Dave Wilton | Producer & Musician

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Dave Wilton. He is a multi talented creative. He's a music producer, creator, singer, songwriter. Some of his clients and collaborators include some of my favorite musicians. So you got Josh Garrels, you got Gregory Allen Isaacoff, Nathaniel Ratliff, this mixture of like faith driven music and non faith driven music as well. There's also some worship leaders in there that are great like Young Oceans and Jonathan and Melissa Helser. So just very much a talented guy but he's also a gifted musician himself. He's in two different bands, a boy and his kite, loud harp. His music has been featured on huge movies, he's on music charts and was listed on Google's top best unsigned artists and founded a studio in Colorado where he makes kind of a high end space for indie worship and indie orange music but worship as well and film music. But yeah, he's just a kind soul and I'm so grateful he joined us on here. So without further delay, let's talk art and faith with Dave Wilton. When did God become real? [00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think God always was real to me. I think from a time I was a young kid always had a sense and an awareness of God but I didn't per se like have an encounter until I was like just about to turn 16 and it was a terrifying, beautiful, intense meeting with Jesus and, and yeah, I had a similar experience of feeling rescued, of being given life, like felt like I wasn't even alive before that moment. So it's hard to put it into words but it was a very traumatic and the best use of that word encounter with God when you say it. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Being traumatic in that experience. Can you share more on that or you know. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I was born with the ability to have a little bit more awareness of the spiritual realm for a lack of a better definition. And because of that I grew up in Peoria, Illinois, which is a lovely midwestern town in Illinois right on the Illinois river and there's lots of. I grew up with wonderful Christian parents who taught me, you know, Christianity from a young age and like Presbyterian, Conservative Baptist kind of genre ice cream flavor and I just never found God in it. I was always searching for God, always trying to connect to God. But I think my usefulness and my. Yeah, for whatever reason man, I, I got, in my quest to know God I got into spiritism and the occult and basically ended up in Buddhism and had a spirit guide since I was the age of 11 and it was quite mystical. That's always been My spiritual normal, you know, whereas most people go into first gear, spiritually speaking, it's like my first gear is a little different, you know, and that's okay. That's not better, not worse, but. And so for me, I had an entity that I would barter with in exchange for knowledge and power and whatever. And I thought that was God, but I was. I was mistaken. And it kind of started spiraling as teenage years are pretty hard. And it finally came to a head and I, like, challenged the spirit, my spirit guide. And like, if you're not God, like, who are you? Yeah, like, for some reason I just had that question and a lot of it had to do with my parents and my brother challenging me. And yeah, in that moment, that spirit revealed itself to me fully. I understood that I had been messing with some darkness and I was freaked out in my mind and just totally fearful. And it was in that place of living in that place of fear for about a month that Jesus met me and like, rescued me. And yeah, it changed me. So. So it was like, wasn't like an idea. It wasn't like a. It was an encounter with God. And I'm great, so grateful for Jesus for meeting me. [00:04:13] Speaker A: That's really beautiful, man. I feel like it's so important to have that conversation. Like, even in the last year of my life, even from a spiritual place, it's amazing what I've seen. And as I'm trying to serve the Lord and trying to do these things, I feel like I realize there was a part of my me that thought sort of this, you know, like, oh, the Bible talks about the spiritual stuff, so that's all real, but it's just not something I'm going to really encounter. And I was very wrong. You know, I felt like we've seen some. Some crazy things, but really seeing God show up in a beautiful way, it's so real. [00:04:42] Speaker B: And it. And it is a part of our. We've been invited to. Anyone who's been rescued by God is invited to participate in demonstrating that rescue to other people, you know, So I was rescued from evil spirits. So, yeah, when there's someone in our local community that is seeking deliverance from evil spirits. Like, I don't even know these people, and they find me and I get to pray for them. And it has nothing to do with my authority or my knowledge or. It's not like a recipe. It's. Christ saved me. Christ wants to save you. Do you want to receive this rescue? And nine out of ten times they do, you know, and it's so. So, yeah, I wouldn't consider myself like a specialist and casting out demons, but I. But I do it. You know what I mean? It's weird and it's so hard to explain to people, but man, I love. [00:05:37] Speaker A: I love hearing that, especially from someone who is creating art. I feel like it's so easy to like, take on an identity and be like, oh, I'll be the music guy or I'll be the film guy, you know, and then any meeting you go into, you're like, well, that's probably why I'm talking about that. And so I feel like there's. That's so much of what art and faith the idea is. I've heard plenty of people talk about art and I've heard Tony Pastors talk about faith and the idea of like, where do these things kind of cross over at times? And I think that more what I'm finding is that they should often do more than we, we know, but kind of with that. Do you feel the Holy Spirit plays a role in kind of in the music writing process and the producing process, or have you ever experienced something that felt like, oh, I feel like God is clearly doing something with this? [00:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, all the time. I think that that's, that's kind of why I do music. It's always just inspired me and like, given me a tremendous amount of encouragement in my life. Songs or hearing a band for the first time or a song comes out of me and not knowing where it comes from. But I think the Holy Spirit's role in that is always just such