Nathan Presley | My Story | Yonder Studio Crossover

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey guys, I just want to take a quick moment to thank everyone who came out to the Uncommon Creators event. Everyone who said hi, I believe there are almost like 150 artists of faith that made it out there and it's in downtown la. And yeah, it was just an honor to be asked to be on the panel. Already excited for next year. But if you don't even know what I'm talking about, Google Uncommon Voices Collective. This is a really cool organization, nonprofit, just to see some of the stuff they're doing. Lots of great events throughout the year, but even when we were on the panel, I was like, man, there's so many good questions in here, you know, would love to go into more, but I see the timer going down. So if you have any more questions or topics you like to ask, just comment them on this episode, whether that's YouTube or Spotify. Or you can just DM me them on Instagram ethanpressley. But go through those questions, get a video out of it. Let's move on to today is a crossover episode I'm excited to do. Nathan Yoder is this crazy, talented illustrator, designer, artist. His clients are like Pepsi, Nike, rei, Converse, Random House. But he just also makes just a lot of beautiful art and like the very first impression I had of him, I was like, I didn't think human hands could make things like this. So definitely check out his work. But he also has this podcast called Yonder Studio. So he interviews visual artists of all kinds. So you guys can check it out on Spotify or Apple podcasts. But so this is him interviewing me. So this is a good episode to learn a little bit more about me and like my process and really some of my testimony as well. But Nathan Yoder is such a delight to talk to and you guys should definitely check out his work. So without further ado, let's dive in to this crossover episode of Art and Fate and Yonder Studio. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Yonder Studio podcast. My name is Nathan Yoder and today I'm joined by Nathan Presley. Nathan is a director, writer and cinematographer based in Los Angeles, California. His work spans music videos, award winning narrative films and commercial work as well for brands such as Sony, Nike and Tommy Hilfiger. More recently, he's also the host of the Art and Faith Podcast, a weekly podcast that, as the name implies, explores the topics of art and faith with other filmmakers, writers, musicians and artists in general. So, Nathan, welcome and thanks for coming. [00:02:20] Speaker A: On the podcast for having me, man. Excited to be here. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah. When I first reached out to You. Ever since then, I've been trying to remember when it was that I first kind of, I don't know, became aware of you. I think it was definitely back when I was still in Tulsa, but even so, I was trying to figure out like, what circle of friends was kind of throwing your name around because I don't think I actually finally met you until I moved to Costa Mesa. It was around like 2013. And so, yeah, it's been great now getting the chance to catch up again. I know a lot of time has passed since then. [00:03:01] Speaker A: I was just thinking the same thing. I was like, it's Costa Mesa, Orange County. I was like, it's been, it's been a while for sure. [00:03:06] Speaker B: You know, this will be just as much for me as it is for listeners. But I always like to start off by kind of digging into a guest's background. So if you'd be up for it, maybe you could talk a little bit about where you grew up and how you stumbled into filmmaking. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Rather not. I'm just kidding. No, happy to. Yeah. So, I mean, tell me if I'm going too long, but yeah, go for it. I grew up in a family of six in Oklahoma. And there's like two things that we would do together because there's like so many schedules and stuff. And there's two things and one would be like, go to church. We'd all load up in like this like 12 passenger van and go to church. And then the other one was like the occasional movie night. We didn't own it. Like tv. Like we had a television for a while. We would rent a TV from the video, the VHS rental place. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Nice. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Eventually we had a tv, but it was never connected. So it could only play movies, so which is way less time on television. But then when we all would come together and like watch a movie, especially as like the youngest, I was like, it felt magical. Like it's something that everybody there enjoyed and cared about, like from my dad to my mom to me to my siblings. And so there was something kind of magical about those two things. For me. It was clear that like, this is when the family is unified, you know, the most. And I was blessed with like a unified family, but those two things. And so that's kind of like I would say looking back, I was thinking about this. That's. I think that's pretty. A kind of like a seed planted. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:46] Speaker A: But then as like I'm also the youngest, so all my older siblings are like sort of choosing their career paths and there's like Doctors and scientists. And I'm like, I think at like age 7, I started praying, you know, for the Lord to show me what mine would be or what he was going to have me do. And yeah, and I think by like 10, I sort of felt like he actually, I shouldn't say sort of. I really did as a 10 year old. Felt like he told me. And I remember being in my driving with my dad on the highway, we were like passing academy sports and being like, dad, I think God told me, I think I know my calling. And he was like, oh, really? What's that? I was like, I think he's calling me to be a filmmaker. And it was just like silent in the car for a little while. And he was like, no, that's not it. And I was like, wait, no, that's what I feel at God. He's like. And it was kind of this like annoying pause. And then he was like, God may, God may use that in your life in a big way. He's like, but your calling is to like serve the Lord and to trust him and to know him and to delight in him. [00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:49] Speaker A: And then, you know, then he might use the filmmaking. And I remember being kind of annoyed and being like, well, I'll show him. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:05:58] Speaker A: But then what's cool is like that being said. He was also then very supportive. So we had this youth group of like sometimes like 300 kids coming every night. And we kind of our family sort of put it on with our friends. And so I started doing videos and he helped me kind of get started on that and you know, help me get editing software. And so I started like having this like weekly deadline to make videos for our youth group. And it was like, you know, it didn't have to be anything fancy or long, but it was like essentially it's like it's almost like having like a little mini newspaper where I like had to put out a product every week. Yeah. And in hindsight I think that was like a great training ground for like a 12 year old, you know. [00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:38] Speaker A: So anyway, but kind of jumping forward, I kind of just keep doing that and then you know, being like, I kind of have an entrepreneur mind and my dad kind of being like a pastor, farmer, Dr. Hybrid. I was sort of like, I got to do it all and figure out how to like make this a living, you know. And so yeah, kind of started doing local commercials in Oklahoma. And sometimes that meant like walking into a business and just like, you know, at like 14 maybe, just like trying to pitch them on a commercial and just keep lowering the price until they say yes, you know? [00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Probably more as a. They're being nice to me more than anything, but. But that kind of eventually turned into a career in Oklahoma and actually having real clients. And I kind of realized that why I was doing these local commercials. I was like, man, this is not. This is like not really even scratching an itch for like making movies, you know, or like something cinematic. And so I did find in Oklahoma that in fashion stuff, I was like, oh, wow. You can like actually like have cast it with a cool person and cool clothes and, you know. And so I started doing more fashion stuff and fashion photography. And so that was the first time I was like, okay, I feel like I'm like actually doing a little bit of the work I like to do and stuff started like from business standpoint kind of working, but then it was also like, I just can't imagine a world in where I get to make films here. And I was like, I couldn't even like, find people who wanted to act like, even my own friends. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:08] Speaker A: And so I was like, eventually I'm gonna have to move to la. And I should say that before this, I kept getting offers to do different projects and people didn't know my age. And I was offered to shoot in Africa on this document, but I was 16 and so I couldn't go because of school, which I kind of already hated school. And yeah, most of my teachers were football coaches, so. [00:08:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:34] Speaker A: But anyway, I essentially convinced my parents. They took some braid about it and convinced them to let me drop out of junior high. So I've never seen a day of high school in my life. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Wow. How did you. How did that conversation go? [00:08:48] Speaker A: I mean, it's really. To their. However you look at it, to their credit or I think they were just like, we have six kids, you know, the first three were valedictorians. Let's try some other stuff, you know. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah, we can spare one. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Yeah. But to my dad's credit, I think he really is sort of like an outside the box thinker and is like. He's like, honestly, I remember one time we were. I was like, so annoyed with the homework and he. My mom would help me do it. One time my dad was supposed to help me and he was like, honestly, none of this matters. Wow, perfect. [00:09:20] Speaker B: That's great. [00:09:21] Speaker A: But yeah, they prayed about it and yeah. So they felt like it was okay to do it. And, you know, I don't even. I'm not fully sure that's Legal, but that's my life. [00:09:32] Speaker B: It seems to have worked out for you. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. In hindsight, I feel super grateful. I feel like I got to get a big head, like maybe like a six year head start. Yeah. Like to be able to fail at a business for like five years and then move out of your parents house, you know, it's like a huge head start because it's like, oh yeah, you've. