Disney Animation Filmmakers | Nathan Engelhardt & Jeremy Spears

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Nathan Englehart and Jeremy Spears. Nathan is a director and supervising animator at Walt Disney Animation. He's worked on many films. Moana, Wreck It Ralph, Big Hero 6, Frozen 2, many more. Jeremy Spears is the director as well. He's a story artist at Disney Animation. That's where these guys met. They worked on many of the same films and They've had this 10 year process of making a beautiful animated short film called Forever Green. I'm just going to show you the. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Trailer real quick, Sam. [00:01:07] Speaker A: As you can see, this film is winning all sorts of awards and festivals, as it should, and we get a chat about, like the gospel parallels in the story, but also like how God became real to them at a young age and kind of how they seek to co create with God and so to kind of walk at the Lord's pace through it all. So it was a real delight getting to chat with these guys. So without further ado, let's talk art and faith with Nathan Engelhardt and Jeremy Spears. [00:01:32] Speaker C: Well, I'm Jeremy Spears and I am a director and a writer on Forevergreen. I also was able to serve as production designer on the film. [00:01:41] Speaker B: And my name is Nathan Englehart and I was the other writer and director on Forevergreen. And I did not do production design. But I am a big fan of what Jeremy did. [00:01:54] Speaker C: Thanks, buddy. [00:01:55] Speaker A: I love it. [00:01:56] Speaker C: I'm a big fan of what you did. [00:02:00] Speaker A: I was just kind of bragging on the film. Beautifully done and it could stand on its own in any context. But I know there's a faith element to it. I'd be curious to hear, maybe starting with you, Jeremy. Was there a moment that God kind of became real to you in your life? [00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. I was 5 years old when I received the Lord in my life. And I heard about hell and I was like, I don't want to go there. So I remember it was a very rudimentary understanding of why I would want to give my life to the Lord. Um, and so just as I grew up and went to, when I went to high school though, as I was wrestling with certain things, you know, from the Bible, and I, I ended up going to summer camp at Hume Lake, which we were just there this last weekend and I had a chance to share this story as well. But there was a, a message that was given one one of the nights and I had been praying that the Lord would just make it clear to me. And I'm a very. I'm a visual learner. So this, this speaker, he used a stick figure Dr. Basically make the correlation of sort of some of these stories in the Bible all pointing to Christ. So it was that mixed with the animator Glen Keane was a huge inspiration for me with animation. But I saw him write these books called Adam Raccoon. And there was a series of. I think there's six books in the series, maybe there's eight. And we used to read those in our church. There was a, there was a children's pastor that would read those. And my dad was actually on the piano behind. You know, just my dad could play by ear. So he was making the score to the, to the book. But I made that correlation that here's this extreme talent and he's using his gift for the Lord. It was all anchored around visual storytelling really is God became real in those ways of like, oh, I see, um, what the Lord is doing out there, I want to be a part of that. And I, and, and I just felt like sometimes we, we don't understand what we're really getting into when we become a Christian. It's a, it's a hard journey. Um, and I think that it just took a long time for me. Um, and I think really in college is where I really cemented that. So there you go. That's my, that's my short long answer there. [00:04:14] Speaker A: But yeah, no, that's good. I, I do feel like there's for me similar. I used to joke that I was born into full time ministry because of just my parents and the situation, you know. But I do think there this time of like once I'm on my own in Los Angeles with no accountability, like, oh, what do I really believe? And I can do whatever I want and you know, and then crashing and burning and needing to be rescued, you know. So I do think the college too is kind of this like where we really decide, you know, kind of in this adult age range, you know. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean at some point your parents faith. It can't. That's not going to save you. Right. It's a blessing like we see with Timothy and his grandmother and mother teaching him the word and. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:58] Speaker B: As Paul talk talks about. But I think I had a similar thing where I grew up in the church and was around hearing about Jesus and I think that was a great privilege. But at some point that has to become your faith. Right. I think that I had a similar story where you know, high school and going away in college. I think that was a big like, what do I believe? Do I believe all this, um, and, you know, arrived at, yes, I do believe this. But I think it was probably a superficial faith at best. It was an easy believism. And I remember reading the Gospel According to Jesus right around 2012ish or whatever. When I came to LA, I had been living in Manhattan, working at Blue Sky Studios. And then I came to Disney and a friend, a high school buddy's father had mentioned, you should go to John MacArthur's church. And so I was like, oh, I don't even know who that guy is. And so I went and was just pricked by the Word and confronted by sin that I felt like I had not really confronted. Like I knew what I was doing was wrong, you know, and licentious and. And so I. But just to hear the power and conviction that came with hearing the Word unleashed, it really made me question. Like, I don't know if I was genuinely saved. I'm definitely not living like a believer. Either I was quenching the spirit hard or I just wasn't saved at all. And I think I would attribute that moment and really that decisive desire to follow the lord back in 2013, the genuine repentance then. And so, yeah, that would be my short answer. But, yeah, it wasn't like, so very familiar with it, but kind of had that easy believism of just, you know, believing, which is no better than what, you know, the Bible says that, okay, even the demons believe and shudder, right? It's like, I believe Jesus as a savior, but not as Lord, you know. [00:07:05] Speaker A: So totally I love it. I love hearing it's. Obviously it's good news, but I also think that even from a storyteller perspective, I felt like my heart longed for meaning and real battles to be fought and purpose. And I think my view was sort of like, that's not really a need anymore in this day and age. And I feel like as similar to you going to the church and then being pricked and realizing, oh, there's this call to something higher. And then I almost felt like the bad news was, okay, I'm clearly missing the mark. The good news is there's like a real life of meaning and purpose and calling and even joy and hardship battles, but it's all there, all the stuff, kind of the hero's journey, stuff that I wanted actually was sort of found in pursuing Christ. And truly like, okay, what if I actually did this? But there was that, like, you kind of have to choose. Am I on a cruise ship or I'm on a battleship you know, at least for me. [00:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's totally it. Yeah. And I think that became very apparent later on. Like, after. After I was saved, I felt I was confronted with a lot of sin from the past, and almost like the enemy was trying to go, I don't think you're real. Even though I was genuine. But, like, that really brought me into a situation where I felt like I was being spiritually bombarded. And I was like, oh, this is what the Bible has been talking about. This is what Ephesians 6 talks about. Like, I hadn't actually ever experienced that kind of spiritual warfare before. The bombardment of. On my mind, the bombardment on my soul. And the Lord used that moment to really. It was a catalyst to desire to tell a story that had what you're called, like, that eternal weight and purpose behind something. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:59] Speaker B: But it was a moment where it became a real battle. A battle just to wake up and feel motivated. A battle to do really anything. It was really a spiritual depression slump after feeling like I had this great joy, and then all of a sudden was being challenged, like, oh, because I had done this thing in my past, somehow that disqualifies me. And it really required me to get into the word and understand what justification meant in order to see that I. You know, to ease my conscience, to make it more biblically informed. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Totally. [00:09:35] Speaker B: But that. That journey of seeing that battle, I mean, that's really. It's not a cruise ship. It's a battleship. [00:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:43] Speaker C: And I might be getting ahead of your questions or whatever you would have for us, but I wanted to add on to this. So just to talk about the film for a second as well, is that we had. Both. Nathan and I had this deep desire to share our story through that character of the bear. And he is us. But the big thing is he is all of us. Like, that character is identifiable to everybody. It's a wide net. We cat with that character. And the way that the tree acts, the way that he acts in the film, is very much like how God would act towards us. How much he loves us is what we were trying to show. And in college, I realized that I had just always fallen back and I had rededicated. There's the rededicate. I rededicated my life to the Lord. And it's like. I did that about four or five times, you know, in high school. [00:10:41] Speaker A: It's almost like a part of the relationship just to break up and getting. [00:10:43] Speaker C: Back together, it's just. It's. You know, and I kind of realized. So it Was. It was the. The Living Waters group. So it was Ray Comfort. I heard him say this message one time and he, he was a guy and he is a guy who is sharing his faith constantly. And he's doing it in a way that's winsome. He's. He's not shouting at people and yelling at them. He's interacting with them and having a conversation. So Ray was actually. I remember him saying, if you've, if you've slid, if you've backslid, maybe you, you know, maybe you never slid forward in the first place. My eyebrows went up. I went, oh, I better make sure I got this right, you know. And it was because it was God had been