a helper, such an encourager. And my response is always just to listen. And I think it always looks different every time. Just because like a song came out of this guitar in this circumstance one day doesn't mean that it's going to come out another time or a conversation with a friend and say a production's happening and. And they're like, we start sensing something like the muse, for a better word, or Holy Spirit like shows up and there's like this creative energy that's wanting to participate with us. Can we listen and be aware? Do we have the awareness to respond to that? And then once we are aware of it, can we like, surrender to it? And that's to me, just part of everyday living as a human, but also as a creative. Yeah, it's a. It's mostly built on surrender, you know? [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. What would you say for other people who are like, want to like, kind of hear the Holy Spirit and Hear the music. And I guess I'm thinking of in the art creating process, but I think it really is. You're right. I think it is just like life. And maybe the answer's in there somewhere. But what would you say to someone of like, oh, I would love. I want to try to like, bring God into this and like, have an ear to hear him or hear his inspiration or his, you know, the Holy Spirit. Is there something you would that you found that kind of like, oh, this is what I do? [00:08:28] Speaker B: Yes. I think the only thing that's consistent is that I have to be present with myself and I have to. You know, in the Christian traditions, there's like centering prayer and there's exercises we can do that allow us to be fully present with ourselves in this moment of time, with our emotions, with our thoughts, with our body. Because the one thing I've learned about God from the beginning was that he, God doesn't like, mess with our delusions. He'll rescue us from him sometimes and he'll let us. He's totally fine letting us live in delusion. But where God is a hundred percent of the time is where I'm actually at because God's with me. God's with you. So if I'm not with myself, how can I expect to be aware of what God's doing? And so that's one thing. Like, I think people think that God's outside and like, if we somehow pull the right lever and string, God will show up. But I find in my practice of spirituality and the work I do with God and, and music is that when I'm actually present with myself, God's always there. Always. I'm not saying I'm God. You know what I mean? Like, there's a difference for sure. [00:09:54] Speaker A: No, I think that's really good. I think that spent a lot of my life being like, God, why won't you talk to me like you did to people in the Bible? I'm looking for a conversation. I'm looking for, you know, and that's still a fair question for me at times. But I do think more than ever he speaks to me. And I think it's like so much of it was. My mind was racing and I was feeling every thought with every sound or music or show or anything I could just to stay busy and just squeezing in a complaint about not hearing his voice and then going back to my busy life, you know. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:28] Speaker A: And so I think that's. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Which I'm guilty of it. We all. Yeah, that's. That's the challenge every day. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. I've often felt like the film industry sort of has like follows what the music industry does or it's maybe about. Usually about 10 years behind. So like when people started making stuff at home ten years later film started becoming a lot more indie and people kind of make stuff in their backyard and. But I mean I feel like the. Your definitely an example of this and a lot of the artists you work with, I feel like someone's faith or spiritual like life can spill into music and it'd be beautiful and sort of multi dimensional for me at least. And then of course there's always other music as well. That why some people may love for me can feel a little lacking or one dimension. But I think when I look in the film space I especially can see that with like something is quote a faith based film. At least historically this is kind of changing I think. But historically there's can feel pretty one dimensional or just something is not landing for me. You've like worked with, you know, I don't even like using the term secular artists, but you've worked with people who are intentionally putting faith into their music and people that are putting their life into their music in great capacity. And I'm just curious if you would have any advice or input on you know, kind of what stands in the way of some of that more like faith based, specifically genre ed out music or film or art, you know, art in general. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. I hope I don't get too saucy but you know, for me art's just always been art. And it was, you know, it came before written language. You know, it's our oldest record of our ancestors. There's. There's things that like it needs no justification and creating and appreciating art is just part of being human, I think. But what makes it the most human is when you can express it without any form of manipulation. And what I mean by that is like if I'm thinking about an audience or a crowd or a demographic of people to sell a product, well then it's like you're making a product, but there's the soul of the art is at that risk of losing itself, you know. [00:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:49] Speaker B: And so when it comes to like putting a label on something like art, Christian music, Christian film, it's. I had this thought recently about AI and how AI possesses all the knowledge that, you know, has at least been documented in written form and a lot of things. But it requires prompts to do the thing that you're trying to create. And so, like, Christian music is like a very narrowing prompt in my experience of a human's expression of their life and their love and everything in music. It's like, it's just a very narrow prompt that doesn't. That limits the outcome of something. And most often, I hate to break it to people, but, you know, like, I work in music. This is the industry I've chosen. But, like, I feel like I've somehow. I'm not in la, I'm not in Nashville, I'm not New York. Like, I can try to maintain a relationship with music apart from commerce, and that's very difficult to do. I mean, there's things I do in