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Got the safety net. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Totally. You can, by the time you, you know, you move out, you actually might be making enough money to pay rent, you know. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's, that's incredible that they trusted you in that way, you know, to just take a leap and try something out like that. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I give them the credit for sure. And there was a time period when I was like, is this a mistake? And I really felt like I wasn't, you know, not that, you know, I'm a kid, so who knows? But like I wasn't like a reckless, wild kid generally. I was like, like I even had good grade, generally had good grades in school. Um, I wasn't like, I dropped out in the sense that it was just like failing, you know. But yeah, but yeah. So jumping forward, I decide to pack up my car with what can fit into it, move to California. And yeah. So like I honestly, to jump forward, I would say there's about four years of real struggle after that. And I think a big part of that was like, even though I felt like God had like led me to being this career path, I kind of in hindsight was like, okay, I'll take it from here. I'll make this happen at all costs. I'll work harder than anybody else all, you know. And I think I just kind of made this my like number one priority in life. And I think after about three or four years of doing that in LA and you know, Southern California, I just was so burned out. I was so lonely and isolated. Hadn't really made community and I knew I could like go make community places at churches. But to be honest, I think I was looking for community that would sort of help me on my career path or like, at least be like a cool, like I wanted like cool friends, you know? [00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:34] Speaker A: And I think in hindsight that was like a, that's not how, at least in the faith context, that's not really like you can't put that first in community. And if you do, you just end up never finding your community. And even the people that would be those people you don't find because it's like you're not really. You're kind of putting the cart before the horse. So. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, there are ulterior motives. [00:11:57] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the same thing with me. I think the career was great. God called me to it, but I think it became. It was just a bigger priority. And I end up, like, really struggling, you know, going into it on the dark side of it, like, you know, like, clinically depressed, you can't get out of bed, you know, and all these, like, micro online dating relationships that are like, you know, relationships is a generous word. You know, it's really more just like a. Just a kind of a hookup culture thing and just to try to not feel as lonely, but it's the wrong thing, you know, for everybody. And it just, yeah, really hit, you know, get some addictions along the. Along the way. It was just like I reached a point where I was like, I'm so miserable. And people, you know, and I had friends in my life that were like, well, you know, like, not to be this guy, but like, this stuff is like, what classical, like, sin in the Bible. This is like, the results of sin. And I'm like, well, I'm not even sure, like, that's the interpretation of what the Bible's saying. And I kind of, like, had these. Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a testimony, but it is. It is what it is. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker A: But I just was like, I kind of had these question marks on what the Bible meant or if I should be taking it literally. But essentially life just got so miserable. And I was like, I would happily clean toilets if it meant being more content. And it wasn't like, I, like, didn't believe in God anymore. I did. I just wasn't sure what I believed about, like, what's sin, what's not. And so anyway, I eventually hit rock bottom and was like, okay, God, I'm miserable. My way is not working. I was like, I'll. I'll just start taking. I guess I'm just going to take the Bible, like, literally, which means, like, even thinking a bad thought is a sin and it's something I need to, like, try to not do. And it means all these things are kind of, like, seem kind of harsh, but. But I'm just gonna take it literally because, like, I've had, like, years of pain. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:55] Speaker A: And I felt like as I started to do that, and I was like, I'm gonna fail at this. And I'm. I'm gonna fail at this in like, five minutes because, like, I being this depressed, I have like zero self control, zero motivation. But I felt like as I did, I would just be like, lord, I messed up. I need your help. I would just like, say that to myself all the time when it happened. And, and I think the cool part about taking it literally is if you take it literally, it also means that you're like, instantly forgiven when you ask for forgiveness, you know, and it also means that, like, you know, the Bible says the helper will come, the Holy Spirit will come and help you to do these things. And I felt like that was my story. And I felt like I was rescued from a pit, you know, And I was isolated and lonely and never. Zero success in any career stuff. I mean, enough to pay the bills, you know, Like, I had some stuff, but, like, it's almost. In some ways it was worse. Like, I almost felt like if I would have not been able to pay the bills, I would have, like, hit rock bottom sooner. But because I could just like, pay my bills with stuff, I was just kind of like living and wandering around downtown L. A from bar to bar, you know? [00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:05] Speaker A: So. But in that process, I felt like he just for sure rescued me. And then like, I had been praying for, like, a wife, a Christian wife, Christian community, and, you know, for meaningful work and this whole time. And then within, like, almost embarrassingly quick, I would say within like eight months, I, like, my eyes were opened to this, like, girl I was in love with most of my life, and I hadn't seen it. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:29] Speaker A: And then we, you know, jumping forward, we get married, we have a family, we have a community group that meets every Tuesday night. And we, we, you know, talk about our work and talk about faith and what God's doing in our lives and, you know, and the work stuff. Like, I really felt like. I do feel like I had to give up filmmaking as an idol, but I feel like in the past, like, five years, I felt like the Lord was like, okay, it's time to do this again. So, yeah, so anyway, that's kind of my process. I been blessed to, like, get to do, you know, like you said, the commercials for Nike and Fila and Montclair and Tommy Hilfiger. And, you know, I've been blessed to have a good commercial career and I feel like there's been more film stuff coming in. I've shot movies and produced movies and I just shot my own. My own short film just came out, going into festivals now. And. But man, my life is. Is very different and I Just feel very lucky and. Yeah, yeah, that's. [00:16:24] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:16:24] Speaker A: That's the. The 10 minute version or whatever. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's good. And there's so much in there. I. But I mean, you hitting on basically the general idea that we find in scripture, talking about having to essentially lose your life in order to find it, you know, because I can relate completely. I know you had brought it up with a few of your guests on your podcast, Art and Faith, but you know, CS Lewis talking about Disordered Loves or Tim Keller, I think he's talked about that and it's so true. I mean, what. When things are disordered, clearly things are dysfunctional. It's like you're just. It's. You're not happy, you're. You're burning out, things aren't going well. And when you can put things back in their proper place, it's crazy just how much easier life becomes, you know. [00:17:17] Speaker A: I do think there is. I think I had heard similar things when I was in the thick of it, and I was like, okay, I gotta lay down my career so I can get the career I want. But it was like a flawed perspective because I was like, okay, I'm laying it down, but really what I'm doing is I'm trying to manipulate the situation and so that God will bless my career. And so the laying down is like, I feel like there's no cheating it, you know, Like, I feel like you really have to be like, okay, I'm done with it. If you want me to be done. I'm completely done with it. I will never do this again if that's what you want. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Right? [00:17:51] Speaker A: And so it's like if God judges the heart and not our actions, you know, then it's like, oh, well, then it's different. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Oh, man, that's. That's the thing. It's. Yeah, it's full on surrender. Not. Not just, you know, pretending to surrender. It's like, yeah, like, truly, if I, If I had to walk away from art and from illustration, that's totally fine. Like, that's like the point that I had to get to is like, I'll do anything else, you know? [00:18:17] Speaker A: Totally. [00:18:20] Speaker B: You also, it seems you. You didn't study film. Is that right? Or you didn't, you know, you dropped out of high school. Did you study film or go to any kind of courses on art or writing or anything like that after high school? [00:18:36] Speaker A: I didn't know. I think maybe that was one of the perks of not being in high school or having that time And I think really, probably the first training ground, like I said, was making those weekly videos, but I didn't. A lot of it was trial and error. Like, YouTube wasn't helpful then yet, but it was like, forms where, like, you really had to dig for these answers for certain, like, technical problems. And then for a while, my older brother, we were playing around doing stuff for bands, and he knew Photoshop, and so I kind of was like. Would ask him a bunch of questions about Photoshop, but really it's trial and error, lots of Googling and then lots of like. I think our move, a great training ground is, if you're not in school, is just be like, I like this. Now let me see if I can replicate it, you know, and just tons of that, you know? [00:19:25] Speaker B: Right, right. Are you familiar with Braden Heath? He's a photographer. Have you run into him? [00:19:32] Speaker A: Sounds familiar. [00:19:36] Speaker B: He's an Oklahoma guy. He was in the photography department at the same time I was in the graphic design department at Oklahoma State University Institute of Technology. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. It was you. [00:19:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I had him on the podcast a few episodes back, and he was kind of hitting on. We were talking a little bit about what seems to be this kind of scrappy sort of drive of a lot of Oklahoman artists. I think I know. Just speaking for myself, you know, growing up in Oklahoma, also in a small town like, outside of Tulsa, I always felt this inferiority complex. Like, I need to. Like, all the exciting work is happening where I am not, and I need to work extra hard in order to break through and to get into some of those scenes, you know, and so I don't know, I wonder if that was some of what was driving you early on. [00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that definitely is a part of it for sure. I think it's also just like. Yeah, I think too, you get a little bit of a chip. I got a little bit of a. Not in a bad way, but a chip on my shoulder, I think, because it was like, the work was like. The work that paid well was like shooting photos for hospitals and oil and gas videos, which is like, the majority of the notes you hear is like, this is shot too dark or this looks too moody or, you know, and to be fair, they're right. It is. I was trying to do something else for them. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah. You know. Right. [00:21:07] Speaker A: But I think you, like, more and more, you're like, somehow that builds up a little bit of like, this chip on your shoulder where you're like, some. Somewhere somebody wants this, and I gotta go find out how to do it. And I gotta, you know, and I gotta be better. I gotta be better. That's how I need to convince them, you know, And. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker A: But I, yeah, I will say moving to LA was. That part was great in the sense of being like, oh, people actually do want this. Like here. My instincts are useful. The work, A lot of the work I was doing there, my instincts I had to fight against. You know, except for the fashion stuff, but, um, but so that's interesting. So you went to. Is that Kelly Kerr's class? Okay. Yeah, I actually, I think at like 19, I. I came in and spoke for a day on photography and film stuff at that class. Yeah, I remember it's like the first time I was invited to speak on something and I thought it was a Q and A, but it wasn't supposed to be. And so I was very unprepared. But it was. Oh, no. [00:22:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So maybe, maybe you could speak a little bit to your process. I know it might be kind of a broad question, but when it comes to filmmaking, and now it sounds like more writing as well. What's your approach? [00:22:24] Speaker A: Yeah, process to writing. I guess I kind of could break it down, but I think the like 1 minute answer to that was I spent my life trying to like do these like binges of writing and getting stuff done and I feel like it never worked. And I think that as I became married and with kids, I think I, I was like, I don't even know how to do this now because I don't have the time. And I felt like, really, I felt like the Lord was like, just give me like 20 minutes of faithfulness a day. And so, yeah, that say my process is a lot more like scheduling 20 minutes a day and then just making sure I press the buttons on the keyboard some and then forgetting about it and being like, okay, mission accomplished for today and moving forward with the other stuff because, you know, it's like all the filmmaking stuff and the writing stuff is sort of like, you could argue that it's absolutely. It's like going nowhere unless it turns into something, you know, it can feel like for sure. Working on faith because you're like, I have a family, I have bills, I have kids, like, I need to be a present dad, I need to run my business, you know, and so to do it can feel a little insane. [00:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Unless it turns into something. And then it's. Then you're like, okay, yeah, it was all part of a plan. But. But I think that for writing especially, I think it's 20 minutes a day. And writing is for sure like a battle I had to work through of like, like learning how to silence the inner critic. And like you can't create and evaluate at the same time. You have to choose one. And so just choosing, okay, I'm only creating today. I'm not going to like judge this in any way. Yeah. So for me that's, I would say my short answer to the writing, the filmmaking process is it's kind of similar, just chipping away until you finally get to a shoot day. But I feel like, yeah, it varies so much depending on what we're shooting. But I, you know, I think it's like trying to put everything through a lens of like, is this honest? Does it feel honest? And then, you know, yeah, I mean this is kind of broad but like between like making something entertaining but making it honest, it's kind of a lens I look through a lot, especially when I'm on set is like just kind of like the bullcrap meter just always keeping it up, you know, and being like, can I get away with this? If I add a song to this, will we believe it? You know? [00:24:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:56] Speaker A: So yeah, I think it's sort of like writing is like this. Like it's not storming a castle, it's watering a garden, going outside, watering the garden and going back to work. And then yeah, the filmmaking is, it varies so much depending on what we're doing. But I think it's, you know, I think even from casting to performances, it's like really just trying to put it through the lens of like, is this feel honest and is it making me feel something, you know? [00:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And as you've, as you've rubbed shoulders with more filmmakers and writers, you know, especially there in the LA area, would you say that your background and your kind of path to filmmaking has been kind of a, a net positive? Because I guess I imagine that kind of being primarily self taught. Have you realized there's kind of a structural difference in how you're getting from concept to final product? [00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I think that because of the process of having to learn to do different things. So I like learn to edit, learn to shoot, learn to light, learn to color. So all the stuff I can do, I try not to do it all if I can, because you can fatigue out on a project. But I think because of that it's been useful. It empowers me to like hit my target a little, a little sharper. I think that there is a whole, especially in Los Angeles, there's almost like these roles that are very like clear cut. So like a director, an editor, a cinematographer, a gaffer, you know, and they do it so you can like replace these roles and you know, like, so it can be a functional thing. If you own a factory, you can't like have one guy doing everything, you know, you need to like have people step in and it's good. And a big part of my growth has been learning to like use work with other people well and empower a team. But I will say I think what has helped a lot is more of this like overall perspective of hitting a target and just keep re pitching what it is. And so I can show color references to people. I can show you, you know, I can even. A big part of the success of my short film was making a treatment that it was like involved sound design and telling the story and imagery and all the stuff I learned in commercials. And so now I'm using Photoshop. I need to make this pitch document that is very like snazzy and has motion involved. And I think that document is the thing. Not only was it actually kind of fun to make, although time consuming, it's the reason why talented actors got on board. And so I think all that to say is that like learning the broad sense of skills and learning to do lots of things has definitely helped me in that sense. When it comes to the actual on set filmmaking, I think it's, I think it's helpful in the sense that like I feel like I could light something if I needed to light it myself, but I don't think that's the ideal scenario. I think really ideally you have a team you trust and work with and I feel like I've been lucky to have that lately. Yeah, yeah, that's my, my short answer or long medium answer. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Filmmaking has always been so interesting to me because it's one of, one of the few art forms that really is a team sport. You know, you can't, you can't make a film at all. I mean, unless you're just going out and shooting nature or something just by yourself. It's like you've, you've got to enlist all this talent and crew. And so there are all these variables at play. And you know, for to make something really great, you've got to have lots of great components and that's just so complex. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah, even just the like, let's say you have all these talented people and even just getting them all available to come on the same day is like that alone is Especially when you're talented, you're usually busy, you know. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker A: So it is. There's. There's a famous quote, something along the lines of, like, a painter needs a brush, a poet a pen, and a filmmaker needs an army. And I felt like I. You know, and I've tried to really actually have very small crews, and I like working with small crews, but even so, it's like, it adds up quick, you know? [00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:13] Speaker A: But I think that, yeah, there's been. There's. I had to, like, also, from a internal side, get better at communicating. I think I was sort of in the mindset of, like, either it's my project and I'll bring people on, or I'm like, it's a team project and I'll kind of let people do what they want, like having to. To guide the project, you know. I think it was a difficult thing for me where I was like, if someone wasn't doing what I wanted them to do, and I, like, gently said what I was thinking, and then they pushed back on it early on, I would really struggle of being like, I just need to do everything myself, you know? Yeah. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:50] Speaker A: So part of it's kind of learning how to grow up and have those conversations and communicate that. And I think that the trick there is to, like, have such a clear way of communicating what the vision is from day one. And you just keep communicating that, and then whenever the time comes, you can, like, remind them of what that is and what the goal is versus being like, well, I'm the director and this is what I want, you know? [00:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that, again, is. Gets at. What I find so fascinating about filmmaking is that you've got to be. You're. You're an artist, but you're also a. Like a project manager and like a. You have to, like, understand on some level, human psychology and how to get the best out of people. You know, it's like. It's. There's a lot there. Are there pieces of that that are difficult for you that you've had to, over time, like, improve yourself in, or has it all been exciting and interesting and, you know, since the beginning? [00:30:45] Speaker A: Totally. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, definitely don't love putting out fires on set. I do think I've done a lot of commercials, and I think that's also been. It's not the same, but there's a lot of good crossover training there. And I think ideally, the more you make stuff, the. I would say, in general, the more the right people kind of join the team, commercials. Because there's money involved, you get the right people on the team a lot quicker. So there are people there that are putting out fires. And you get to a point where they actually try to keep all of it a secret from you when you're the director, which is awesome because they just want you to focus on the goal. You know, filmmaking, it probably takes a little longer to get there. And I feel like I've had some good people help with that. But, yeah, I think one thing is very unnatural for me is communication. I think I've definitely had to push myself to communicate more and to, like, you know, walk into a room full of people. And, you know, I've learned, like, pretty much every shoot, you should just, like, walk out there to everybody and just, like, pitch what the commercial is. And then when there's new people coming on set, you should do it again. And I think that's a great way to start. It is. No matter what. Like, just, here's the target. Here's the target. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:06] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think communicating. There's times when you've, like, on commercials, I've had people that are, like, kind of, you know, you don't always know everyone you're going to work with, and people can be really difficult and are being rude. And so ideally, a producer on set can address that, but often that's not the case. So there's times just, like, pull people aside into a separate room and, you know, work through that. And I think, like, conflict is something that I really struggled with. Like, good conflict, not bad conflict. But I think being, ironically, being married has been one of the biggest gifts to, like, learning that conflict is, like, can be really good, and it can actually bring you closer to someone if it's done right. [00:32:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well. And as we're talking here, I'm realizing that I'm applying filmmaking probably a bit too broadly. So maybe you could speak to the distinction between filmmaking and then shooting a commercial. Like, how does your process differ from filmmaking to commercial work? [00:33:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that commercials, sometimes you come on and they're like, we want you for exactly what you do. We trust you. I find often a lot of, like, European clients are really like, oh, you're the director. Whatever you want to do. Which is so fun. But I would say the majority of. In the states, and there's some of that in the States, too. But the majority of what I find is more like, I kind of joke that I'm like. I'm sort of like a directing consultant. They're like, here's the creative and I'm like, okay, here's what, how I pitch to plus it up. Here's what can make it cooler, here's cool ways to shoot it. Here's here to kind of like make it special and, but ultimately like the buck stops with the client, you know, and that's totally fair. They're like paying a lot of money for this and. [00:33:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:57] Speaker A: But on, you know, film it's, it's really the director. Especially when it's kind of like your own project, I, you know, that you've sort of like self funded or like raised money for. And so that dynamic ends up making it very different. In some ways I feel like it goes faster because it's like when I know we have it, we just, we just move on. But yeah, so I think that commercials can be a lot of fun and sometimes you can be really proud of what you make and sometimes you can be like, I'm here to serve and you know, like I've, I added value. I not only did I make sure the shoot functionally worked, but I made it cooler and I made it more like appeal to their client base and I made it like something kind of unique or special about it. But at the end of the day like I did learn that like if you want to be like deeply creatively satisfied and you're, and you're trying to like make your clients do that for you, it can be a lose lose every once in a while it does line up. But also it can be like a, it's not really a fair ask of someone who's trying to help their business get seen, you know? [00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. So I guess then in that respect, you know, I probably know the answer to the question already, but would you say you thrive more in the category of filmmaking when it's self initiated, it's your own project from the very beginning, own story or when you're handed a brief, you know, for something like a commercial. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So I feel like filmmaking is like a marathon and commercials are like a short sprint. And so I actually feel like they complement each other really well. I think like to me they, you know, you can have something shot, you can work with the team, you can be on set, you can make something cool for a commercial and it's like done in a week or two and then a film can take like six months to a year from start to finish. And so I kind of love both like, I kind of love them as companions. I almost feel like they support each other really well, you can, like, help your. All your filmmaking crew to, you know, stay working on commercials. And so I kind of feel like they really go hand in hand for me. So, I mean, like, I really do love making commercials, but I would say creatively, the film stuff is, like, always. Always ends up like the commercials you do, and maybe about, like, you know, a few months later, you don't think about them a whole lot. I would say the film stuff really stays with you, and I feel like sometimes there's even more meaning. There's definitely more meaning and purpose and at least for the stuff that I want to make, you know. [00:36:37] Speaker B: So you've mentioned it a couple times, but maybe you could talk a bit about this film that you've put together. You said it's. It's in some festivals or it's slated to be soon. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So we created a film called Flesh and Blood. It's a short film, and it's a psychological thriller. And it's actually not a lot of people necessarily know this, but the title, Flesh and Blood, is actually based upon Ephesians 6:12. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against, like, spiritual principalities. So it definitely can play in any festival. Like, it just played at Screamfest, which is sort of like the Sundance of horror films. You know, a lot of bloody and gory stuff. It's not a bloody and gory film, but it is like a thriller, you know. [00:37:21] Speaker B: Okay. [00:37:22] Speaker A: But, yeah, so it's kind of a story that comes from lots of places, but one is, like, me and my wife's experience with therapy, and my mind was just kind of blown. How you can, like, go in for therapy in a room and everything's normal. And then as you're working through, like, this past trauma stuff, it feels like it's almost happening in the room now. Or like you feel scared in the room even though everything's fine. And so it's kind of like, take that idea and crank it up into, like, a movie, you know, into a thriller. And, like, so the film is not obviously a true story, but it's like, almost what it feels like. That's kind of the therapy side of it, but then there's also the spiritual side of it. I felt like only as time went on more and more, and some of the crazy stuff we've even experienced and seen, like, working within our community group and our church, it's like, man, there's just so much more going on that I'm aware of that I'm not aware of, you know, And So that's kind of the inspiration behind it. But, yeah, it's a 13 minute film and I feel like it's one of the. The More like, I would say a little bit more of like a debut for me. I've done other shorts, but some of those have been a little more like loosely scripted. This is like a very specifically scripted and casted and shot very meticulously and very strategically. But yeah, so. But that's been going. A lot of the festivals you hear back from are like in December and January. But everything we have submitted to that can get into now, it has. So it's. It played at Screamfest, at the Grumman's Chinese Theater. I believe it's playing at Dances With Films in New York. But yeah, it's been a really fun process and I feel, like, proud of what we made, which is so nice because there's one point on the project, I actually have a video diary when I've been editing it for a long time with the editor. And I almost just wrote this for myself, but I was like, yeah, it's just not very good. Like, it's like, it's meh, you know, and I'm so heartbroken that it's meh and kind of like praying through that. And I felt like the same thing I heard during the writing process and the whole thing was like, I felt like when I prayed about it, God was like, well, is there anything else to do on it? Are you done? And I'm like, well, there's some more I can do. You know, this timing should be a little better here. There's some steps I can keep taking on it. And I felt like I was like, okay, well, then keep doing that. Yeah. And through that process and through the notes process with the editor and through, you know, I felt like it just kept shaping and shaping. And, you know, all of a sudden I was like, wait a minute, this is good now. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah. You know. Yeah. [00:40:01] Speaker A: And so it's just an encouragement to anybody else who's like, making something, who's like, oh, it didn't turn out. Just keep taking the next step that, you know, to take, you know? [00:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's so true. I experience that so often. And the work that I do at, you know, different medium, of course, but, you know, you need to start with some good bones, you know, like a good concept. And you can't. You can't neglect that step. But once if you feel strongly about that and you get into it, there is inevitably that middle phase of the project or middle to end sort of phase where everything is so chaotic and it just, it looks terrible and you're just second guessing yourself and questioning everything, you know, and you just kind of have to just press on. And I think, I guess that's where oftentimes for me at least, client work helps me get through that phase. Just because there's necessity attached to it. It's like, well, I've got to ship this by the deadline one way or the other. With personal work, it's that much easier to walk away. But I would imagine with filmmaking, when you've got a whole team behind you, that probably also adds some pressure. It's like, okay, this is also not just about me. It's also about everybody involved. We gotta make this look good for them as well, you know? [00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there are so many films that don't exist that were shot too, you know, people I know and some of my own as well back in the day. And so I think it is, there is always a temptation to walk away from it, especially when it's like the teamwork part is done more or less. And now you're just like, just like, will you get this done? You know, I'm sure you feel that way with your own personal project. It's like, no one is forcing me to do this. It's literally just me wanting to have made something, you know? [00:41:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:50] Speaker A: But I think that, I think one of the biggest lessons I would take away from everything. And I also feel like it's almost like a, it's, it's scripture based too. But it's like, and you were asking me like, oh, how do you want your filmmaking to be different? I think the hurry doesn't work. Like, everyone around us is saying, hustle and try. Like, put stuff out, put more stuff out. And I think that it just doesn't work. I think that like the writing process, I just jumped back in with a writing partner on a project and I was like struggling for the first 30 minutes and I was like, how did I do this before? And then I realized, oh, this doesn't work in a hurry. Only works if you're like, I have all the time in the world for a writing process, you know. But I do think in general, like, like social media is great for putting stuff out and you can put masterpieces out too. But I do think that there are projects you gotta do that you're just like, you keep, keep diligently moving the ball forward. But like, you just can't do it in a hurry. You gotta try like, this is the project I'm gonna try to make as good as it can be. [00:42:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:56] Speaker A: And we have tons of projects that are not like that. And I think choosing when it's time to be like, this is the one that's as good as it can be. And, and I understand that perfectionism can get in the way, but I think talking about it with other people and just keep taking steps forward, just being like, oh, my goal is not to finish this. My goal is to make progress today. That's the biggest takeaway for me. And anything that I like that I make. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah. One way that I've been thinking about that a lot is, well, you just see how habits have changed, even just for artists within our lifetime or at least the lifetime of our career, you know, spent online, just seeing the way what things people are posting and everything. You just see how, yeah, what's, what's shared on social media is influencing the, the way artists make the, the things, the types of work that they put out. And it is unfortunate. You know, on one hand, when I was more active on say, Instagram, I was very productive. Like I was just putting out tons of work, but the work, there wasn't a whole lot of depth and complexity there. You know, it was just, I just have to get something out today, today, today, you know, and when I stopped spending as much time on Instagram, you know, got. Took it off my phone, you know, tried to get to a healthier place, I found my productivity like steeply dropped off. I realized that I was in a large way just making work for the algorithm for Instagram. You know, it wasn't like coming from a deeper place of, oh, this is important to me and I need to share about it. And the things that were important to me were things that I was willing to spend more time on, you know, making it look nice and trying to just sharpen myself, my craft. And yeah, again, just the nature of the business today isn't really conducive to excellence. It's, it promotes and it, it encourages really punchy, really kind of grabby sort of content, you know, And I don't know, in my, in my view of things, I think that's unfortunate. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Totally. I think even from like a non Christian perspective, like, you know, in Rick Rubin's book, he, he talks about doing something as an act of worship and he's, you know, I don't even fully know what he believes, but it's spot on. It's like doing it as good as you can make it as an act of worship. And so it's like the way it can sound a little unintuitive, I think, for a Christian, because they're like, well, I should do what God tells me to do as an act of worship. But I think for the artist, God is like, I've empowered you to do something like, just make it as good as you can. And it's like, but what a waste of time. You could say, what a sacrifice of time. And it's like, yeah, it is a sacrifice. Like, lay that down and do it unto God. Well, how do I do that unto God? I'm like, I think it's to, like, invite him into the process and say, hey, I want to do this great with you. I feel like a big part of what the podcast I've been doing, Art and Faith, is about is I'm like, how do we do this unto God? Like, how do we actually make good work? Because I've seen a lot of Christian work that I don't like, and I've seen a lot of non Christian work that I do. Like, like. But I know that God is creative. And so it was, I think, a big part of that podcast was being like, I want to. Everyone who is, like, believes in doing work as an act of worship. And I like the work a lot. I want to talk to all of them and see what's going on. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a great segue because I was excited to reach out to you and pick your brain on some of the topics you've been bringing up with some of your guests because they've been really thought provoking conversations and you're really hitting on a lot of stuff that I'm just constantly spending my days wrestling with, you know, as an artist, as a Christian who happens to also be an artist. And, you know, even talking about things like that quote, you know, by Rick Rubin, you know, it's like I've for a long time been wrestling with that same idea of, okay, if as Christians, we're told to do everything to the glory of God, it's like, we are to be. Our whole lives are. To be a living sacrifice. You know, we're. We're laying down our life and our own kind of inherent, maybe desires what we want and renewing our mind, kind of conforming our lives to the will of God and what he has for us. And so in every moment, everything I'm doing, you know, that that should be the filter that my work is going through. So then naturally that creates some tension when you are moving out into the broader sort of cultural conversation and wanting to create work that engages with the culture, broadly speaking. And so, you know, I, too, I grew up in the church and was oftentimes frustrated by the kind of work that I was seeing done there, especially given the rich history of artwork within the church. You know, just in the past, the architecture and paintings and sculptures, it's like, so much of it was depicting religious scenes. And it seems like there's just something about kind of the modern era that we're in that has allowed the church or the church has just kind of loosened their grip on the importance or the significance of art. But then I vacillate. You know, I'll go back and forth so often, because on the other hand, I see ways in which art can be abused and can be used to just kind of pull up people's emotions and heartstrings. And that kind of touches on some of my opinions. Yeah. Manipulative not to. I'll try to keep it short. Stop rambling here, but no, you're good. I mean, my. A lot of what has me still wrestling with this today is kind of my upbringing in the church. You know, growing up in a more kind of mega church sort of environment, where initially I was very inspired by the sort of work that I was seeing done in that church. But as I got older and I went to design school and I started to get educated on, you know, the tactics of advertising and, you know, all of that marketing, I started to see that everywhere in the church that I was a part of. And I was like, how much of this is marketing? How much of this is people just responding to the tactics of marketing, and how much of it is people responding to the gospel? And that led to my own sort of walking away from art, more or less, you could say that was kind of part of me surrendering what I do to the Lord. You know, I was also, for a time, you know, one of the main criteria when I was looking for a church was how great. How good is their creative team? How good is their music? Yeah. You know, is it. Is it really catchy and all this? And I let go of all of that, you know, at some point and was just like, you know what? I'm here for the word of God, for the gospel message for Jesus. And. And so the churches that I found myself in didn't have any art to speak of within them. And that's kind of where I'm at right now. But then I'm conflicted because art is such a huge part of My life, and I'm drawn to it. I'm making art all the time. I love it. So I'm constantly searching for where's the middle ground? How can we. How can we make art that glorifies God without falling into the trap of trying to use it to manipulate people or to sell something? It's like, we shouldn't be trying to sell the gospel. It should just be a natural overflow of our heart. Our work should be. So I guess to wrap up this ramble here, I know that at one point in one of your interviews, you had spoken, just mentioned in passing, the distinction between art and propaganda. And because I think, you know, you had even framed it as, you know, a lot of the work that's come out of the church is kind of propagandistic in its nature. Even though, as Christians, we would say it's good, the message is good, but as whether or not it's art is questionable, you know, it kind of falls more into the category of, you know, something that's a little bit more salesy, you know? So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that distinction. [00:51:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I relate to that deeply. I would say the moment I walked, I would say, never walked away from God, but I walked away from the church. I remember the crux of that was someone was giving an altar call, which, if you. If you're listening, you don't know what that is. It's when they ask you to accept Jesus into your heart. And there was, like, the band was on playing the song, and I was just remembering, like, this music. Is this designed to emotionally manipulate