prepping my heart for. I was finally softened enough to where I was. I was. That affected me. Like that actually got to. And I thought about it and so I thought about it long and hard. I prayed and I think I truly, you know, like what Nathan was saying, like, I had this moment where I really had biblical repentance where it wasn't me doing any of the saving, it was me recognizing that it was God reaching out to us. I had to let go of the sin that was holding, holding me back, making me keep falling back and forward, back and forward, and reach out to be saved. And so I think it was just. That was sort of the end of the journey, you know, for the beginning of the journey. But it was like a radical moment. And he talks about that it's, you know, when you're born again, using Christianese there. It's like when we're born again, it's like we. It's a radical thing. You don't go stuffing a kid back in, you know, once they're born. It's a radical moment that should happen. You should know it, you know. And so those are the kind of things that really stuck with me. And as we worked on forevergreen, I always had those in the back of my head. I know Nathan did as well of just how do we make this film a beat by beat representation of how someone gets truly saved? And then it could be something that is a. It's a dual meaning. You know, obviously we wanted to make just a great story that everyone could, could enjoy, no matter what walk of life you're from, what belief system you have. But it was something that felt like universal in terms of everybody could identify with that character and understand the love of the tree. And then we have a chance as believers then to go and share that and say, well, this is what this is about. This is why we made it this way. This is why this happens at this moment and this moment. And it doesn't happen the other way around because of this. And so we got so excited about that because it was a way for us to start conversations with people. It's not the end. All of you just hit play, and then someone can get, you know, receive the Lord from that. It's really about us coming around and interacting and sharing our faith off of something like this. [00:13:44] Speaker A: That's good. Jeremy, I want to ask you if you felt like, and there's no wrong answer to this, obviously, do you feel like there's a moment that the Lord kind of, like, called you to do something? Like, whether it be within directing or writing or work, like, do you feel like there's a moment was like, oh, I feel like the Lord is telling me to do this? Or was it more of a, oh, I'm drawn to do this? And it seems like the Lord is kind of made me that way, or. Yeah, I'd be curious to hear just as, like, as an artist who's creating things, like, what that origin kind of moment was and if it felt like the Lord was a part of that in any way. [00:14:21] Speaker C: Yeah, great question. I think about this a lot because, you know, we. We struggle with knowing what to do. Like, it's. I struggle with it. I'm always going, lord, what am I supposed to do? What is the next. What is the next step? And what I've seen time and time again is that we basically, we just. [00:14:40] Speaker B: We. [00:14:40] Speaker C: If we're walking in our faith with the Lord and we're. Let's say it's a creative endeavor, like, we're working as hard as we can to make something great and to learn our craft. What we're doing is we're walking. We're just simply walking. We're putting one step in front of the other, and we put our foot out there. We're walking in faith, so we're not doing anything. Hopefully, that's too much divergent from what the Lord is probably leading in our lives in general. The people around us are speaking into us and saying, good job. You should be doing that. Those are the kind of confirmations of when your foot goes down and it's firm and you feel it and you're kind of, oh, yeah, that's firm. Okay, good. Now I'm gonna put the next step down, and you just keep walking. And I think that's what it is for me is you. [00:15:30] Speaker A: You. [00:15:30] Speaker C: You just try as many things as you can. You get it all out there and then you just sit back and you just let the Lord lead. And I think Nathan and I on this film, we've. We've just been. We. We talk about, like, we're just sitting back, we pop popcorn. We're just enjoying watching God unveil, you know, what he's going to do with this film. Because we basically. I feel like we've gone as far as we possibly can go. We tried as hard as we could, and now we're just. We're getting to kind of enjoy that. So that's generally how I think about it. And I think there was a. There was a moment in my life when I felt like I just talk about this film. I had kind of agreed with Nathan that, like, I would direct this. Let's do a. Let's do a film together. He had been working on a tree idea based on the Three Trees book, and it was really great. And he had been working on it for about two years. And he said, hey, Jeremy, would you come on and help me direct this? And we could work on it together and we could iron our skills and we could see how we work as a team and all these kind of things. And I was looking for something like that in my career at the moment. And it was a free time thing, so it was dipping into the free time space. But I was like, yeah, this seems like it's the thing that I've been kind of wanting to do. It would maybe take a year, so that sounds great. And so we jumped in and I went and it's been about two weeks. And I took his story that he had been working on, and I tried to find some story answers. That's my job, is to. I'm a story doctor, basically. I know how to fix things up. And so I came up with a version, something to pitch Nathan. But in the process, I did some research on trees and I was dipping into my photos that we had with my family, going on trips and stuff. And as I was researching, I came across this image of a tree. I don't want to give away the ending, but there's a moment in the film that's anchor image. And I knew when I saw that image, it was a painting that someone had done online that I came across and I was like, that's our story. I was like, or this is a second story. This is a whole different thing. And I think Nathan won't be mad at me if I pitch this to him. So I actually went. I went down to his office the day before, I was going to pitch all this stuff, and I had come up with this new outline, and I looked on his desk, and he had drawn that same drawing, and it was sitting on his desk. [00:18:05] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:18:06] Speaker C: And. And I just. I couldn't believe it. And I. His. His Cube mate was in there. He's another believer. And I was like, ryan, this is crazy. I was like, I just drew this. And where's Nathan at? You know? And he's like, he's gone. He's not. He's not here. But the. The next day, when I pitched it to Nathan, I showed him the first idea, and he was, like, kind of, like, amused, you know, like, okay, like, we're getting somewhere maybe. And then I was like, but I have to just show you this other thing. And it was the idea of the tree becoming a big redwood tree, like a sequoia, giant sequoia. And it representing God. You know, the God character in the film, it would be reversed from initially. The tree was representing us, you know, in Nathan's earlier version. So it was this moment where God really. He said to both of us, because Nathan just flipped out. He was just like, oh, my goodness, I gotta go show you this thing on my desk. And I was like, no, I've already seen it. [00:19:04] Speaker A: I already know it's a God moment for sure. [00:19:07] Speaker C: Yeah, we felt like we need to make this thing. And the last thing I'll say is, in story, in story work and films, it's really hard to find an image that. That says what your entire film is about. It's very, very hard. And it happens not very often. So I felt, like, really confident that this was that image. And we both, you know, we got it. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Well, I think it was cool that it was the other part that Jeremy, like, the. The B side of that story is that I had been questioning my story. As in, like, should I even do this? Is this going to honor the Lord? And I mean, it seems maybe silly to think about, would God care for allegory, you know, or, you know, I just. I think it came from a. Like a desire and a fear of God and wanting to not accidentally, you know, bring disrepute upon his name or. You know what I mean? Or any kind of. And what would. What about verses on fantasy? You know, this, like, you know, fiction story. So, you know, I think some people will just shake their head and go, what do we mean? That doesn't. That shouldn't matter. But, you know, but when you're thinking about this is the Word of God, the very word. And it's like, what would God think about having, you know, this or depiction of Christ or whatever? Like, that's. I know. I think some people's conscience are pricked by that. And so I was really thinking through a lot of that stuff because I had never thought through it. I was just like. I just, like, you know, grew up with Jesus story, Bible things, and it's all good. And it's like, well, is that okay? And. And so anyways, all while I'm having this sort of, you know, existential crisis, I'm like. I'm just praying. I'm like, lord, yeah. Even if I. It doesn't have to be this story. Even if Jerry, like, give Jeremy a whole new story to tell, you know, and just help me to know which way to go. And I'd actually. Why I had drawn that drawing was because I was witnessing to someone at work, and I was. They were trying to explain the gospel to them, and I, you know, did that classic Bible track image. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:16] Speaker B: And I drew that out again, not to give away the story, but. And that was the image that was on my desk. It was from when I was witnessing to someone. And so when that happened, I mean, we really took that as a God moment where it was an answer to prayer, and it was just confirmation that we needed to change gears and go towards this really great image that Jeremy had found. [00:21:41] Speaker A: That's so cool. Real quick. I know Jeremy. I was telling him. I was like, one thing about this podcast is we bring on people who are working and actually creating stuff. And so, Jeremy, I know you need to duck out here, so I wanted to give you that opportunity. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Wearing this. [00:21:54] Speaker C: I can't believe it. [00:21:54] Speaker A: Yep. [00:21:55] Speaker C: No worries at all. [00:21:56] Speaker A: But thank you so much. [00:21:57] Speaker C: I do have one more thing I was going to add on to that, though, Nathan, is that echoing back to. I had also been wrestling with the, you know, using a allegory or a parable. But I. It was a wrestling in terms of, you know, how could we come up with one that's even. That's great. That's really great. That's really clear. And that doesn't confuse anything. [00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:20] Speaker C: Because I had come from reading the Adam Raccoon books, and they're so clear, and they actually helped me make those connections. And then again, that whiteboard drawing that. That I saw as a high schooler, you know, there's just like, God can use. He can use the visual. Visual language of art to communicate really big ideas in very simple ways. You don't have to be an amazing artist even to. To do that. It helps, but it's. It, you know. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Well, you had even said the other day that those. When you were wrestling through those. That was really stick figure drawings. [00:22:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:55] Speaker B: And that was really helpful. Like, here is this. That equals your sin. And here is this. And why you need Christ. Here's the ark. And it was just like little simple. [00:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah, it was like a simple drawing boat. It was an ark. And he wrote equal sign and it was Christ. And I was like, oh, yeah, the art story points to Christ. It was like, you have to get in that boat. It's a crazy thing that they're doing to the world. That looks crazy, but there was just that clarity and, you know, and it was. That's all that speaker could give was those simple drawings. But it worked well. Thank you. Thank you guys for having me and Nathan. And it's just. It's a joy. And please go see forevergreen. As soon as we have it available. [00:23:40] Speaker B: We should be showing it. We're hoping this holiday season, like between Thanksgiving and Christmas, so we'll hopefully have more to share on our socials soon. [00:23:49] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, Jeremy, I appreciate you. [00:23:52] Speaker C: Thank you, guys. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:54] Speaker B: So what about you? [00:23:54] Speaker A: Do you feel like there was a moment that you sort of felt like God kind of called you to this project? [00:24:00] Speaker B: I think the tree story that Jeremy was talking about before, it started as a desire to tell that old Christian folk tale, the tale of the three trees. It's a fantastic story. If no one's read it, you should read it. Yeah. And I think someone had done a version in the 80s with really great illustrations that was really cool. But it's been around for a while. And I'm like, well, this has got to be public domain. I don't think anyone knows who actually wrote it. I think it was a lot of oral, you know, passed down tradition kind of thing, but I could be wrong about that. But anyways, when I read that, I was deep in that spiritual depression. It was about two years from 2016 through 2017. So it was really 2018, the birth of my daughter, that really helped me get out of that. So, you know, right at the end of 2015, it's like. Like all the way down. And it was like a slow and steady journey up. And during that journey, the Lord was. You know, I had a great someone who was discipling me and helping me think through things and reading God's word. And it was kind of the stair stepping thing. And. And if you've Read the Tale of the Three Trees, you'll know that it is that God uses the humble things of the world to shame the wise, or what we think, even our own, you know, wise in our own eyes, wisdom. And really, these trees are humbled but then used for a much greater purpose. And I think that I didn't realize it back then, but what I was responding to when I saw it, I mean, that thing, it brought me to tears because I had this desire that God was putting in me to want to use the gifts that he has given me explicitly for his glory. And I know that. Let me preface this with. I knew intellectually that I could do that with my vocation at Disney as an animator, I could do that. Anyone can do that. It doesn't matter what you're doing, if you're a teacher, if you're, you know, a car mechanic or what doesn't matter. You. You can wake up every morning, give glory to God and be a witness for Christ. And then, you know, you don't have to make a film. You don't have to become a director for Christian animation to be doing that. Yeah, but there was still. It felt like a calling, something that was something I couldn't ignore. And really the first reaction when after reading I was like, someone needs to make this into an anime thing. Yeah, I should make this into an animated thing. [00:26:35] Speaker A: Totally. [00:26:36] Speaker B: You know, and, and anyway, so that's. That's what got me really excited to start doing a film, to start making a film. But what. What I think I was reacting to now, in retrospect, was that I saw myself in that story as a filmmaker. But what I mean by that is that God could even use me to do something. So I think reading the Tale the Three Trees helped me see that God could take this unpro, like, unprepared person, me, which I didn't know a ton about storytelling. You know, I knew as far as animation, so I knew a lot about storytelling. But I had never made my own film successfully. I'd done one in college, but I felt like that wasn't very successful because I was still trying to fumble around, feel how to do things, and so, and, and so that it almost gave me permission in a way to at least go. And so what I think I confused at that moment was that that was the story that I should tell as opposed to. That was almost the story I needed to hear in order to feel like the Lord could do something through me. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Totally. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Does that make sense? [00:27:52] Speaker A: So it was like they're the same, like not only is it the story you're telling, it's the story you need to be told. [00:27:58] Speaker B: Right, right. And so forevergreen really isn't the Tale of the three trees. As the story evolved, I realized that actually the Tale of the Three Trees has got a certain repetition, like the Three Little Pigs, where it wasn't great. Like, audiences would be too far ahead of the story and things like that. So, like, slowly but surely it was like, well, maybe it's just one tree and maybe it's this kind of thing. You know what I mean? So it kept evolving. [00:28:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Until finally, you know, that moment when Jeremy came in and he tried to invert, you know, the tree character as sort of this benevolent tree character versus the being the one that needed to learn a lesson. Like, that was more us anyway, which is very much how the Tale of Three Trees is. It's very much us. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:41] Speaker B: And anyway, so. And that's what I needed to hear. And as soon as that happened, I was like, no, this is the story. But Tell the Three Trees is really showing how God can. Could take me as this filmmaker that doesn't really know much yet and transform that desire into something that would glorify him and. And hopefully give a. An opportunity, a platform to be able to share the gospel, you know. So anyways, that's how that all sort of happened. [00:29:10] Speaker A: But that's so cool. [00:29:12] Speaker B: But yeah, I just felt like that story was so uplifting and really made me feel like, okay, even though I'm struggling, even though I can't, I'm in this dark season. And I felt like the most ill equipped because of. Because I felt like again, I told you I was going in that spiritual battle, that place. Yeah, I know. Your film touches on this as well, where there's. When you're feeling convicted of sin, when you feel like the enemy is constantly bringing you before God and trying to point at all the flaws. Right. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:58] Speaker B: And accusing us, as it talks about in Revelation before the Throne. And you feel very much, very inadequate and almost disqualified. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Totally. [00:30:12] Speaker B: And so I'm like, who am I to do some spiritual thing? I feel like the greatest sinner who ever lived. And so I would just be a hypocrite, actually, if I did something like this. And these were all the lies of the devil, you know, these are things that maybe just try to stop us from making something like Forever Green. I don't know. And so, yeah, there was just a lot of. I mean, this story has its roots in suffering and pain and spiritual depression and God's transforming power through that as he's growing and developing me personally as a storyteller. So anyways, now I feel like I know what I want to be when I grow up. I feel like the Lord had galvanized in my heart to want to tell more stories with eternal weight and purpose, more spiritually appraised kinds of stories that would point to Christ or redemptive arcs or whatever, you know? [00:31:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. You kind of already answering my follow up question. But first I should say I deeply relate to you, especially the unqualified. I was like, oh, creatively, not unqualified, I guess, or maybe that too. But. But more than anything, just I feel like I grew up with this. Like, don't be a hypocrite. Like, it is better to not be on stage at church. What was I trying to say? It's better to like essentially sin alone than it is to like try to preach the gospel and sin. [00:31:44] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:31:45] Speaker A: Like for sure. Seeing lots of fallen pastors and stuff in my childhood, it's like there's this like, oh, if I'm sinning, like, just make sure you stay away from everything. Don't put the name of Christ on anything. And I understand where that's coming from, but I think that even has it been pulled out of that the enemy still tries to use. Like even your past is like, well, what about when you were, you know, hooking up with people and doing this and you know, it's like even if you've made reconciles, even if you ask for forgiveness, it's like no one wants to hear from somebody like that, you know, who's done these things or whatever, you know. So I just, I think a lot of creatives can relate to sort of feel like the minute they want to bring the gospel and what they're doing, they're not sure if they should be the person saying, you know. [00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I will say, and I think it's important to caveat is that I. There is an element of that that I think is