Ethan Nathaniel | Singer/Songwriter

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with North Carolina singer songwriter Ethan Nathaniel. He plays multiple instruments. He's known for this kind of beautiful, often meditative music. You know, he's compared to Bon Iver or Gregory Allen Issachoff, but he's definitely in his own lane. You know, I was just on a project in New York and I was walking through the city and the subway and just kind of like chaos. And I felt like I was listening to his music in my headphones and there was this kind of beautiful bringing order to chaos that I think is great. And I just highly recommend, like, go for an evening walk and just listen to some of his music. I feel like if you kind of give the music space, it sort of like, gives back to you in a way, if that makes sense. We talk about how at a young age, experiencing loss, struggle and grief and kind of how God sort of met him in that and sort of through music in a way. I just really enjoyed chatting with him. You know, he doesn't know me at all, you know, when we jump on this call. So I just feel like he was generous, vulnerable and real. So, yeah, if you want to listen to a few of his songs before this conversation, there's like, a few I'd recommend. So. I mean, there's so many great ones, but just ones I like a lot. But there's a song called Cross My Heart or Too Far Gone, the strings version I love. But Heaven's Field is a great one. It's actually based upon, like, a dream. He had a dream. I really feel like that the Lord gave him. So without further ado, let's talk art and faith with Ethan. Nathaniel, the first time God felt real to you. [00:01:29] Speaker B: I was looking at this question today, actually, and realized that Today is the 15 year anniversary of my dad going into a surgery when I was in eighth grade. A brain surgery. And this is a huge part of my story about, like, finding God. Before I say that, I'll say, like you, I grew up in a very Christian household. My both of my parents were on staff with. I don't know if you've heard of crew. We call it Campus Crusade or Christ. Yeah, changed the name, but yeah, very conservative household. And like, we went to church all the time. But so all my life, my dad had suffered from epilepsy, so I had a couple of faint memories, like, now that I'm adult, just reminding myself of, like, my childhood. And, like, my dad would take me to football practice every now and then when I was a kid. And I remember One day he was driving a, I think it was like a 1992 Lumina with a maroon interior. Great car, great car. Had a, had a seizure when I, when he was driving me, and I had to like, jump ahead and like steer the car. We were in the neighborhood, so we weren't going so fast. But that was kind of like the life we were used to as kids. I have two brothers and there were moments where things like that happened. Yeah, it was gearing up to this pinnacle moment where my dad was taking a bunch of struggling health wives and he had an opportunity to take a surgery where they were going to take the brain out, part of the brain that was triggering the seizures, which is a crazy thing back 15 years ago, but I guess now it's common surgery that they hear a lot. But yeah, November 10, 2010, you got that surgery. Got bacterial meningitis in the operating room. And you know, I don't know all the medical terms that happened to him because I was like, you know, a kid, but essentially fighting for his life for two years in the icu. Just a crazy hurricane of events that happened that year. And, you know, what happened the past two, three years, somewhere along that line, as a 12 year old, I would just, you know, in a way find myself trying to find meaning. And, you know, and 12's a hard age for such a. The emotional maturity of a 1212 year old boy is. It's not great. So I used to go in the hallway when I was, you know, when all of my brothers had left, and for the first time I would start like writing music and like just crying out in a musical way that probably sounded terrible. And that was like the first avenue where I felt like God was like. I don't know if it was me just singing out my pain, but it felt, felt like a path to healing. And it's kind of where I started writing music. But during that time, maybe my freshman sophomore year, I really started to dive deep into the Bible for the first time and just in a real way for the first time, like leaning into God and to Jesus and to praying to him. And it's almost not like I had this encounter with God where he felt real. It was almost that I needed him for the first time where I realized my need for God for the first time. And looking back, I feel just. I feel just so much peace where I feel like the Lord really did meet me there as a kid. And I feel to this day, like marked by that. But yeah, that's a little bit about finding I Think finding Jesus in a real way for the first time. But it's also a story about me finding, like, music in a real way. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:12] Speaker B: During that same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker A: I heard someone say, like, to need God desperately is so often to know him desperately. You know, it's like to. It's in. In that need that we often know him in a new way. So you felt like kind of. He kind of met you in the, like the lament and in the music and like, I don't put words in your mouth, but like, in a way that almost using the music to bring peace and comfort. And it makes me think of like, blessed are those who mourn because they will be comforted. But. Yeah. You felt he kind of met you in that time. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think there was a door that was open to me that I didn't know was there where I could just. Yeah. Lament and find some sort of meaning by creating. And also, like, looking back as an adult, I had so much support that I would not be here in the same sense without that support. I had, you know, just a host of like, really godly men, like, basically interject themselves into my life without me really being aware of it as a kid at the time. But there was like six to seven godly men that just kind of stayed adjacent to me during my middle school and high school years. I. I later found out that I got braces from this orthodontist because he heard what was going on with my dad and he talked to my head of school and he gave me braces for free. You know, we were kind of a poor, like, so that was a big deal. Just things like that. Yeah, the. The. The year I. My dad went for the surgery, I was homeschooled prior, and I think it was a month before the school year started. This small private school reached out to my family and was like, hey, we want to. This is super last minute, but we want to give your son a scholarship to go to this school. And then two months later, my dad would be admitted into the icu. So there's so much timing, things that happened that I didn't pick up during that time. But there's just so many faithful moments that God provided for me during that time, which I think is really special. But, yeah, I really gravitate towards the book of James, as you may know, like, talking a lot about taking joy and having joy amidst trial and hardship. And that was a new idea for me at the time as a kid. Yeah. Realizing. Yeah, it's such a Backwards thought. If you really think about it for the first time for someone who's actually in anguish and, you know, the idea that you must be joy, did it. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Offend you at all, like, in that moment, or was it a lifeline? You know, like the first time you're in pain and then you see take, you know, considered pure joy. I'm just curious. Like, there are times when I can hear. Hear that and really receive it. And there are other times that can be a hard thing to hear as. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Well, you know, so that's the funny thing. I was actually very angry. Yeah, I was. I remember I wasn't maybe angry, like, growing things, but, like, I was irritated by that verse. I remember meeting with one of the men that was kind of mentoring me indirectly, and me just talking about how annoying this passage was and. Yeah, I just remember how I did not feel peace reading James for the first time. Yeah, it's. But it did spark a intense interest and a curiosity and a, you know, pursuit of what. What it actually meant. And I don't think I would have truly grasped it or understood it if it wasn't for he was my teacher. Yeah. So, yeah. Hopefully that's a more honest view of my experience. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:33] Speaker A: No, I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It seems like it was like a seed that was planted. And maybe because you had people around you who could talk about it some, it wasn't just like, I'm just getting rid of all this. It was like, okay, maybe I'll understand this at some point. That's interesting to hear. Like, the fact that you brought it up now makes me think, okay, clearly it stuck with you and kind of came to fruition in some way. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm looking. I'm looking 15 years on from a traumatic moment in my life that's changed my life. I'm seeing the fruit of what perseverance is. I also am seeing the fruit of my life of, like, recognizing that without that pivotal moment in my. My family's life, I don't know if I would be broken enough to know that I need Christ at that moment. I don't know if I would be, for a lack of a better term, like a Christian. If I was just raised in this cultural environment, especially I live in North Carolina. It's a very cultural Christianity, you know, culture where everybody's going to church, everybody's doing the thing. [00:12:00] Speaker A: It's like, I'm an American. I'm a Christian. I was just born this way. [00:12:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So to be honest, I'm looking back and I'm like, wow, like, this was such a hard time, but without it, I would be so different. [00:12:16] Speaker A: The hindsight was where that scripture feels true, you know, as you look back on it. That makes sense. Yeah. [00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have this. I've had this thought before, and maybe it's not coming from my dad per se, but I'm a father now. Two kids, what ages? Two and a half and four months. Yeah. [00:12:38] Speaker A: So I have a 10 year old and a six year old. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Oh, awesome. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Boys And I interrupted. [00:12:43] Speaker B: No, no. What's that? Boys or girls? [00:12:45] Speaker A: Two boys. [00:12:46] Speaker B: I have two boys, too. Boy. Dad with us. [00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:50] Speaker B: So funny. [00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah. You might hear them in the background. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I level. Yeah, it's. It's kind of a. It's a hard thing I've wrestled with, but I'm like, if my dad. I know. So he. He loves God and, like, still has this sweetness about him. So I'm jumping everywhere. But he. He's still alive, but he's lived in the nursing home ever since and he can't walk. He has pretty heavy disabilities, physically and cognitively, so sometimes he won't know who I am, but sometimes he does. And sometimes we talk about football and fishing. Right. But sometimes I think if my dad knew the fruit maybe of what this hard situation were to entail, like, I know that he would go through it so his sons could, in a simple word, like meet God in a real way, which. That sounds kind of weird, maybe. [00:13:52] Speaker A: No, I get. As a dad. [00:13:53] Speaker B: You get it. You know, then you're. You're saying, well, did God impose this on us? I actually think it's more of like, it happened and God is with us through it versus, you know, the question, why did God do this to us? Right. It's not that. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Hopefully I'm not getting confusing in that. [00:14:17] Speaker A: No, they're not. I'm tracking with you. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think about that. I'm like, as a father now, would I go through something personally so that my sons could know God in a real way? I think I would. Which is a hard, hard thing to kind of wrestle with. But it's been brought up just by navigating life as I grow older. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. Thank you for sharing that too. That's actually, honestly, that's a, like the God's will versus God's sovereignty and, like, are two different things. And that's something that I wrestled with a lot and talked through a lot. You know, the Bible says it's God's will That everybody be saved. And then we also know the Bible also says not everybody will be. And so it's clear that God's will is not always that place, but his sovereignty is. You know, that's, that could be a struggle. But I wanted to ask you, how does this come in? You know, really sounds like coming from a place of like the pain sort of forces you not only to like look for God, but kind of look for truth and look for what matters. How does this kind of like affect as you're starting to write in music? Like, how does this kind of bleed in into your, into your music? Is there. Do you feel like it's. It's still in your music to this day? [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I think kind of brought me to a place that, like I said, kind of in that hallway in my family old, I would just start writing and not even writing in the traditional music sense, but I would just get my guitar and start singing whatever. [00:15:53] Speaker A: I. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Fell and kind of channeling like, for lack of a better word, like anger, angst, all of this pent up emotion in my voice and trying to sing from that place. And I still feel like I write from that now and sing from that now. I don't necessarily know another way, I don't think to do that in the sense that when I try to write a song, I want be able to sing it from my heart, sing it from my, my belly. Like, yeah, I wanted to leave it. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:33] Speaker B: And sometimes that's me being inspired by something I've been through and I'm singing it from a very real place. Sometimes. I've written songs that are stories that I've thought up that aren't necessarily directly real, but real in the sense that people go through them. And you know, as a, you know. [00:16:57] Speaker A: I do filmmaking and it's like the stories are not like a documentary on my life, but they're very much coming from real places. You know what I mean? It's like, I think people get that when it comes to filmmaking. Like, oh yeah, not every. There's stories that can be very personal even if the main character is a different person. You know, it's always felt like it makes sense for sure if that would be in music as well. Sometimes to me, it's like when you're younger, you're kind of surprised to hear that not every song is like, you know, a biography. But it's totally. It's true in another way, you know? [00:17:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Do you feel like the Holy Spirit is like a part of the writing process? Or have you seen that or. Yeah, tell me about your thoughts. [00:17:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's. There's mystery in that. I mean, there's just. There's a lot of mystery in how the song comes to fruition or like, helps to me, but for any artist. But I think it all starts from the point of being open. And there's been plenty of moments where I've been stuck on a song and I've been like. Or help me find a song. For me, I feel like it's finding a song, like uncovering a song versus creating it. So I. I feel in the sense that the Holy Spirit is our helper. I feel all the time being like, lord, help me with this. Or what is that? [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Waiting and sitting and trying to listen. I found that that posture when I'm writing didn't need the ability to, like, find a lot of songs and write a lot of songs. Yeah, I think you get better at listening as you write. With you there. Yeah, that's been my experience. Hopefully that answers your question. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I mean, with other people's projects, if I'm producing and I'm stuck, I feel the urge to say, like, fluid health. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker B: And yeah, I think I navigate that in other areas of my life as well. Of course. But in the musical stance, I definitely do that. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. That's cool. I know Quincy Jones is always like, always leave the door open for God. You know, the idea of like being open and like trying to have an ear to listen, but also still, you know, moving forward versus just like waiting. I. I feel like in your music there's like you're saying, I feel like there's this honesty to it. I'm using film turns, film terms here. But like, faith based is a term for films that generally is not. Means the quality is going to be low, at least in the film space. And your music is. Is not the negative side of what that is, but your faith spills into what you're doing. But I'd be curious to hear from you what you feel like stands in the way of some of like the faith based art we see. [00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I. This is just me talking, right? [00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:19] Speaker B: And this is just my thought. So I just wanted to disclaim that, you know, I'm not totally my microphone and saying this is the way, but to me, yeah, my conviction on this is some of the messaging I hear is with artists and songwriters is saying, hey, guys, we are Christians, so we must use our gifts and talents to make art for God or fill the earth with Jesus entered music specifically, right. Saying. And I think it sounds good, Right. But my struggle with that is that I think when God calls us to fill the earth, right, he's saying, fill the earth with beauty. It's not filling the earth with more Christian art. I think when you sometimes when you start a song with a box of saying, this is where we need to go direction wise, you're just. You're naturally going to cut off some. Something because you are putting it in a box a little bit. Right? Yeah, yeah. And especially, like with algorithms and things like this. I mean, as you know, like, there are kind of things that we want to align ourselves with as far as, like, messaging. So I think. I think that is a big obstacle standing in the way of Christians who are artists making beautiful things. I just don't think it needs to be inherently Christian in the way that if I believe that God is in everything in my life and I'm working and living out my faith as a Christian, God is in my relationships. God is in my marriage. I think singing a song about my wife or writing a love song about my wife, just for an example, is worship. Yeah, it can be worship. It's worshipful. So I just think we are called to make beauty. I think that's what I feel called to. Yeah. In the musical sense, too, but also as a songwriter of just going for beauty, that's objectively great, you know, and the best way I can try and to attempt that. Right. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Not saying my music's great, but saying my ambition to try to achieve something great is an important thing to. To do. So. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:01] Speaker B: And I think that transfers to other things like film and storytelling and all of our work. That's just. That's just even stuff. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's good. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker A: I. I relate to that. I also like that you talk about what you feel called to. You know, anytime anybody makes something and finishes it and put it out, I'm like, that's a win. That's good, you know, But I think to your point, like, what I felt called to is stories that maybe go into darker spaces, but also I think it's. If you really want to show light, you contrast with dark first, you know, and. And not that every. Even like the Bible itself, there's also just lamenting, you know, and. But I do feel like your emphasis on the call to beauty, like, it's all throughout the Bible too. My life was changed by God, and I was a filmmaker, and it was an idol of mine that I was, like, putting above everything else and now I was like, never again. And then I felt like God was bringing it back to me. I'm like, okay, I'm going to wr something that glorifies God. And I like write something with that end goal of like addressing God, talking about God. And then I finish writing it and I'm just good enough at what I do to be like, even prayer, like this isn't very good. Like this is pretty bad, you know, like just if it feels the least authentic thing I've done, you know. And I remember praying about it and I felt like, I felt like I was like, instead of writing about me, how about you try writing with me? And it's the idea of like bringing him into the process and not being like, I know my end goal of what I want people to think and feel, but more just being like writing what moves my heart as someone who's chasing after him and whether that, whatever that looks like. And I felt like that's the project I just finished is going out is that. And for a long time I was like, I don't see how this brings any glory to God when I was writing it. And then as time went on and during the notes process I'm like, oh, started shaping into something. And not that there's definitely not a call to faith in it, but I do feel like there is, there's something there on a spiritual side. All that to say I feel like the irony with faith based is that sometimes I think we're removing the act of faith ourselves, of like having faith while we write by being like, oh, it has to be this and has to say this thing has to he. I'm sure you've heard the term. I think they call it like JPMs. Jesus's per minute in the Christian music. Okay, maybe, maybe it was, it's like obviously a joke. But it was very popular in the 90s. But it was kind of this like a lot of these Christian artists who are like getting kind of like tired of. Of Christian radio stuff. Like oh yeah, my jpms were too low so I couldn't, they wouldn't play it. [00:25:34] Speaker B: But oh well, I'll just say like I think there's obviously such a value and a benefit to music that is, you know, CCM or you know. Yeah, I'm saying this, I'm a very much more of an N word, soft spoken person both internally and externally. Right. And that kind of flows into. What I've realized is I would be in a worship setting and it's like this big anthem worship right and everybody's raising their hands, even, you know, in high school or something. And at the time I was like, oh, man. I guess I'm just not feeling God right now. I've realized everybody responds differently. And I respond in worship to. Instead of jumping around, I'm probably going to sit down and journal. It's just kind of realizing, like, our lanes are so much different. So I think when I think about writing music, maybe instead of Ethan singing an anthem that probably wouldn't be in line with my heart, I think being in line with my heart is maybe singing more meditative songs and songs that maybe talk more about hardship and that side of life. Right. It's kind of where I feel led to. So what I'm saying is we need both. Of course. I think the popular music is probably more in the feel good space. And I would love to see more of the other side, More in the limelight. Of course. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting hearing you say that. So just literally on the subway in New York and I was listening to your song Too Far Gone, the strings version, and it just felt like. It's hard to describe, you know, how art makes you feel. Right. But it just felt to me it's not like an anthem. It's not like this big thing, but it felt like you could just see this chaotic environment of New York. And I felt like the song itself sort of brought this, like, order to chaos that was happening around me. Like, it all kind of, like, was meaningful and made sense in a beautiful way. And I just felt a sense of gratitude to be there, you know, And I was. It was just when you talk about being more inward and it not being an anthem, I feel like that's almost like that's the fruit of that for me as someone who gets to listen, you know, it creates something. Like it makes little things sacred, in a way, is how I describe it. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing that. [00:28:09] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:28:11] Speaker B: New York is there. I was gonna say New York is a beautiful space, but also is a lot as well. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Is there a song or two that jumps out to you that you're like, I'm proud of how this came together. Like, oh, these are one or two that are special to me. [00:28:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I have songs musically, I love. I love all of. Of course. I always love all my new songs. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. I do have a song, one of my older songs that has become something. I've, like, kind of become wiser the longer it's been out. And the Longer I've been. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Living life. I'm like, oh, this has more meaning than I thought when I wrote this song. So it's a song called Heaven's Field. It's one of the first songs I wrote. And the story about is kind of funny, but I was 21, and I decided I wanted to go to France and do a workaway. Have you ever heard of what a workaway is? [00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:24] Speaker B: So I found this, like, French kind of, like, estate. And so her dad was, like, a famous French painter, and she inherited this kind of old French house with, like, a lot of acreage. And it was kind of run down a little bit, but it was really beautiful. And so when I was 21, I borrowed my friend's banjo case and brought my banjo, put my clothes and, like, the banjo hole, because it was an open banjo, and went to France, Southern France. Found my way there. Didn't speak French, which you should definitely learn, or you go to southern France. Because no one. No one speaks English in southern France in my experience. I mean, a few did, but. So I would, like, chop wood for three hours a day and then go hang out in, like, the village and, you know, have some cheese and bread, some wine, you know. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Sound sounds. [00:30:28] Speaker B: It really does. It really does. I mean, even now, I'm like, that was a good trip. One night I had this really vivid. And you. You obviously now know more about my dad, but I was running in a field with my dad, and he had a. Like, a restored body. And I just remember I have always been the person that never gets dreams. I don't know if you've known any friends or even spiritual friends in your church, and God speaks to them through dreams. And you're like, that sounds really awesome. Yeah, I. I'd never been that person, but I just felt super inspired by this dream green. I wrote it there and finished it on my banjo. And some of the lyrics are kind of like talking about hearing a father's call in the middle of the night to chase the lyrics or to chase me. Right? [00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:27] Speaker B: So at the time, I was thinking, this is a story about me and my dad. And as I've grown older, I've realized what the true story is. Is about God the Father, calling us to run with him. And. Been a really interesting journey as I grow older and become a father. Because now I'm in the other position in the story. Right. So for years, I've been the son with my dad, and now I'm the father calling my sons who aren't with Me? [00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:03] Speaker B: There's still a lot of mystery. I don't really understand what I'm saying, if that makes sense. But as the years have gone, I've just realized, what does it mean for God to ask me to run with them and play with them and playing with my young kids and, like, the joy I have running and playing with them. Like, it feels like there's a well in me that's. That's getting deeper. Just in the sense that, like. Like, wow, God enjoys us. That song, obviously, from a production standpoint, I'm like, oh, it could be better, Ethan. But the message of that song, I realized, was. Was a gift to me. And I've been like. I think about that song a lot, but beautiful. Yeah. I. I love the fact that if you, like, go on Spotify, the actual artwork is the house I stayed at in France. But I would say that's the most special song to me because it's. Yeah, it's with my dad, and. But it's also, like, a greater spiritual message that I'm still uncovering. I also love all the music I write too, you know? [00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Good. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. That's really beautiful. When you say, like, the fact that it's changed some over time, like, it hasn't lost what it was, but its meaning for you has also changed. And you even say that there's a mystery to it. I think there's something really interesting there about artwork and the way that God can get involved with it, that even though we write it, that we always are, like, the full authors, that we get full ownership of something. You know what I mean? I just did a screening, and people are like, well, what do you want people to take away from this? And I was like, I kind of hope that it's not all the same. I hope people have different answers for that. And not in, like, I want to be mysterious, but in that, like, it kind of means multiple things to me. You know what I mean? Like, it. It doesn't all mean the same thing. And I don't feel like I'm the only one making this enough that I'm like, you know, God is empowering me to make the world's grandest thing, you know? But I do think that the. I don't know. I think that it's not just, like, we own every bit of it. [00:34:25] Speaker B: I. [00:34:25] Speaker A: You know, I feel like art can change and form over time, you know, and it sounds like you. You feel similarly, that it's like, it's not just yours, and it's like close ended. This is what it means. Case close, you know. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. The more I create, I think the more I realize there is. There's a deep mystery with inspiration. It's not black and white. There's. There's this divine mystery to it, I think, where we're not responsible for the inspiration that comes to us, I think. And I definitely think it's God, like the Holy Spirit inspired and. Yeah. Speaking to us. And for me, music is a gift to me first, and I think a way that God has, like, spoken to me through music and song, and it's like the thing that it's closest to my heart. And I think I can get very logical and rational, and music is. Has always been straight to my soul. Yeah. So I really think God speaks to me through music. It's the most effective communication method for him to talk to me. And it makes me really grateful that, like, someone can listen to that song and, like, feel inspiration from them. So, yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, the more I just think, the more I realize they're not necessarily my songs, even though they are. But let's just call the viewpoint. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Man, I love that. I feel like I've been doing this podcast for a while, and I haven't heard someone bring up that. It's first a gift to me, you know, the music. I feel like that's the truth. I was talking to a pastor, and he's a great speaker. And I said, I think one of the most important things when you're preparing a sermon is it's. It's the sermon you need to hear. It's what. What is the Lord speaking to you for this? It's like, if you're just trying to write to what other people need to hear, what you think other people need to hear, or what you think, you know, it's. It's kind of tainted in a way. And I even felt like when you're looking at art, people that have a lot of problems with, like, certain films, you know, especially in the faith space, and they're like, well, I get what it's saying, but somebody else might think it's glorifying sin or it's, you know, And I think that things of. It's like a matter of the heart and the spirit, like, you. You need to receive it first from your own perspective, you know, And I feel like even what you're saying in the writing process, I feel like that's cool and kind of spills in and like, what you said about inspiration, do you feel like there are any patterns to the moments you get inspired. [00:37:10] Speaker B: I definitely think we. I mean, we have to make space to write. So the idea that like inspiration just comes and driving and I'm hit with an idea that does happen, actually. It happens in the car a lot. But I also feel I have had to kind of make it a practice to sit every day, hopefully. I mean, it's kind of hard for me to do that all the time with kids now, but I do stay consistent and maybe shift my day around sitting at the piano at least once a day. But yeah, I try to write every day, even if it's on a weekend, try to write. I sit down on my piano and I get my journal and I'll sing and just sing, kind of whatever. I'm usually more inspired by the music first. So I love music. Just like learning music. I'm learning some Philip Glass right now. A piano, it's just. It's fun. I love to challenge myself. So I definitely think there is a. A responsibility for the artist, the musician to pour in to like work on your craft. To work. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Right. So that's definitely been a testament to how I've been able to write many songs and like, but on the flip side of that, like, sometimes I'll write and I'm sure so many people have spoken of this and nothing comes from it. And three days later you're on a walk and you have the idea about that idea and you're like, yeah, thank you. So. Yeah, I think staying consistent is such a huge part in any creative world. Making space for it. Yeah. But there's also a mystery of something coming in your brain unexpectedly that is really cool as well. [00:39:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Making the space sort of opening up the sales a little bit to see. Be available to catch. Catch the wind. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Do you. Do you have any, like, spiritual practices that are. That you do part of your routine, whether it's like going to church or Bible or anything that has kind of become a regular part of your life? [00:39:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I have had some in the past that I have, like, I have to be honest, because having some children has completely thrown off. [00:39:44] Speaker A: I was gonna say you have a four month old, right? [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Yeah, like. Yeah. [00:39:49] Speaker B: I think if you'd asked me that like two years ago, I'd be like, yes, every day. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [00:39:58] Speaker B: But I. One that, that one that is currently in practice for sure is journaling and writing, writing things on paper for some reason, it's just been a way that I can actually fully understand myself for some reason. And that always leads Me into prayer, but prayer through writing. Yeah. And that's something I try to do in the mornings. But like I said, like, sometimes kids change that, but totally, I always feel like that grounds me to read my Bible, to pray. And then the second practice that is not in practice probably because of kids, but that I would really recommend people to do, including myself, is going on a run or a walk. If you don't run with nothing. Right. No music, just your breath. Yeah, but, but really just like going on a run. I used to go on runs all the time with, with no music, nothing. Try to make it a time where I just say, lord, Lord, Lord, speak to me or Lord, be, or be with me on this run. I don't know if you say this, but I'll just say like, lord, you know, here I am. Yeah, I'm just breath, prayer, running. Yeah, I'm running and I'm thinking about you and do that a lot. And it was just a special time. We just have so much in our heads with even social media that there's rarely any space for us to be quiet. Yeah, so that, that's a, that's something I did a lot of. And we'll try to do more after I say, say that on a podcast. [00:42:01] Speaker A: No, that's good. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Very good. [00:42:03] Speaker A: I connect deeply with both of those. The writing is one for me. Like, I'm like, if I just do it in journal form, so I feel like I can finish the thoughts and then be like, lord, is there anything you want to say? And then kind of just wait. So I just, I totally get that in the walks, but I remember I was thinking about when I had a four month old and a three and a half year old, four year old who's like Covid. And I'm someone who's always like, I was single for a while and I would like, you know, go into the woods and have a two hour time of solitude. And I would even practice just like nothing. No thoughts, nothing. You know, just trying to be available for the Lord. And so then having kids, I remember like, I'm like, I just gotta have like a 10 minute quiet time. And it was Covid and I couldn't leave to go anywhere. We didn't have any like grass. And so I was like hiding in the bathroom trying to like just read this devotional. And as there's like, the kids are like, and it's because they want to play with me, you know, And I remember just being so frustrated and being like, God, explain to me why you wouldn't Want to help me find some space to be with you and just really struggling in that. And that just legitimately is a struggle. But I do felt like the Lord is like, I'm gonna show you how to find me not just in solitude, but in chaos. Yeah. And this is a part of fatherhood and kind of like change the approach, you know, I felt like, for me, one thing I realized I could do is, like, I could on the TV, put on, like, a YouTube worship song, and then like, something that's a little more upbeat that the kids would, like, dance to, you know, and, like, I'm gonna worship and I'm gonna be distracted, but, like, it's still. They talk about worshiping a sacrifice. It's like I'm laying down a sacrifice to distilled worship despite the distraction and the kids. And, yeah, I'm not going to. Like, if the kids need something, I'm going to do that. But just to make that space. I felt like. I should say I felt like the Lord met me in that in a good way, but it also was like, a hard process, you know? So I feel for you, with two kids, four months, it's like, I know that it can be a lot. [00:44:06] Speaker B: It's a real thing, of course, but it's like. Yeah. I mean, I'm learning. I'm learning new things, is what you're saying. Like, new way. Yeah. About God through my kids that I wouldn't have found out without them, which is also really cool. But. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. High stimulation for sure. With. With. It's great. Yeah. [00:44:35] Speaker A: So I counter. I encounter a lot of believers. Maybe this is an LA thing. Like, people came here ambitiously. So now I feel like a lot of people in my church are like. I see this, like, apprehensiveness to being ambitious or a little bit of, like. And they at least want to keep it in check. And I'm just curious, like, as someone who is like, a believer and. But also feels called. Yeah. Something like, what's your relationship to ambition? Like, is that struggle? [00:45:01] Speaker B: It's interesting. I would say. I would say I'm a. I'm an ambitious person in the way of strive for the best in me. Right. I want to. I want to do my best, and I want to do things the best that can be done with what I've been given. Right. So I think ambition is a good thing. And, like, Christians should strive for things to be excellent. Right. I also feel that sometimes people's reluctance to being ambitious can be like someone trying to be too competitive or it can appear like over the top, like, I don't know. And maybe it's overpowering. I ultimately believe, like the most important things I do in the day are not work related. So for all the ambition I have at the end of the day, it's not important in the sense that if I'm not present with my wife or my kids or present with relationships, I need to be in check with my family that die supreme over my ambition. Yeah, run as fast as you can. Do the things, like do all the things you want to do and you should, you should have no reluctance to that. And I'm talking, when I say we, I'm really just talking about me. Like. Yeah, I think sometimes I have the tendency in the past to kind of take on the energy of a, of a group of friends to kind of fit in. Right. So my, my friends were very, they weren't doing much or they were ambitious. Like I would be fearful to share what I'm doing because I didn't want them to feel like I'm trying so. Trying so hard. Does that make sense? Totally. [00:47:10] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:47:10] Speaker B: And over the years I've realized I need to just be me and be, be comfortable, to appear, for a lack of a better word, strong or confident in what I'm doing. And that's actually a good thing. I think a lie that happens in your head that says you shouldn't be strong and comfortable and, and confident. I actually think, yeah, maybe people who haven't dealt with that maybe don't know what I'm talking about. But I guess I'm coming from a place of. I've been insecure in the past, what I'm doing, and now I'm kind of realizing like, oh, I do have dreams that I want to pursue and yeah, I am pursuing excellence. Why do. And I'm kind of doubling down on that. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I think, I think almost anyone who really tries to make art, I'm sure I can relate to that feeling of the. Yeah. Of being maybe a little insecure about wanting that stuff. There's something a little like mysterious about art at times. I like what you're saying a lot. I do, I feel like, similar to maybe this is like, you know, being a parent and seeing your own kids. It's like, yeah, I do think this is good to try hard. You know what I mean? Because you kind of see it in the small form with your own kids and you're like, oh, I want them to. Yeah, try your hardest. Learn. If it doesn't work, learn something, you know, and grow. No, that's not like your self worth isn't. And whether or not you check that box. But man, run, run the race to win. [00:48:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This is a little bit about me, but I, I love to go to the Y and play basketball, pick up basketball. I actually met someone who was at one of my shows playing basketball at the Y like a month ago and it was really fun. I view my life, my artist ambition life a little bit with basketball. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna play my hardest, I'm gonna try to win, but I'm not holding things too tightly. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like a process based goal versus a results outcome. [00:49:29] Speaker B: It's really just an internal pursuit of doing your best. Yeah. That's at least how I see it. Versus winning or succeeding. That can easily become a God in your life. [00:49:44] Speaker A: I think too. What I hear you saying too is like, you're like, I'm very ambitious, but it's also not the most important thing in my life. And to me what that points to. I feel like I keep bringing back on those Tim Keller sermon. But the idea of like you can have misordered loves or appropriately ordered loves, you know, so like if your career is at the top, it's gonna cause everything to crumble, you know, at least for the Christian, I believe this. But if it's like God and my wife and my kids and you know, or like finding that order is sort of like the importance with that in order, then you're kind of like free to like, you know, go. Go hard in a way. [00:50:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Cool. I know we're. I'm respectful at your time here, so I'll start to wrap it up. But is there anything you feel that maybe God is calling you to now or lately? [00:50:33] Speaker B: You know, I think it's a process of like always sifting through and praying like, what. What should I be doing? God, for me, sometimes I feel really called to obviously be like a great husband and a great father and a great friend with my work and like music like. Yeah. Just this feeling of bringing beauty back into the limelight has really been on my mind in the sense of I think about just musically like bringing back arrangements and bringing back orchestra. [00:51:15] Speaker A: You know. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Just like, just like excellent things. Like. Yeah, a dream of mine would be to. I've always said like in my 30s, I'm 28 now, but my dream has always been Ethan. Ethan does some orchestra shows. You know, there's arrangements and there's like, you know, things happening on that level. I just. I feel that that's maybe my North Star, musically, where I feel so propelled to. Yeah. Try to bring more excellent art into the world. I hate to say that in that terms, but that's just my vision. I'm like. I get excited and passionate about that because I think in the Christian space, there's been some. Some things traded in for quality, I feel like. And there's a lot of similar things just musically, in production and the sound is. I do think the sound is changing in some ways, but to me, I feel really propelled to dig in. In my heart and see, like, what is that in me that I know is in there that we can. We can write and hopefully, like, inspire people. So I feel to pursue beauty in my work. [00:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, great. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Like everyone else. But, yeah, maybe I'm over sharing or not sharing enough. I guess I'll know when I listen back to this podcast. [00:52:53] Speaker A: No, that sounds. I think, yeah. Hearing even that from like an orchestra standpoint of you and bringing that in is really cool to hear. Um, and I do think, man, more than ever, I'm like, oh, man, beauty is like a part of the call of, like, coming into the earth, subduing the earth. You know what I mean? Like, in the first time, God sends the Holy Spirit in the Bible, it's for an artist who is, like, working on the. I think the ark covenant or something. But it just. It's so clear. Oh, there's so many times God does things literally for beauty's sake, you know, and so I do feel like it's a very like. And, you know, maybe the cheesy term, but it's like in our dad's DNA, you know what I mean? Our spiritual DNA to. To make beauty. And it's. It is. It can absolutely be an act of worship. So. Yeah, I think that's cool. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Awesome, man. Last final little simple question. Any resources, books or habits, like, if someone feels called to create anything that you would recommend? [00:53:49] Speaker B: I would say you probably know this book, but the War of R. Yeah, it's a great book for the artist. [00:53:57] Speaker A: I have it right here. Yeah, I love it so much. I bought the hardback. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Yeah. If you haven't read the book, you should. Yeah. And that's been a great resource for me. I feel like I'm still learning. I feel like maybe I should be asking you this question, but you're making stuff. Yeah, I'm just still. I feel like I'm still learning and growing. And I think my. My big thing is as far as a music Thing goes. Is to not focus in on small nuances of recording your music and just, like, getting. Getting in there making stuff, not worrying about the type of gear you have. Not worrying about, I need this guitar, and then I'm gonna finish a song. [00:54:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:50] Speaker B: I would just say anyone to. Who's wanting to write music, like, just go in there, make a nest, and do it consistently, and you'll get more confident in what you're doing, and you'll make more music, and you also get better at it. I think that's a big stumbling block for people, is they just get kind of overwhelmed and on the technical side. Yeah. And then you realize, oh, I actually haven't done any music making. I've just been troubleshooting. So, yeah, I think that's what I would say. Just actually putting work in. So I think small goals are important too. So even if that's right. 15. [00:55:40] Speaker A: Yeah. As a music fan, I can say, like, as someone who doesn't write music, but absolutely loves it, I feel like there are times an artist will send me, like, a demo, like, literally, like something that's on their iPhone that they recorded at a piano, and I'm like, it's amazing. I have all the feels. Let's do it. And they're like, oh, no. This is just like the phone recording. I'm like, does it matter? It's still got all the feels. It doesn't make a difference for me. [00:56:02] Speaker B: You know, that's the thing. Like, the artist brain, like the musician brain, gets in the way. It's not your friend. It's not your friend. Because so many times I've written a song on a piano. That's what it should be. And then I overthink it. I'm like, well, it needs this to be compelling. Or this is boring. Sometimes it needs to be laid out in a simple way. [00:56:28] Speaker A: I love it. Dude, this has been so awesome. I really love getting to hear just. Even just. Yeah. God at work in your life and how that kind of affects. Yeah. The artwork and stuff. Can I kind of close us in a quick prayer? [00:56:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Love that. [00:56:43] Speaker A: Lord, I thank youk for Ethan. Lord, I pray that you would bless his relationship, his marriage, Lord, and his family. God. Lord, I pray that you would be the North Star in their life, everywhere they go. Lord, I pray. Yeah. That yout just deepen their relationships. Father, I pray that yout would empower him to lead well. Love well. I pray that you would parent him well as he seeks to parent well. Father. And I just pray for the music and the beauty, Lord, and the call you have in his life, God, I just pray you put your hand upon it. You would protect it, empower it, Lord. Bring glory to yourself through it, Lord. And I pray that there be no fear of man, whether it be from believers or non believers, Lord, I pray that he would put you, continue to put you at the center like he is, Lord, and just trust you in that process, Lord. Just bless them and keep them, Lord. And even just for like the financial blessings saying, Lord, I ask that over them, Lord, that they could continue to do this and continue to provide for them. Lord, I thank you for that. And I just pray, yeah, even just for that, the idea of touring with an orchestra and really beauty first, Lord, and kind of the quality over quantity, Lord, that he could put the time and the love into it. And I just pray that you would bless that as well, Lord Jesus name. Amen. [00:58:00] Speaker B: Great meaning. [00:58:01] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I really enjoyed this. I. I appreciate you being down. [00:58:05] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Awesome, man. All right, we'll be in touch. I appreciate it. [00:58:09] Speaker B: Thanks so much.