that it's a very grounded approach and that we as believers are holding up sort of the mirror on that culture and we want to examine it sort of the proper way. We don't want to make fun of it. You know, sure, there's going to be wink, wink moments. We're not trying to tear down the church at all with it, but we feel like it is a world that people would love to know more about and it's a world that needs to be examined. [00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I always say when it comes to stories, I want to be afraid of the dark, but also not afraid of the light. I think you can see, you can be afraid of both. I think you could be afraid of on the faith space, I can be afraid of showing the dark reality and I think sometimes in the other space it can be almost afraid of showing the light. I was been joking with my friends and I'm like, I've made a really special niche for myself. It's things that are too secular for faith based and too faith influenced for, for secular space. It's this perfect little niche, you know, that no one will green light. But it's what I felt drawn to and called to. [00:42:13] Speaker B: I know. And it's very hard. You're right. I mean that's a hard, That's a hard target to hit. Because if it's sort of not made for the faith market, then. And if it's too faithy for the general market, general market doesn't know how to finance and market something like that. And the faith market is like, ah, it's just too far outside of our own narrow path, you know, So I feel you. And I think there's, you know, there's a lot of filmmakers working in both spaces that have stories like that and just haven't been able to figure out how to get them made. [00:42:42] Speaker A: And I believe that. I believe that a demand actually does exist. [00:42:46] Speaker B: It does. [00:42:47] Speaker A: I think being out here, even in la, not only do I see lots of believers interested in that, but I actually see lots of writers too that are talented working writers that deeply believe the Lord rescued them. And even when I talk to them, I'm like, oh, have you ever thought about writing something that like in your way that touches on that and they're like, of course, they're like, I have outlines but like there's pretty much zero demand. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's actually a big part of what Prodigal, like the nonprofit that helps do this podcast. That's the idea is one of their goals is or our Goals is to create the demand for these scripts. So in mid-2026, if the donations are in there, the idea is to do essentially like a hundred thousand dollars prize reward, no strings attached, you don't own anything just for like essentially curating this to do those types of stories that there's zero demand for. Those are the ones. That's really cool. [00:43:45] Speaker B: That's really cool. Yeah. [00:43:47] Speaker A: And this is a way to curate those writers that are able to do it. You know, people can find those scripts and stuff. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, look, Between Borders is one of those films, you know, Totally. We were told and we got it made, you know, we were told that, you know, the faith audience isn't going to care even though it's a faith based movie. They're like, they're not going to care about a story about an Armenian family trying to get asylum in the U.S. especially during this political climate. And the reality is, is that, you know, so that film was sort of parsed out into. We had a theatrical distributor, a streaming partner, different foreign sales partners, but one of the company that took our current SVOD rights, you know, Angel Studios, we almost didn't submit to them first because, you know, people kept saying, oh, you know, you gotta send it to angel. Send it to Angel. And we're like, well, it's not, you know, what we knew of as angel is sort of the most sort of Christian, the most and Mormon and most sort of politically right of all of the, all the sort of different homes where you could find a film. And for lack of better words, you know, angel is kind of always seen as sort of like the maga crowd. And we were like, look, we don't, we don't think, you know, the maga crowd will like this film at all, you know, given. And it's not necessarily political film, but, you know, it's, it's a film about immigration, fighting for all those things. But it eventually got submitted to Angel. That crowd loved the film, you know, so what do we know? You know, and in fact, it's, it like scored at least at the time. It became the highest rated film ever on the angel guilt. And we actually had a lot of people, you know, commenting. You can read the comments from the Angel Guild members that watch. I think there were like maybe you know, 300,000 people that watched the film and kind of, they vote on it as part of the angel process. And we had all these flood of comments come in saying, like, you know, this film really convicted me about my views on immigration. This film, you know, you Know, touched my heart, yada, yada yada. I never really thought about immigrants in this way. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:50] Speaker B: And you know, saying that this film, despite its politics, maybe not necessarily aligning that it, that it still spoke to them. So that was a film where it just didn't neatly fit in a box yet people still embraced it. You know, And I think had we had a different theatrical strategy, it would have gone a lot further at the box office too. It had a stupid release schedule where things got very muddled and we ended up ultimately the powers that be involved ended up taking a deal that was not eventually not originally offered. And so the film was released on a Sunday for three days only in theaters across the country with essentially no marketing dollars whatsoever. We were originally had an elite actress booked for national television shows and other things. All those things got taken away when our release schedule was bumped to three days. Same with all the critic reviews. Critics no longer wanted to review it because it was not going to be a real theatrical release. But even despite all that and we ended up not releasing the numbers at the box. But despite all that, like just the one Sunday that it was in theaters for the weekend, it was number 15. It was number 15 at the box office. And specifically in various faith centers and Armenian centers. You know, it obviously for faith based movie, it really overperformed in places like LA and New York in a way that they had never seen before because those are not typically markets that faith based movie distributors target it. But they also knew, well, it's got an Armenian component. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:25] Speaker B: And the film did very well in those areas. But. But yeah, so, you know, that was one where we, like you said, didn't quite, didn't quite fit the box. But I think as more films like that and as what you're doing and other filmmakers sort of try to aim for something a little more in the middle, they'll see that those films can find a way to. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. I know the short I just did is a thriller and it's based upon Ephesians 6:12. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual principalities. But. But I'm like, this is like a thriller. It's. And I'm not necessarily drawn to scary projects, but I just felt like. I feel like sometimes there's certain stories that it's just the right genre for it, you know, and that kind of enhance it. So. And it involved a lot having to do with like my therapy, my wife's therapy experience, but then also the spiritual side of it. But people keep being like oh, you should. Oh, you got to submit this to Angel. Submit. And I'm like, we were doing a screening at this, like, full theater and people are like, terrified. And I'm like, I'm not so sure Angel's gonna be interested in this, nor if it is that audience. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Damn. [00:48:35] Speaker A: But it'd be surprised. [00:48:36] Speaker B: I think that audience is a lot more open to various stories. I think that audience got put in a box and they shouldn't have been. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I was gonna say. Hearing you say that is cool to hear. And I think so much even for being a believer is like, I don't think someone who's seeking to follow Jesus gets to like, just choose a side. I think it's case by case basis, you know, I think it's. You can't just be like, I'll pick this team politically and just go with whatever they say, you know. And I think that even your film shows that in a great way, you know, it's cool. [00:49:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it does. It, it. And I think that's how a lot of people, you know, if you're talking about politics specifically, I think once you really get into the weeds and you just talk about specific issues, you realize no matter what side of the fence that people are on, there's a lot of crossover and there's a lot of genuinely, you know, there's a lot of people that, you know, one size doesn't fit all for sure. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Totally. You know, Are there any resources you would recommend, maybe for someone who feels called to create, whether it be like a book or, you know, a habit or something? [00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's probably been already recommended on one of your podcasts in the past with other guests. But I think if you're just talking about any kind of creative pursuit in general, like, you can always go back to the artist's way, you know, I think that's a great book to start with for anyone who maybe feels called to step into this world. And then beyond that, I think whatever medium you're choosing, whether it's music or film or painting, dance, whatever it is, I think just devour, you know, devour the material of that space, you know, get to know it, get to love it, get to learn your craft and yeah, that's all like, I mean, you know, you could see like behind me all the, you know, all the books, you know, everything on these shelves are all film related books. None of them are faith based anything. They're just all books about the craft and people in the industry Because I just love to read that. So, yeah, I would just say immerse. [00:50:33] Speaker A: Yourself and then where can people like, from wanting just to see what you're working on next to maybe a producer, someone reaching out, wanting to connect about potential project. What's the best way to do that? [00:50:47] Speaker B: You can reach me just through my website, mark.markfreiberger.com. you know, there's a contact page in there. I get a lot of people reaching out for various things and yeah, have met some cool folks that way and industry folks that weren't sure how to contact me, but that's. Yeah, that's the best way. [00:51:03] Speaker A: Dude, thank you so much. Can I just say a quick prayer? Sure, okay. [00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Lord, I thank you for the work you're doing in Mark's life and his family life. Lord, I pray that you would bless him. Bless his marriage, protect his marriage and his family. Lord, I just pray that it would just thrive, Father. Lord, pray that you could be the center that would just guide them all. I just pray you bless the work that he's doing. I pray that you could speak through it. I pray that even as he prays throughout the day with you, Lord, that you would just lead him and guide him. I pray that the stresses would be lightened because he could just trust you, Lord, Your burden is light, your yoke is easy, Lord. And I just thank you for the work you're doing. Just. Yeah. Bless everything he puts his hands to, Lord. May he make honest and beautiful work like he already is. Lord Jesus name. Amen. [00:51:52] Speaker B: Amen. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. This was. This was a unique one, so I appreciate it. I enjoyed it very much. [00:52:01] Speaker A: Thanks, man. I really enjoyed it as well.