people into saying yes and just feeling like I was already going through lots of issues at the time. But I felt like that was one thing that I was like, is this manipulation or is that, you know, and really struggling with that. But I think, to answer your question, distinction between, like, art and propaganda, it's tough. But I feel like one of the core aspects, all of it, is, like, truth. And I think that where the churches that do kind of try to make room for art and often more like marketing, I feel like sometimes there's an absence of both sides of the truth. So, like, there's the good news of the gospel, right? Like, we're more loved than we possibly ever thought imagined. But also there's the bad news of the gospel, which is like, we're more broken than we ever thought we were. [00:53:22] Speaker B: Right? [00:53:23] Speaker A: And I think that if you take away one of those, it's because there's a Spin you want on it. And I've seen people take away either side of that coin. There are some people that just can't get out of the fact that the brokenness is there and it's all just deacons direction. And there's some people who can't just like, oh, it's all good. It's all good. Everything's good. It's good news. [00:53:41] Speaker B: Yeah, we're free. [00:53:41] Speaker A: We're free. We're free. You know? [00:53:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:44] Speaker A: And so I feel like to create honest and beautiful work is sort of what I kind of see as the target. I remember talking to a writer, a filmmaking writer that has done some great stuff, and now he's like, in his 70s. And I remember, I was like, is there any different requirements on a writer who believes in God than there is on someone who doesn't? And he sat and thought for a long time, and he's like, I think that for a believer, honesty is a requirement. It has to be truthful. And I think that if you're putting a spin on it or you're not writing something that's truthful, that. That it can easily turn into propaganda. And I know that's. That makes sense for storytelling, but I think there's a version of that too, even in all forms of artwork. It's like, just trying to bring truth into it. Like the full. The full picture. Like the Bible for sure does, you know. [00:54:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Dark in there. And so, yeah, I. There's a lot in that. In that question. But I do think that the short answer, I would say is like, are you presenting all of it, the whole thing? And if you're not, then, like, if you want to show how someone came from, oh, look how much better they're doing now. But you don't want people to know that they still struggle. Are you hiding something? You know what I mean? Like, if someone was set free from, you know, whatever, porn, but then they're like, oh, maybe about, like, I struggle, you know, once a six months, I, you know, try not to. But, like, I feel like a lot of people don't want to hear that side of the story, you know? And so I just think it's like. And I think that little Santa, like, kind of sanitizing the truth is really what made a lot of people just leave because they're like this. There's no room for, like, real brokenness here. There's only room for, like, brokenness in my past. There's no room for brokenness in my present. [00:55:33] Speaker B: Right, right. No, that's. That's really true because I was just listening to an interview with somebody on a podcast not long ago, and I was, you know, I came away with that sort of, you know, that was my takeaway. This person that I was listening to, I was like, man, they are just so honest, you know, not even speaking to necessarily what they were talking about, but you just got the sense that you weren't getting any, I don't know, any fluff, you know, they weren't making stuff up and trying to. They weren't conscious of how they were coming across or appearing to other people. They were just who they were, you know. And unfortunately, I think there's a tendency as believers, you know, and unbelievers, everybody has pride in their heart, you know, they're, you know, fearful of what others might think of them. But I think unfortunately, especially as Christians, there's this. There's this idea that, well, you know, God's told me that we are to be perfect as he is perfect. You know, so there's. There's always this striving to do good, but then also to be perceived as good. And, you know, the beauty of the gospel is that ultimately it's not our works that save us, it's the works of Christ and what he did on our behalf, that's what saves us. So we are to trust in him and not our own works. And so that's where the pharisaical kind of prideful attitude creeps in, is when we start trying to kind of take back the reins and control how things are looking and, you know, how we're doing. And I think that's where I oftentimes see the shift towards something kind of like propaganda or like the work that just is losing its teeth or it's just not as powerful or dynamic is when you get the sense that, like, you're saying we're not getting the full truth. You know, there's something missing here. You know, everybody can kind of sniff it out. [00:57:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think too, one thing I like almost for someone who's like, newer to faith, I would. I feel like it's important for them to hear that as well, because I think a time might come when they're like, oh, this feels like at certain places it could feel a little false. And I think that one. Another reminder is that like every human, a successful Christian is someone who just their arrow points that God is their savior. You know what I mean? Even everyone in the Bible, the heroes of the Bible are all fail big time. And it pretty Much just points that it's Christ that saves. I think one thing I needed to hear, almost like the next step in that I needed to hear was I was like, oh, I just feel like there's this falseness, but also realizing where I was looking. You think that this is the case for everybody? Because I'm looking at all, essentially the famous people or the people that have large followings. And I feel like so much of how God works is, like, below the surface and the roots. And so after being in community and being in a church for a long time, I'm like, oh, there are, like, these people here that are so honest and they're faithful and they're serving others, but they will never be famous. In fact, like, that's. I. I had this feeling about Los Angeles when I first moved to it. So this is like a parallel of this. It's like, oh, it's full of shallow people who want to be famous. And of course, those exist. But I remember walking through downtown one night, and, like, I lived in a tall building, and I looked across into another building, and I saw a guy who was like. It was probably like, you know, one in the morning, and he was, like, sewing a garment, and he was, like, working really hard on it, and he was like. You could tell it was like his. His workspace and that he was working on something. And I remember, like, so often I would look and I would see people by themselves working hard on their art. And I realized, but they don't make noise. You know what I mean? They just do the work. And I think it's true with all things. And it's true in faith in the sense that, like, if you're looking for heroes that are famous, you might be very disappointed. I think the people that have affected my life and probably everybody's life the most are not famous people or not people with huge platforms, but people that are a regular part of their life. People who will sit down and talk with them and spend time with them and, like, share a meal and, you know, so I think that's one thing to look for is like, don't look for those people, as opposed to looking for, like, a king, you know, like a metaphorical king or, you know, a huge leader. [01:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, it calls to mind somewhere in scripture. I can't remember it exactly. You know, it talking about how, as Christians, we are to live quiet lives, you know, working with our hands. You know, it's that sort of idea, you know, and it just runs at odds with social media and what we're encouraged constantly to be doing is to live these loud lives, you know, that we're just kind of constantly, constantly shouting about the problems of the world and how we're going to fix them or how other people should fix them, but also just about ourselves and what we're doing. Me, me, me, all the time, you know, and the people that I respect the most are oftentimes these older people who are far wiser than me, that are also. Those are the people who have every reason to be talking the loudest, but they're the quietest in the room and. And they carry this humility while simultaneously just being so incredibly wise. And yeah, I think that is the key. There are these two lines that I often like to consider together. One is from one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's books in which a character says that he is happiest who knows best how to deceive himself. And then I think about somewhere in Proverbs, I think it is, or Ecclesiastes, where it talks about how with an increase in knowledge comes an increase in sorrow. And I think that is kind of speaking to the process of maturation. You know, it's like the older we get, the more you're exposed to the darkness in this life and in this world, you realize how little you know and how much more you have to learn. And it's easy to neglect that process if we're just constantly entertaining ourselves and not allowing ourselves to engage with some of these bigger, deeper, darker questions and seeking the right place to go for the answers to those questions. [01:02:21] Speaker A: Skip. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Continuing on this thread. Speaking to honesty and truth telling and art. You know, at the same time, I sometimes will see Christian artists in their. In their attempt to just be truthful in their work. You know, they'll be exploring kind of the darker corners of life in a way that sometimes starts to look like indulgence or like they're kind of reveling in it or at least making it look cooler than we probably should be if we're believing there's a better way. I wonder with filmmaking. You know, filmmaking poses a challenge in that, you know, if we're considering writing. Vice in the darker corners of life can be introduced in a. In a way that doesn't fill the reader's mind with unnecessary details, you know, that might detail that inflames the reader's own inherent, sinful desires. And so we see examples of ways in which authors have navigated this really well in classic literature. Like I mentioned Fyodor Dostoyevsky's books, the Brothers Karamazov or Crime and Punishment or Oscar Wilde's the Picture of Dorian Gray. In those stories, these characters walk down some pretty dark paths, and yet we aren't given the intimate details, you know, with filmmaking, on the other hand, it poses a challenge in that, you know, characters in the story are being played by actual people. And so the scenes depicting vice, you know, they can't be visualized without actors essentially participating in at least the motions of that particular vice, whatever it might be. Have you thought much about this? Have you had to deal with much of that, any of that in your work? [01:04:18] Speaker A: Thought a lot about this? That's a great question. Jumping to the first part kind of you were talking about. I do think one area you'll see this with Christians is in. In the spirit of being honest is this deconstruction. And so not just of, like, faith, but deconstruction in general. I think there's so much artwork Christian or non Christian, especially actually non Christian artwork that is about. It just deconstructs. So essentially the end of it, the. The message I receive is that, like, things are awful. People are worse than you thought. The end, you know? [01:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:59] Speaker A: And like, even the shows that are good, like Breaking Bad is a lot of that. And it's also really well made and I enjoy it, you know, I'm not saying that it's like, good for me, but it is well made, you know. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:12] Speaker A: And I think too then deconstruction was a little like it wasn't as common. Like, I feel like it was like half and half back then. Now I feel like it's like 95% of all stuff is like, look how bad this is. [01:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:25] Speaker A: Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And it can be like, people can be interested in stuff to see how dark it gets, but I do feel like I'm almost just like bored of it now. Like no one wanting to say anything or that truth exists, but essentially to kind of essentially saying truth doesn't exist is what is the theme of a lot of this? Or justice doesn't exist and. [01:05:45] Speaker B: Right. [01:05:46] Speaker A: So I think one area where you'll see that in is like, if I think music is always a great, like, kind of like shorter version of film for me to be like, see what's happening in art. But I feel like when songs just end with things are bad, you know, to me that doesn't. It just doesn't satisfy me creatively like it like it used to. And so I don't quite. It's. Man, it's so difficult to know, like, what that line is. Like you said, especially in film, I definitely don't want. There are things that I have convictions about that I just won't put into projects. But there are things that I would put into projects that I know that other people would not. And people. There are people that would be like, oh, I think it's a sin that this is in there, you know, and then other people would be like, oh, I'm so glad it is. And I think all I know for me is to, like, real. What I can promise people is that, man, I really do try to seek the Lord on what goes in and what doesn't. And I think there are actually similar to writing, there are actually a lot more tricks to not doing things and still getting the message across. In film, I think the more you see film, there's ways to not show something but to imply it. There are ways to do things. And so I think that there's actually a lot of creative solutions to kind of work within that space. But I do think it's a very. I've asked a lot of people the same thing on my podcast of, like, some people say if you write a story, it creates empathy, and thus it's good unto itself no matter what it is. And I'm like, I don't feel that way personally. I feel like there's some stuff that can, like, I watch. I feel like it's, like, hurting me, you know? [01:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:30] Speaker A: And so. And then some people would say, like, oh, unless it says, like, Christ is king, it's not, you know? And so I think it's. It does sort of seem like it's not one size fits all. I do think, like, the Lord is probably calling people to work within their convictions. Like, you know, like, my mom was, like, in the occult when she was younger, and she's super sensitive to anything spiritual, like Halloween stuff. But I also think maybe I digress too far on that. She's doing great now. But I think it's like, whatever you've gone through, you know, really, I think you have more of a sensitive spot for it. And maybe God's a part of that. Like, maybe that's what he wants for you and what he's calling you to do in your life, you know, I think, like, I do think a pastor should probably intake art differently than, like, an artist should, but I don't quite. I don't think I can draw one size fits all for anyone on that, you know. That's a tough one. [01:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it's really true. Yeah, I guess there are a couple things there. I mean, one you hit on, or at least, you know, something that you said made me think about earlier on and what you were saying there is, you know, talking about different things that you can use, the kind of artistic devices that you can use to imply things. I've often thought about that as it relates to humor. You know, there's. There's a lot of humor, a lot of art, you know, even outside of humor, where it just kind of throws everything out there. And so it's almost more about shock value than it is about, like, a real creative sort of punchline, you know? And I've always found the most impressive, the most engaging works of art and the funniest comedians are the ones that are very clever. You know, it's like you don't see it coming. And when you get hit with the punchline, it's not funny because it's shocking as much as it's funny because they just made such a brilliant connection, you know, to something they said earlier or to just something that we all experience in life every day. And I think that, to me, gets at what really great art comes down to is. I. I've often thought about art in its ideal form. I think art should almost be like philosophy, where you're, like, searching for the essence of something and trying to speak to something, point something out that everybody is familiar with. You're trying to call their attention to it in a way that will allow everybody to appreciate it. Because, again, I think the best humor, if we're keeping it in that category, is the humor where everybody can be laughing. We're not laughing at any one particular person or group of people. It's. We're laughing at the human experience. Like, that's the most potent sort of humor, I think. And I think, yeah, so I forgot what it was exactly that called that to mind. But I wonder if that resonates with you in any way. [01:10:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that definitely does. And I think it can be like. I think you can even. Sometimes I see films in little moments, things they do that I'm like, oh, that's a great way to do it. And not even from Christians making films. But talk about the humorous side of it. And some people would be very offended by this, maybe. But I feel like, and I should say I think that porn is evil and poison. But that being said in this film, Don Jon with Joseph Gordon Lovitz I remember a big part of the story, and it actually becomes a serious story. And I think if you're gonna do a story on someone who's, like, struggling through addiction to pornography, like, there became. There's a sound cue of when he would delete his Internet history. Like the little trash sound you hear on an Apple computer, you know, and that just became this. Once they established it, it became this like, oh, we know what happened. Now he's deleting his history, you know, And I remember thinking, oh, this is like a. Not only, like. To be honest, it was very funny. For me, it was like, that's hilarious. But it's also. The story becomes meaningful. It's not. It's not like it just stays irreverent. Everything. It becomes a story about, like, healing. [01:11:51] Speaker B: Right. [01:11:52] Speaker A: And why. It's not a perfect film that I would say people should watch, but I will say that it's like, that's just an example of, like, not only is it was it funny, but it was a way of not showing us something. You know what I mean? That became a shorthand. Also move the story along quicker. And so I do think there are or craft ways to do it well. And. [01:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of this that we're kind of talking around, it's also kind of getting at something that I've heard about a lot. Like, growing up in the church, there was often this eagerness to be relevant. And, you know, I didn't think about it much when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've just. I've started to realize how problematic that can be as a starting point for almost any endeavor. Not even necessarily just a Christian endeavor. I think if you're starting with the goal of making sure you're being relevant to other people, then you are going to just by definition, have to compromise on your message a little bit. If by definition, it's something that people aren't wanting to engage with. So I wonder if you've thought much about that as it relates to not necessarily making Christian art, but just being a Christian making art. Do you wrestle with that idea of, is this going to be relevant? Or how do you approach that general idea? [01:13:25] Speaker A: I think, to me, a perfect example of what the goal of Christians being relevant looks like is. Did you ever go to, like, Christian bookstores like Mardell's, and there's a section of T shirts, and they're like, instead of. It's the Godzilla shirt, but instead of Godzilla, it says, like, God's love, but it looks like Godzilla. [01:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:47] Speaker A: Or like, it says a bread crumb and fish instead of Abercrombie and Fish, Abercrombie and Fish. So that is the greatest success you can have in seeking to be relevant and making Christian art, in my opinion, is copy culture. [01:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:03] Speaker A: Which is like inherently, if you're into it, then go for it. But I think most people are not. And I think it's copy culture is what you get out of that. And copy culture is not the same thing at all. You know what I mean? Not only is it behind, but it's also like it's a shadow of something. It's sort of stealing from something as well. And so I think that I know the. I think it is funny if the goal is to be relevant, you're already like, you're already missing the mark and you're already behind, you know, because you're just reacting. [01:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:38] Speaker A: So I would say the goal should not be relevant. So then I guess the question is like, what should the goal be? And I guess for me, like, I try not to think about that at all. And maybe it seeps in, you know, Like, I choose. I choose to put my short