good. [00:32:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:40] Speaker B: To maybe think through those things and should you be on stage and should you be leading worship when something in your own life and you have this habitual sin pattern? [00:32:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally agree with that. [00:32:51] Speaker B: And so, but I think, because what was happening and maybe you can relate to this was that the Lord was purifying me through that time and it was like I didn't have a deep love for God's word until it became essential. Like it felt like a survival. I needed it in order to combat the lies that were infiltrating my mind from the enemy. And it was crazy. Some of the thoughts that had come across my mind never in my entire life. And some of which I would never repeat, you know, just intrusive thoughts of just, you know, against Christ, against his word, against. And feeling like I Like, how do you. Had I committed that unpardonable sin? Am I dead and doomed? And that was actually where grace abounding the chief of sinners was very helpful. [00:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:47] Speaker B: It was Bunyan who actually I saw he was a kindred spirit living, you know, almost 400 some years ago, you know, for. Yeah, it was 1600s. [00:33:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:59] Speaker B: And. And so that. Reading that book again, just weeping over that book, just seeing that, okay, truly there's no temptation that is not uncommon to man. [00:34:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:13] Speaker B: That. That is that everyone has done these sins. And here's an example of someone who had sinned the exact same way. And God still used him greatly to write Pilgrim's Progress. Right. Which was for a long time the most commonly found book other than the Bible and purchased for so many centuries. Right. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:31] Speaker B: And so. And still very widely in print. And people read today even, and are comforted by. And so. But that whole experience was spiritually shaping again. The Lord was purifying me. I hated. I hated even, even things at work. Somehow those. Those thoughts were attacking me at work where that I used to find comfort and solace or whatever. And whatever I was doing at work. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:05] Speaker B: And then it was like it was taken from me. And even simple joys like playing with my son Lego. I had always envisioned myself wanting to play Legos with my kids or whatever. And the joy of that was taken away from me. [00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:20] Speaker B: All that mattered was me figuring out what was happening with my soul at that moment. And remember, I was. I believe I was already saved. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:27] Speaker B: It was just this was like this post, like going into the wilderness moment where it was like, okay, is this genuine? You know, and then it was like the Lord thrust me and I had to deal with some pass sin and confess that. And. And so it was one of these things where my heart was not allowing me to continue to sin in the way that I had habitually. Now I still sin. [00:35:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:49] Speaker B: It's like that first John, if we say that we have no sin, we're liars. Right. It's that. That those habitual sins that have. That were disconnecting us or keeping us from coming to Christ or whatever. And so it was that I feel was happening through this whole moment. Of trying to figure out what I was going to do. But really that end of 2015, all of 2016, it wasn't until January of 2017 that the Tale of the Three Trees came across my lap. But there was a whole year of the Lord working on my heart and the hypocrisy and really just things that. And I remember praying a very specific prayer, and it was very earnest and desiring the Lord to please show me my sin, that I didn't want to have sin before him, that I wanted to this again. I had got. Just gotten saved and baptized or re. Baptized. And so. And the Lord answered that prayer. And now I have almost a fear of what I pray. [00:36:57] Speaker A: And I was going to say, it's. [00:36:58] Speaker B: One of those, be careful what you pray for. Be careful what you pray for. You might just get it. And even my wife later was like, talk to me about escape for those race. Because it affected her, affected her whole family. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:12] Speaker B: I mean, there was a moment where I was like, mentally checked out. Thankfully, our kiddos were really young. We only had one kid. The second one was on the way, though. But that's a lot for my wife to take on and for me to start losing my mind. And so that was. That was a really hard season. And. And that. And so just to go ahead and say, like, if I was in the middle of that, I mean, I wouldn't be thinking even considering it. It was that I had already been getting built up and trained up and the Lord was showing me scripture and he was working on my heart, and then that thing fell on my lap. You know what I mean? The tale of three trees. So, yeah, I think he. Yeah, it's just prayerfully thinking through that, lest we accidentally give someone permission, you know, while they're in flagrant sin, to just be like, I can do this. You know, I think really should be listening to what the Lord's and the Spirit is saying to your heart. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad you said that too. I absolutely agree. I think that it's. Yeah. What we're not saying is like, take your sin with you, make it a body along the way. Yeah, it's like, no, it's. Everything has to be put at the foot of the cross. You know what I mean? It's gonna. I heard someone say God doesn't ask for much, but he does ask for everything. Yeah, like, yeah, that's right. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Because we don't have much to give. We don't have much to give. That's right. [00:38:34] Speaker A: But he's good. You Know, and there's a. [00:38:36] Speaker B: And there's a part in the film which is exactly that. It is an allegorized visual of laying that down. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:44] Speaker B: Laying that sin down. And so. But you got to do that before you can reach out and grab hold of that salvation that's available. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. When you decided to do it, it's on the calendar. There's steps being taken. Do you feel like you're met with a resistance to that, whether spiritual or practical or. [00:39:04] Speaker B: Of course, yeah. All the way, the whole time. I mean, I'm sure you can relate, I think, especially when you're trying to do something with eternal significance. That is, you're going to be met with that spiritual battle. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Well, I think the whole first battle from 2016 to 2018. [00:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:26] Speaker B: Was the first barrier as I was coming out of that, I think, you know, was getting more traction of people wanting to help out with this thing. And then. And then as more people, you know, 10 people volunteering the time turned to 50, turned to 100, turned to 200, then you feel the burden of not wanting to let them down. Right. And so. But there were plenty of times where it was hard on family. It was hard technologically. So I would say those are probably the three hurdles. It would be spiritual, familial, and technological. [00:40:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:06] Speaker B: And each one had its battles, relational, I guess you could say, instead of familial. Because it was just Jeremy and I. It was hard at times where it was like, bro, I am. I am trying really hard or I cannot do this. My wife needs me here. You know what I mean? Like, there were moments where it was. Yeah, because remember, we're doing this. [00:40:26] Speaker C: We were. [00:40:27] Speaker B: We created this film. It was a for free pro bono project. 200 volunteers, five and a half years. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Whoa. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Really? It's six now for Jeremy and I, because we started September 2019. And I had been working two years even prior to that, because it was January 2017. 17. Right. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:45] Speaker B: And so I'm coming up on. What is that? Nine years this January. And so my wife, for almost a decade has been patiently trying to support and wait. And there are moments where she's like, don't talk to me about this film. Yeah, I don't want to hear about it. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Rebecca, my wife, the same way, where she's like, my only goal for this film is that it be done. Yeah. [00:41:12] Speaker B: You got everyone, you got prayer team, everyone in your Bible study and the whole, whole church is praying for this thing to get done for the sake of their wife and their marriage and I just, you know, and, but she understands. She's, she comes from an art background as well as interior designer and she owned her own business. So she gets what it takes. I mean, you know, to, to do a startup essentially of, and come from nothing and to build something small that, you know, start with something small and build something bigger. And so I could, God knew the woman that I needed to be married to. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker B: And I'm so grateful for her patience and sacrifice. And it was just, But I, I, you know, we could see the writing on the wall. So that was, there were moments where we would, you know, have conflict because of this thing getting in the way and, and trying to balance that and not go too far or shirk my fatherly or husbandly duties, you know, before, before the Lord. And just in the name of. This is for the Lord, you know, And I've heard stories of missionaries and people who have done that and their families, you know, just torn apart because of that. Anyways, I think that there's a podcast, a great podcast. I was listening to it called the Intentional Family, I Believe, and it was really cool and that it was mentioned on there. And you know, my desire is to be intentional father. And so you're being pulled in many directions and I'm trying to hold on a full time job in the midst of all that. So there's crunch times that are happening between each film and then maybe a little more downtime and, and people that I'm asking to do free work for. You're basically asking, hey, you want to do a 40 hour work week? [00:43:00] Speaker A: I know. And then you're like, and I'm going to follow up with you and ask you why it's not done. Well, you know, we could never really. [00:43:07] Speaker B: We could never really do that. I mean, there were moments where with volunteers, you were like, yeah, you would just kindly ask, like, oh, hey, you know, how's it going? And we always gave everyone an out. We said, hey, you know, if this is too much, we totally understand. And, and so everyone was so grateful, gracious, and with their time though, and apologetic. I was like, you don't have to be apologetic at all. Like, this is a for free thing. You don't, you know, and we tried to reassure people. There were some people who came on and then had to leave, you know, because things change in their life and when you're doing something that's such a slow burn, you just have to expect that. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Totally. [00:43:42] Speaker B: So anyways, it was, we're just grateful that we did finish it and that it seems to be resonating with folks, so that's awesome. [00:43:49] Speaker A: I felt like I had prayed for two years at age 10 for the Lord to tell me, like, sort of like vocationally how I can glorify him. And I felt like he told me filmmaking. And then there's a whole version of the story of like making that. My identity being like, I'll take it from here, God. And you know, crashing and burning. But that being said, I felt like I had. I have all these patterns of like, okay, solid week, you know, 14 hours writing, like really trying to cram, make this, force this into being. And just met with pretty much a lot of failure and things not coming to fruition. And I felt like when the Lord. I kind of like laid that down. Filmmaking for four years. When the Lord brought it back and I was a dad, I'm like, I'm not sure I know how to do this without making it, like everything. You're gonna have to help me. And I felt like he's like, it's not storming a castle, it's watering a garden. And I feel like it was like 20 minutes a day. I type and then I go back to being a dad or my full time job directing commercials. And it was like. I'm like, it will never get done like this. But in hindsight, why it wasn't fast. It was still. It got done. The other things didn't. You know what I mean? And it ended up being quicker than I even thought. So, yeah, like the Lord, his ways, you know, is better, at least for me. [00:45:05] Speaker B: I like the. I like that analogy though. The storming the castle. It's not that it's watering a garden. And that's what it felt like. We would have little things to help us not rationalize, but just better comfort us. Maybe the speed at which we were going, because sometimes it was frustrating. I'm sure you understand where you'd make some great progress and then it would. You just stop and. And we eventually came up with this little pithy line that we said, we move at the speed of people's generosity. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Good. [00:45:38] Speaker B: And so you can't ask for more. And we would pray over the project every week. We would pray for our crew. We would pray that it wouldn't just be the quality of the product, but the quality in which we made it. Because we're witnessing to people. And what worst thing you could do is you get a great product out and everyone hates you afterwards. [00:46:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:01] Speaker B: And you've, you know, dragged good name of Christ through the mud. Because you. You were acting like a jerk or you were demanding something. And so we really did try to be patient, and we kept each other in check, and we're very prayerful, and there's nothing like bringing it before the Lord to calm your spirit. But, yeah, that totally resonates with me. Um, but, you know, it's not without its challenges. You know, that's. It's hard when you're going through that and you wish it were going faster because again, relationally, something's tense and you're trying to relieve it, and you're just like, I just want to fix this. And that means it needs to be done and storm that castle, you know? [00:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Will it. Will it into being? [00:46:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Can I ask you, like, a practical craft question? Sort of. Of course, yeah. Um, I mean, especially when you're working with people volunteering, but even just across the board, if you're collaborating with somebody, whether it be Jeremy or somebody else, and you're like, oh, no, I really feel strongly about it going this way. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:08] Speaker A: And they're like, oh, no, no, I don't think that works. And you're kind of stuck in the in between. And maybe coming from, like, a more structured background with Disney and stuff, you guys are like, oh, well, just whoever has this role decides. But I feel like at times I've wanted to walk that line. In the past, I've inclined to people pleasing and then ended up not liking what something is. So then I overcorrect, you know, and I try to always speak kindly, but, you know, you hate to be like, well, I'm the director, so. But there is also. I don't know. I'm just curious to hear your response to that. Or were there very, like, clear roles of, like, the final and a tiebreaker this person decides or. Right. [00:47:44] Speaker B: So the short answer would be, I think when you work at a place like Disney, they are. Everyone knows their role, and everyone can bring their unique gifting to the table and help collaborate and make it better. And I think that there is a. At the core of everything we do. And I think that's just been instilled in me now, being in the industry for around 18 or so years, is that I. When you collaborate, the product becomes better. Right. And so. And I've seen that even with directors who. I appreciate, the directors who I've worked with in the past, people like Byron Howard, you know, who will be completely open to hearing something, and they are. I respect their opinions and their vision, and it's great. It could be great on their own, but they still allow the ideas to come to the table. And I'm like, gosh, that's awesome. And look how great the products turn out. And so there's a bit of, like, who am I to say? I think I got everything. And also, I think there's an element of. As a believer, you should kind of have that posture anyways. Right. I think that we know that God often uses the, you know, the lowly things, the humble things, the shame, the wise and the proud and the. So I think we should, you know, take heed lest we fall as well, for sure. And so a great idea can come from anywhere. I think that's where that's my default. And I think Jeremy is very much the same way. In story, you have to be so used to just chucking drawings and not being precious about anything. Right? [00:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker B: And so I think that that's where you just want to, I guess, check yourself before you start going, I'm the director. But there are times where, if it. If it serves, if it's really in contrast to the story. Because let's go back to what Jeremy said about that visual. This visual has a meaning ascribed to it, and it actually has spiritual ramifications if we say something the wrong order. Right. So someone may say, well, what if the character did this? And you'd be like, I understand what you. You're saying, and I get the spirit of what you're saying. And we may even be able to pepper some of that in. Right. Or it's almost validating the part that is good about what they're contributing. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Yeah, but. [00:50:05] Speaker B: And then just kind of walking them through how that might alter the thing that you, as the director are trying to say. And I would say 9.9 times out of 10, everyone's like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, right. That's cool. But. And. But then I'll reaffirm them again at the end and say, yes, but you have a point. There is a problem with the pacing here. It's not what you said was your solution. You're like, what if he just hurried through this thing? And it's like, well, actually, we need that time to. To breathe because this is a moment where he makes a big decision. Yeah, right. But your. Your note about the pacing is totally valid. What do you think about maybe peppering that in here so that we can hurry through this moment and then pause here? Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, so I've actually heard them, acknowledged them, and from a place of, I would hope, humility. Want to. Because I don't have all the answers. Right, yeah. Go. There is. There's got to be something there. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Right. Even as an audience member, we always ask people, our children, what is this? We changed part of the ending of the story because they hated it and they wanted some sort of resolution to see something. And so we listened because it was. There are audience. Right. And there's a. There's a time where you shouldn't listen because it's something, you know, you don't want to make something by, you know, sort of group. Group, yeah. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Committee. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Committee, yeah. Thank you. Designed by committee things. So. But this was something that made sense and just being open to whatever people would. What comments you would receive from your crew, from your spouse, from your children, from a stranger, because they'll be your audience. And so. But I think you need to have the discernment to know what to pick. And it may not be the thing on the surface or the thing that they're trying to solve. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:59] Speaker B: It may not be their solve. There might be. We always talk about the spirit behind the note. Right. So I think the principally, as a principle, and practically, I would say, try to extract the spirit of the note rather than the letter of the note. Yeah, Right. And we see this, even the Bible, there's, you know, there's a letter and then there's the spirit of the. Of the law. And so I think fixating on the letter and not trying to understand the spirit of it could be detrimental. And so I think that there's an element of us needing to do the same thing even in our everyday vocations to kind of say, okay, what is the spirit behind this? So I don't know. Does that help? [00:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's good. Absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree that I think that notes, they all point to something one way or another. There's something valid in there. And what's often even more important is like, oh, there's something here that's bumping. I liked what you were saying about validating it, but also explaining what it's kind of like just once again recasting the vision and the goal and what this means. You know, I do think that's something I was, you know, being on the quieter side. I felt like. I remember especially I've been doing commercials. [00:53:13] Speaker B: I'm like. [00:53:13] Speaker A: I feel like essentially my job more and more. I, like, have a plan creatively, but then it's essentially just walk around saying the vision over and over again to everybody department, you know what I mean? [00:53:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:25] Speaker A: Well, Well, I think. [00:53:26] Speaker B: I mean, that's what we did as well. Before we even brought people on, we told people, we were very upfront that this was a sort of a spiritual film at its heart. But it, you know, as an allegory and a. Even a parable that one of the Jesus's parables that he told it has a sort of familial component to it as well that we can relate to, anyone can relate to. [00:53:49] Speaker C: So. [00:53:49] Speaker B: But we want to just caveat that this is how we'll be talking about it, you know, and so, because we said that up, you know, because we didn't want anyone to say this was a blindside them or a bait and switch or anything like that, but we wanted to just make sure that, like, here's your out. If you don't like that, please. Yeah. And I think out of 201 people, we asked only one person left after hearing that, you know, and so. Which was totally okay. You know, we didn't want people to feel uncomfortable or to give to something that they just didn't. They just couldn't stomach later or something. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:22] Speaker B: So it was very easy to come back to those core ideas or the values, what we were trying to say. And the crew, I will say those moments where maybe we disagreed or even Jeremy and I. Jeremy and I, like I said, we were very equally yoked. And anything that maybe made that clear was always like, oh, yes. And Jeremy was a fantastic partner in that. He was always. His ideas were always malleable. Maybe it's because it's time and story or whatever, but he was always very gracious. When I would be like, what if we did this thing? I feel strongly we need this little thing. He was like, yeah, let's try it, you know? And it wasn't like, I don't know. And even if he did think that in the back of his head, he would allow me the space to try a thing. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:08] Speaker B: But a lot of times there were been times where it's like, I don't know. And he would circle back. I would always. I could tell that if he had an idea, if it didn't stick to me the first time, he would maybe come back, you know, a week later and pitch it again. And. And sometimes I'd be like, yeah, I could see where you're coming from. Or sometimes I'd be like, I don't know still, you know, and. But we would just work back and forth. And it was never like, I'm taking that personally. We always wanted the goal, the North Star was that we wanted this to be the clearest thing, like he was saying with those Adam Raccoon. But we, like, we knew it was at stake. Yeah. And so we wanted. Because, you know, anything a man can write, another man can allegorize. And so if we, we just wanted to make that a thin gap between how much people can actually walk away or, you know, inject into it so that lest they accidentally over overanalyze and over allegorize it. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:02] Speaker B: To their detriment or something. Or see something in the picture that we hadn't meant to do. [00:56:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:07] Speaker B: So we tried to be very, very clear with what we were saying. [00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker B: And so usually when someone would present an idea, it's like, that's going to bring clarity or that's not going to bring clarity. [00:56:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:16] Speaker B: You don't make it personal, you make it about the goal that we have, a shared goal. And sometimes I'll say it. Then he's like, but what about if it says this? You're like, ooh, yeah, you don't want to say that. So nevermind, let's scratch that. So having that to bounce off of is incredible. And then it really didn't happen a whole lot with the crew because I think if I would do what I said, then that would just bring everyone back on track. Because most of the time I will say someone would bring an idea to the table and we would plus it. Right. So like nine times out of ten was really, when someone were to bring an idea, we would take it. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:47] Speaker B: And that's actually another reason why the story got more ambitious. Yeah. We set out to make a seven minute film and it ended up becoming 12 minutes, you know, and that's when we had our, you know, an amazing editor, Jeff Draheim, who is notorious for, you know, cutting things, you know, ruthlessly. Like, you don't need this. You know, tons of footage on the editing floor. You know, jokingly, we call him Mr. Guillotine. You know, he was just like, chop it on the, you know, the edited the editing floor. And. But it was, but he was the one who said, no, this needs to be longer. You need more time for this to breathe. I'm like, okay, if you're saying this, yeah, we know it's true. Right. It gave us permission to do that, to open it up, to let it breathe. And it's like, like this might just have more of a mid century kind of pacing to it, which has kind of an old soul feel. And the more we thought about it was like kind of like that. You know, people can't. Like this. The. The ADHD generation of constant phone clicking and swiping and doom scrolling. Can't sit through Bambi anymore. [00:58:01] Speaker A: Totally. [00:58:02] Speaker B: You know, but my kids, I mean, they still love it. You know, I don't know if it's their go to or probably most people, because, you know, you've got these long shots of just nature at the beginning. And I love it for its artistic and technical achievements. Just, you know, with multiplane camera and just the beauty. And I'm just. I nerd out about seeing like. Oh, and that they must have been doing that effects animation in the waterfall way back there in the other plane. And. You know what I mean? And how they're. I'm thinking how they're like getting that parallax and between all the different layers and. And so I love it on a different level, but also I just love the pacing and it's calming to see those, you know, beautiful watercolor backgrounds and. Yeah. And I just feel like. I think it was Miyazaki, that his critique of Western film was that it doesn't have any ma. And I might be not pronouncing that correctly, but I believe it was. And this is hearsay, so don't quote me on this, but. Or don't quote him on this rather. But it's. I think it's the space between words. Right. So it's just wall to wall dialogue or wall to wall explaining things or. [00:59:11] Speaker C: Wall to wall score. [00:59:12] Speaker B: There's no quiet moments. And so I love that idea, though, that there is an actual word for the space between words, ma. And there's no MA in Western film to just breathe like that big opening of Bambi. And I think that's why I love the first act of Wall E so much, is that it's just that. [00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:37] Speaker B: And there's so much pantomime and storytelling and it's like, yeah, you don't need dialogue. And I think every animator would say, amen. [00:59:43] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. [00:59:45] Speaker A: I would even say, even as a filmmaker, like, I was on a walk yesterday and I was having this thought, which is, if you ask somebody their favorite moment in scenes, I think it's actually the second after the thing happens that they like. Like when William Wallace says, they can take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom hard, cut to something else going on. No, it's like. It's the after moment of that. It's the reaction. It's. I realized my favorite moments are usually what happens after dialogue or what happens after an Action. You know, those. And that's like, on a smaller level, but I feel like it's so true. And it's especially puts you to the test when you're making a short film. Right, Right. Like, how do we do this in a short film? [01:00:24] Speaker B: Right. You know, well, think about. As you were saying, think about Gladiator when it's like, right. Or like, oh, that's awesome. You know, like, that's so great. And it's. There's no dialogue, and it says everything you need. And so our film, it really. It doesn't have dialogue. And there's reasons for that. I had a buddy, Arthur Ortiz. He's. He's a great looper. And he does. Yeah, he did. What was it, the tree voice. And it was. Then we took it from our sound designer, Blake Hollins. Him and his team had actually put. Modulated his voice, so there was dialogue in that sense where there's kind of grunting. And so Arthur brought this really great kind of character to the tree. But other than that, there wasn't words, though. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:17] Speaker B: So. But. Yeah, so, but. And there's so much that you can communicate, and it becomes universal, really, because of the lack of dialogue. You don't need translations. Right. [01:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So anyway, that's a long, roundabout way of saying, so that the editor that had given us permission to open it up opened up so many other doors. And then, you know, if time would fail me, if I, you know, mentioned the. The effects artist or the modelers that wanted to add a little extra detail or themselves into it and go, you know, it'd be really cool if we did this, you know, and it's like, that really complicates things, but you're right. That would be cool. And so it was always this. Yes. And sort of improvisational spirit behind the whole film. [01:02:07] Speaker A: That's cool. I love it. I want to be respectful of your time. I did want to ask you, is there anything you feel like the Lord is calling you to now rest? [01:02:19] Speaker B: I think after going for almost a decade, you know, and between there, there were a lot of, you know, supervising projects and things that were. That we had done in, you know, throughout the whole creation of Forevergreen. I feel like listening to my wife and wanting to spend, like, kind of recalibrate a little, you know. Yeah, she. She always listens to your wife. That's not what I meant earlier. [01:02:52] Speaker A: I. [01:02:52] Speaker B: Finally listening to my wife. No, I. You know, I think it's. She's such a great sounding board and trying to think through what's profitable and what is worth my time and what is maybe not worth my time. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:05] Speaker B: And so I think it's a great season after doing a huge project and maybe you're familiar with this or you're going through a lot of the festival run as well. It's so busy and you just don't have a ton of time. It's just kind of like you finish this project, you spend, you're exhausted, and then everyone wants you to get up and do another marathon to share the film around the world with these festival circuits. It's. And so I feel like I'm still running even though I'm like out of breath and you know, I've already run. [01:03:30] Speaker A: The marathon and what's the question you get at all the festivals is like you already started, you already work on the next one. Right, Right. [01:03:38] Speaker B: It's what's next? And you know, I'm kind of, I, I know it's well meaninged because everyone is excited. [01:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:44] Speaker B: But again, I go back to that moment where people can't just sit with a thing that was created. [01:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:51] Speaker B: That's actually my critique for this, like now having made a thing. And yes, there are ideas, there are other things I want to do, and I hope the Lord gives me those opportunities. But it has to be really clear. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:04] Speaker B: As far as him opening the door, because if his hand's not in it, I don't want to be a part of it. [01:04:09] Speaker A: That's right. [01:04:10] Speaker B: Right. Otherwise. Because then I'm working in my own energy and not through the spirit. And I, I just don't want to. I do not. [01:04:18] Speaker C: Not. [01:04:19] Speaker B: I've done it before. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:21] Speaker B: It's a vain effort. It's a vain effort. It's all vanity. And so I want, I want that spiritually appraised work. And, and so I'll wait if that means waiting. But when people say I know again, it's well meaning when they ask what's next? Because they, they just want more and they want to know. Yeah, okay. You're on this upward trajectory. As if pausing a moment is, is antithetical to that or it's, it's a sign of failure, you know? [01:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:51] Speaker B: But there's a part of me that wants to kind of take a moment just to breathe, spend time with family, to be able to just not really have to think about the next thing. Yeah. I think as an artist it's hard. You know, you're always kind of percolating in your brain what, what you want to do or stories. But I Think this, the, the stories that are worth people's time and attention, they come to you and then they, they, they stop being a thing. That is that you're trying to check a box to just check the next thing. Box. [01:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:24] Speaker B: And it then becomes something that you have to say. [01:05:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:29] Speaker B: And that's the stories you want to tell as a director. You don't want to force yourself to say something. Yeah, right. That's just another way of saying, well, I guess people are asking me to keep to what's the next thing, so I better figure that out as opposed to. I feel really compelled and inspired and I feel like someone has to say this thing. [01:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:05:49] Speaker B: I didn't understand that before where it was like I just wanted to be a director because it looked like the next thing I was supposed to do. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:57] Speaker B: If that's you who's listening to this, don't do that. I would, I would recommend you rethinking if you should actually do that. That promotion in your brain that is just because you climb that ladder that people say is a good thing to climb. There's a lot of problems that come with climbing that ladder too. And you know, suddenly you find yourself with less time or there's less whatever, you know, I mean there's trade offs, no solution. There's always just trade offs. And so I think that for me now is that my desire is that the Lord would put that in my heart, that thing that he wants me to say. And I. My prayer is that, that here I am, Lord, use me if you want. And I think that's where I'm trying to have peace at knowing. And, and again, that's not because there's lack of ideas. There are ideas, big ideas. But I'm like, I can't venture off and do those things if the Lord's not behind it. And so I think now I'm going to be resting for a season. I don't know how long that will be, but I just, I think that I want to have some time with family. Some time, some, some time with the wife to just have to start building our routines back up, you know, and to make sure that I'm not slacking there. So recalibration season. [01:07:27] Speaker A: That's such a good answer. I feel like that is an answer of someone who believes they have a father who loves them and provides. And it's not coming from a space of fear or lack. You know, hustle culture is like at an all time popularity. And I. Hard work is good, you know, but also to trust that it's not like we have to build everything ourselves that God will guide. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah. If he opens the door tomorrow and it's very apparent, then, you know, we're being prayerful about it, then okay. I guess I don't get a break. But. But I still. I mean, that's at least what's in my heart now is to want to do that. But I'm glad you feel that way because I just. I. I will say that I wish that believers. Because I've gotten that question from believers. I wish that the question would more be, how do we get this out there? Yeah. Like, why can't we focus on the thing we just made? [01:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Because I think that there's a lot of work to be done to get this for other people to see. It's almost as if we don't have a catalog, an entire Netflix or Disney catalog. Total content. [01:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Then no one will listen to it. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Exist. Yeah. Yeah. [01:08:35] Speaker B: Right. And so there's part of me that goes, why can't we take this small thing? [01:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:41] Speaker B: Right. I mean, we have parables that talk about a mustard seed, something so small. And then, you know, if we have faith of a mustard seed, God uses these. These little. Don't despise a day of small beginnings. It's like these little. Or, you know, the things I was saying earlier, but not. It's like the humble things shaming the wise. It's. It's like, why. Why can't we as believers say that this small little thing could do something great? You know? And why can't we just focus on that seed for a moment instead of just desiring a forest right away. Yeah. Or the plan for the forest. Like, show me the plan for the forest and then I'll invest. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:19] Speaker B: And on the one hand, I understand that, but on the other hand, it's like, where's your faith? [01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:24] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? Where? It's like. And so we built a thing that we want and hope will inspire others, and that will be a great tool for believers to be able to want to share their faith with other people, to be bold and share the gospel. Like, this is a picture at best of the components of the gospel. It's not the gospel, though. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Right. [01:09:49] Speaker B: And it's not even in the. In the tree is not Christ. Right. It is a Christ like fake character, but it's not Christ. Like, this is. We always said this is going to be hopefully a door that opens up. And it has been. It's great. You can. Through the Guise of talking about our craft or whatever you can say, let me tell you about what it actually means and why it means something to me. Well, you can't tell that story without sharing Christ and the gospel. Yeah, right. [01:10:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:15] Speaker B: And so that's a really powerful tool, which, by the way, we don't need. We just need God's word. But hey, I believe that if you have the opportunity to choose the topic of conversation, you can choose the topic of all topics. Christ. Right? [01:10:32] Speaker A: Totally. [01:10:32] Speaker B: And so this is just one way of being able to choose the topic of conversation. So anyways, I'm just excited about that little seed for now. And so we've got plans and ideas of how we could even take this one little IP and do something. Maybe it becomes a book or maybe becomes something else or whatever. We want to do that, that and just kind of sit in this. And maybe we don't. Maybe it's just the film. Right. Again, not getting too far ahead of ourselves. We just want to say, hey, what this. This thing is, let's let this grow and let's. Because we really haven't been able to share it to the Christian. The broader Christian culture or the world or whatever. Like. No, but we hope that is beneficial and impactful. So that's my hope. And then my hope is that we can just focus on this for a beat. [01:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Hello. [01:11:26] Speaker B: Man. I was just having a conversation with a brother when we were at our conference called Hutchmouth. And that was a really neat conference, that one in Hume Lake Creative Art Conference. I would highly recommend both of those conferences for what's it called? So Hutchmoot is put on by the Rabbit Room. And that's a fantastic one. It was in Franklin, Tennessee. And then the Hume Lake Creative Arts conference that they hold, I think just the week after. So they're both. In October. We went to both. And that's up in Hume Lake. There was actually a Christian camp. It's the most scenic, wonderful, gorgeous thing. And right there in Kings Canyon, Sequoia national park area. And it's this little area that before. It's almost like God had staked this little plot of land, you know, like, this is mine. Because the. That camp had actually started before it was actually a national forest. And so they're kind of grandfathered in in this little area of this national forest, which. And it's this beautiful lake and they. They just do it right up there. That's cool. Someone had said, I. That some pastor had said it's a. It's a thin space and what they mean