film in a genre, a thriller genre, which you could argue is, you know, seeking to be relevant. But I kind of see it as like a shorthand, as a way to be able to. Like, the audience halfway already knows what's going on because of the genre, you know. So, yeah, I guess that's not. It's just not where it comes from for me. It's not where the ideas come from or I get interested. You know, it's. I think at one point in time that all I knew to do was to replicate work to learn. And then I think it's like when real moments in your life, things you're really struggling with, real questions you have, like those being motivations for something to create or things that just like you're drawn to in your own private time, even if nobody saw it, you know, I kind of think that that's more the place where to start. Start from? Yeah. What do you think about, like, how do you deal with that, that topic? [01:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you in that. I think it's just a bad starting point. There was this book that I read by, I can't remember his first name, a poet from the 1700s or something, Schiller, where the book was called Naive and Sentimental Poetry. And so what he meant by those two different terms, he was contrasting the two types of poetry. Naive was almost like this childlike sense of creativity. And he was contrasting that with sentimental poetry, which was like self aware poetry. And so a lot of his thinking was derived from, oh, what's the other philosopher? Oh, it'll come to me. But anyways, he was trying to kind of show how that when, when you're creating from a standpoint of just kind of just being self aware, you're just naturally kind of muddying the waters. And the work's not going to be as engaging as that sort of work where you just lose yourself in it. And so the work is this natural sort of unconscious byproduct of what's already within you. And so the philosopher was Rousseau, and he's the one who's kind of credited with coining the whole idea of the noble savage and his work. And that was taken to, I think, a problematic place because I think he had a skewed view of human nature and thinking that we were just born inherently good and that society corrupted us. And I just don't think if you have kids, you can hold to that view. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [01:17:37] Speaker B: It's like sin is in the heart at the very beginning for sure. But I think that he was really onto something in that there is this distinction between the two. The way I've kind of like to look at it is a distinction between childlike creativity and childish creativity. And so just to unpack that a little bit more, I would say that when we refer to childlikeness, we're referring to all the positive attributes of childhood. You know, wonderful and this humility, this desire to share in the joys of life with others. I mean, kids are constantly offering you their candy and a flower and whatever they found. These are all these positive aspects of childhood. And then there's the negative aspect of childhood which we're referring to when we are calling someone childish. You know, they're being selfish and they're throwing fits and they're again, they're mostly just thinking about themselves. And you see that repeated in adolescence where when we become teenagers and we're very self aware and the work starts to get skewed there, where it's just not as innocent and pure as it was when we were children. And I think when it comes to something like relevance, if you're creating from a place that's like your starting point, it seems like it's more coming from that self aware place. It might not necessarily be selfish where you're like trying to be promoting yourself, but it's not coming from that honest place of just, that's really good, losing yourself in the work and just being excited about the work and wanting to share the work with others. And I think that's what we see in any true masterpiece. It's, it's the product, it's the fruit of an artist who was just so enthralled in their subject and in their craft and all they were focusing on was capturing it in a way, capturing the impression that they had when they first engaged or experienced the subject that they're painting or making a film about or whatever it might be. And I think that's what creates the most honest work is when you're just single mindedly focused on your craft. And you know, somebody might argue, no, you should be single mindedly focused on the end, like the goal, the message. And that's a factor. But I think that is if you're considering, if you're having to consider that really hard in the process, I would almost say it's a little too late. Like, I think you are going to necessarily wind up creating something that feels a little bit kitschy. If you're constantly thinking about the message and the sort of end result that you're trying hoping to get across with the work of art, you need to have imbibed that message first. And then you approach your craft and you work hard and the end result is going to be what it's going to be. If it's going to be a great work of art. That's where art can be very revealing and it can be very intimidating to create from an honest place because we might not even necessarily be happy with the result of our most honest works of art. And it might call out the things that we still really need to change. But arguably I think that work is going to be more engaging and dynamic than a work that is trying to kind of whitewash those aspects of ourselves that we don't necessarily like. [01:21:14] Speaker A: You know, 100%, that's a great, a great answer. I. Along those exact lines. I feel very strongly about this. I think, let's say first for someone who is a believer, you want to make work that honors God or you want to do it unto him. I feel this is essentially true for a non believer as well with our work. But I think the metaphor I would use is, okay, I want to make an apple. That's my goal, is to make an apple. So what do I need to do to make an apple? Well, I need like an apple skin. I need the inside and the extem. I need some like the red. You know, you kind of like have these things you need to do to try to make an apple. And what I feel like that is working backwards. I feel like what? There's good news and the bad news. There's a way to make an apple that's way easier, but it also will change your life, which is you need to be an apple tree. Like, you need to, like, be living the life. So, like, the roots grow deep, you water it, you raise your branches to the sun. Like, I think it's. You live this lifestyle that you've. You know what I would say for the believer that what God is calling you to do is, like, it's really a pretty reckless life of following the Lord and going where he leads and really trying to hear from Him. Like, it's almost like that, and it becomes a part of the tree. And just naturally, as you go to write or as you go to make artwork, like, what comes from it is a result of the life you're living. [01:22:46] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:46] Speaker A: And so if you're living this life and adventurous life, like, let's even for a non believer, like, live a life of, like, justice, of standing up for what you believe in, of trying to honor people, you know, whatever it is, I think, like, as you live that life and you just write, actually, I would say to write what you're drawn to, what you love, that will be embedded into the DNA of it. It will just spill out, so you don't have to choose to do it. The messages will come through on, I feel like, on a subconscious level, and it makes for something much better. But the bad news is, like, you got to live your life this way. It's also the good news, you know. [01:23:21] Speaker B: But it's like, yeah, yeah. [01:23:23] Speaker A: I think that when you want to write about being brave, it's like, well, do something brave and then just write a story you like and watch what happens, you know? [01:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. [01:23:36] Speaker A: It's not a perfect metaphor, but it's one. I feel like you don't have to try to get the message across if you really are chasing after living your life in this way. That's my belief. I think it will kind of spill into it, whether you wanted to or not. [01:23:50] Speaker B: Yeah, right. No, that's really true. That's really good. Thank you for coming on the podcast and for what you're doing with your podcast. Again, like I said, I've really enjoyed listening in to the different guests that you've had on. So, yeah, I hope you'll keep it up. I know firsthand how much time and energy goes into putting something like that out there. So, yeah, thanks again for coming on the podcast. [01:24:18] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely will keep it up. I've been loving being able to do it. The Art and Faith podcast has been for me, it's like, I would do these conversations even without the podcast, but it just enables me to get to them, you know? So I appreciate you saying that. And I think maybe one thing, like, I would leave people with that I feel strongly about too, is like, God has. It's already begun. God is calling artists who are living this way and creating stuff. And I've seen more and more of them. Like, that's so much what the podcast is about that I do is, like, getting to talk to people. And I think God is doing a really big thing in the art space all across the board. And I think that the more technology kicks in, the more people are all numbed out, the more art can awaken the imagination and, like, jar people out of it. And I think God's going to use it in a really big way. And so I just want to encourage everyone to be like, I feel like there's never been a better time to like, boldly chase after it and to really with that, to boldly chase after what the Lord is leading you to do, you know? And, yeah, so I don't know. To me, it's an exciting time. I keep seeing more and more of it. [01:25:28] Speaker B: So before we go, is there anything you'd like to make listeners aware of or feel free to share how people can find your work? [01:25:39] Speaker A: I think it's just like, all my links and everything are pretty much on my Instagram. Nathan Presley. But I think what I would maybe say is like, yeah, if the. The conversation between art and faith is something you're drawn to, I feel like I've been blessed to hear. I just asked really talented people who love the Lord questions, you know, so obviously they can. They can check it out there. But, yeah, all my links are, you know, if you just Google Nathan Presley, they're all there. But, yeah, I think that's. That's pretty much it. I don't got much else. [01:26:10] Speaker B: Great. Well, yeah. Well, thanks again, Nathan. I've really enjoyed talking with you. [01:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, this has been great. I truly love these conversations. So thank you for having me on.