by that is it's a thin space between earth and heaven. It's that. It's that wonderful. Like you feel that connected to the Lord and the. The staff is so warm and you just feel like it's close to heaven being there. And so they have a creative art conference there every year and not a lot of people know about it and I only recently discovered it and it's so cool. So anyways, it's something. If people haven't heard about this conference, you need to go and you'll be filled up. And it's just. It's really doing. Looking at arts and it's. It's a broad range of different arts. You know, it could be music, it could be film, it could be beetle pinning, you know, like, just different crafts and like invocations and things in the arts writing. It's really cool. Anyway, so where was I going with that? I was going somewhere with that before I mentioned that. Something about your film. Oh, yeah. It was the people being affected by it. So I was talking to a brother as I was at Hutchmut, and. [01:13:38] Speaker C: He. [01:13:39] Speaker B: He had said kind of what you were saying, but he said. Said something that C S Lewis had said. Again, these kind of scrambled quotes. [01:13:48] Speaker A: You. [01:13:48] Speaker B: We have an Internet, you can go find it. But I think he had mentioned something about his work being not overtly Christian, but deeply Christian, and that that work would be sort of the precursor. Pre salvation pricks. [01:14:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:10] Speaker B: To someone's soul that helps them become more open to receive the gospel. And I thought, that's good. I like that. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:17] Speaker B: Because this isn't the gospel, but there is something that it does to soften people's hearts. [01:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:22] Speaker B: And it's things that they can't even articulate. Like. And for example, we had people who, you know, we would often share the film right before lunchtime. And, you know, and then we would go on during lunch because it was our free time, and we would then talk through the thing, the little things that we would need to have them do. And there was a few cases. There's one particular case where one of the artists had come on and they were bawling and we were like, oh, my gosh, did something happen? You know, like, I didn't even think it was because of the film. And this was storyboard version. And. And they were like, oh, my goodness, I'm so surprised that you were able to pack that much emotion in such a short amount of time. And this was so moving. And they had never opened up a Bible or been to church before. And so. And they were kind of like, how did this happen? You know? Yeah. And it was like, well, let me tell you why. I think. I think that, you know, we are eternal beings and that, you know, God has written eternity on the hearts of man and mankind. And. And so I think that's why it pricked you in a way. And that. Let me tell you about the. The. This parable that Jesus tells. And let me tell you about what we believe. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's. That's what it can do, is that it pricks them in a way. They go, I know this is true. I don't know why, but I know this is true. And really, it's the devil who has told us that it's not true. Right. And I think that when you hear a story, even if you think it's a bedtime story or it's not or it's fictional, there's an element that you go, oh, no, no, that is true. And I think that's what great storytelling can do. It can start to convince people that the story is true. Yeah, actually, I would. I mean, Brian McDonald, I love him as a. He's such a great storyteller. And he wrote a book called Invisible Ink. You should check that out too, if you're, you know, aspiring filmmaker, storyteller. But he had done a lot of stuff with consulting for Pixar and Disney and all the major studios, and. And his book Invisible Inc. Has been a huge help to big directors and including us. And anyways, he would talk about stories being survival information. And I like that because when you look at the Bible, the Bible has the most vital survival information is the. For your soul for eternity. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:05] Speaker B: You can argue that that is the most important survival information that you will find in those stories, for sure. You know, the historical stories of what and the story that leads to Christ. So every story has some sort of survival information to convey. And just, I know time is failing us right now, but just by way of proving this, he would say that we. We tell stories to survive. And I think he sort of painted in a way of. Sort of evolutionary. So I don't know where he stands with the Lord, of course, but I think, you know, I would look at it from a creation lens. [01:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:45] Speaker B: But I think it still works. But so from his perspective, he's like, in order for humanity to flourish, we. We share information and we don't even know we're doing it. We're just hardwired this way. We are all storytellers, essentially. [01:17:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:58] Speaker B: And he gives this story of a new kid to the neighborhood, coming to a sledding hill, and it's winter. You know, they're got this deep hill and there's a little telephone pole at the bottom. And one of the kids warns the other kid and says, hey, be careful about the telephone pole. 1. You know, once upon a time, basically one time, there was a kid who was sledding down here, hit his head or, you know, hit the pole, hit his head on the ice, got up, felt a little woozy, but didn't go to the doctor. And then he didn't wake up. He died from a concussion. So if you, you know, if you do hit that, make sure you go to the doctor. So. And his whole point is that it's a cyclical. That's a story, a proposal, argument, conclusion. And oftentimes arises at the beginning, Right. Sort of that hero's journey kind of thing where you're saying, like, I'm going to tell you. It's a proposal argument, conclusion. I'm going to tell you what, I'm going to tell you in your intro first act. I'm going to tell you in your second act, and I'm going to tell you what I told you in the third act is, you know, that conclusion. And so his whole point is that we do that all the time. Yeah, we're in. We're. We're storytellers. Right. And. And so when you hear a true story and that actually has survival information. Sorry, that's the point of that whole story, is that he's trying to help that kid to survive. And so our film, and I would argue every film, should have some, you know, theme that is trying to say a thing that is survival information. And what we're trying to say, our survival information, is that it is that you need Christ. Right. You need a savior is probably the more generic way of saying that you need a savior. Yeah. That we are all that bare. So. But that's, but that is some. That's sort of the, the. The test that you're going to have to look at your own creative work and say, what am I trying to say with this? And it doesn't have to be film even, Right. Like, this could just be anything. Any art venture, I think, should have a pov. It should have a thing. You're trying to say, that proposition, that is not just love, Right. Because love isn't a proposition. It is a word. It brings flowery feelings, maybe to the surface, but it's not a proposition. It has to be, like, it's better to have loved than lost than to have never loved at all. Okay. That's a proposition. [01:20:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:38] Speaker B: Now prove it to me in a film, right? [01:20:41] Speaker A: Totally. [01:20:42] Speaker B: Ours is no greater love. Has anyone than this than one lay down his life for his friend? Okay. Prove that to me. Yeah. You know, so anyways, I mean, we can go on and on about it, but I think. Yeah. How did we get to talking about that? [01:20:56] Speaker A: Just within stories and the power of it. C.S. lewis, like. [01:20:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, C.S. [01:20:59] Speaker A: Lewis. I think in a nutshell, you could say he could. Couldn't rectify why these stories meant so much to him that he was reading and that's. He couldn't handle it. There had to be something else going on for css, you know? [01:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah. We're talking about the. That's right. [01:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [01:21:14] Speaker B: We're coming full circle. [01:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Man, this has been so good. I. I feel like I could talk to you forever. [01:21:19] Speaker B: Well, we should do another one one day. [01:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do it. Let's do. We'll. We'll set it up and we'll have. [01:21:24] Speaker B: Jeremy come back where he can stay the whole time. [01:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Can I pray? Pray for you real quick and close this out? [01:21:30] Speaker B: I would love that. Thank you. [01:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Lord, I thank you for Nathan. I thank you for your clear hands upon him and Jeremy. Lord, I just pray that you would bless this time, Lord, that he could just, in the season of whatever you have for him, could rest well, lighten his family well, Lord, I pray for laughs and fun and whether it be playing Legos or going out, whatever it is, Lord, I just pray that you would bless their family time together and continue to strengthen that like you already have. And I pray that even as you bring in stories are on his heart to tell, Lord, that you would just make it so clear, Lord, you would lead him and guide him and that he could just take it the next step in front of him, Lord, and it wouldn't have to be some master strategy plan that he has to try to work out and be ingenious, Lord, that it would just be your next step, Lord. Just that micro obedience, Lord, would just bring him to what you have for him like you already have, Lord. And I just pray against any attack from the enemy, Lord, that you would just say, be gone in the name of Jesus, Lord, and just cover him in your blood. Father, we thank you that the work he's doing and the light he's been, Lord, and just continue to bring these opportunities to shine light on you, Lord. And I pray that he could in this time, just. Yeah, just breathe deeply. Enjoy his family, Lord, and just rest in you, Lord. And just bless him. Bless his marriage. In Jesus name, Amen. [01:22:56] Speaker B: Amen. Thank you so much, brother. Appreciate it. [01:22:58] Speaker A: Of course. Man, this is. This has been awesome. Loved it.