my life that allow me to keep it apart from commerce, but it also allows me to just, like, I make music because it's what I love to do. It brings me joy. And I found that helping other people make music is a really. I don't know how else to better spend my time, you know, And I would do it if I didn't make any money at all. And I'm grateful that I have a career in this stuff. But I. But I never. The artist I work with, we never think about anyone else other than, how do you feel? What is. What does this song make you? What are you trying to express? We only talk about the art. There's no, like, any other conversations. And I think Christian music, from the onset. Sorry, a roundabout way of getting back to AI is like, we're going to write a song that, like, saves people, Going to write a song that, like, confronts whatever in culture. We're going to. It gets, like, political and manipulative because you're forcing. It's a writing prompt that ultimately I'd like to think is pure, but it's all about how many listens and get this song played in churches and on the radio. And I don't think art was meant to do that. Art's not art. Songs come when we don't deserve them and, you know, they just. They come and we get to share them, you know, so. Not to one other thought I had and I. Thanks for sending me some of these questions earlier, because I was like, just good to be. Like, what do I think about it? You know? Yeah, I feel the same weirdness and like, what's the word? Icky is not the right word. It's like off of some sort. Oh, something off. When I put Christian and then anything else after it. [00:15:50] Speaker A: It's not a very good adjective. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Like today you know, Christian nationalism, that, that's a bummer for me. It's like putting Christian music, Christian nationalism, they're kind of the same thing idea to me. It's like it's putting two things together that really just cause division and elitism. Like if something's good, just enjoy it and make it. But I think that art, like is a boundary breaking entity that's meant to invite us all into the awareness that we're all the same, that there's no us versus them, or that we're the same and we're all human and we get to experience the same God that loves us. And so I like to participate in art that like, has no boundaries, if that makes sense. The labels tend to be pretty bad boundaries. [00:16:42] Speaker A: It's cool to hear you talk about how your relationship to music and art and how you would do it with or without pay, you know, And I'm always curious to hear about the importance of. I mean, it sounds like this is very much in your wheelhouse, but of like quote, passion projects, like I'm already seeing your process feels a little more like an intuitive one and one of like a feel called to make. But I feel like you also get paid to do it. And so I'm interested in like maybe even what that ratio can look like. I feel like I found that if I don't do passion projects as well, like I start to die inside, you know what I mean? Like, to me those two go hand in hand. And I'm just kind of curious for you how you feel about like the idea of passion projects and the ratio of like, you know, you're also a dad, you know, and paying bills and. Yeah. What do you, what are you, what, what keeps your soul in a good spot? You kind of landed on a percentage or any thought process on that. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, my own art creation for a long time has been seasonal. And it would reach this like, point of where the reservoir was like so full that I felt sick that I hadn't been giving enough time for my own personal exploration and discovery of what I've been invited into and music and sound. And I would describe it as like, I would be producing a record and I would have an idea come to me. And then all of a sudden, if my first instinct was not generosity and giving that idea to someone, then I'd be like, whoa, okay, I'm not healthy right now because I think generosity and art, that should be our first, that should be our really our only stance, I think. And so when that would happen, rather than burn out and like resent giving away all these ideas. I had a mentor early on encouraged me that like, hey, be just someone who welcomes ideas and you never have to like ever get worried about giving them away. Like some people only get like one good idea in their life, you know, but like I'm fortunate that like whenever they come I'm listening, you know, or try to be listening so I can like give them away. But it was that moment of realization that, oh, I need to, I need to figure out what's going on here. So I had the chance of making lots of albums. Two A Boy and His Kite, albums of my own personal journey and then one with my bandmate Asher Seifink and Loud Harp. And we made three of those albums. And those were just like pretty regular. Like I probably made one of my own albums every two years on and off for a decade. And then recently in the last year I've realized that I need that. And so I've set aside Wednesdays to just make art for no reason. So it mostly looks like music. Cause I love music, I'm obsessed with music and I. Some days it's writing new material, some days it's like spinning the wheel and be like, okay, what did I do three years ago that I've never gave time to? And so, but yeah, like once a week during like a work day, I will work on my own stuff and create space for it. And I do it kind of like the Leonard Cohen approach. Like I get ready, I sit at the bus. If the bus of creativity and a song comes, I'll jump on and ride it as long as it'll take me. Sometimes that's all day, sometimes that's 30 minutes. But I did the work, you know, I was available. And that's. Honestly, I've been such a happier person since doing that. And that's one practice where I'm able to choose to do a passion project for my own well being. But I'm a better husband, I'm a better friend, I'm a better father, I'm a better producer, mixer, you name it. When I'm doing that stuff that's really cool. [00:20:49] Speaker A: I was had a kind of this self sabotage, fearful love relationship with writing for like screenplays and film stuff for a long time. And I felt like there's times I would just try to cram, like I'm gonna go lock myself up for, you know, three days somewhere and write. And sometimes I, you know, would write to whatever degree, but just never fully finishing things. And I think That's a. Its own conversation. But I felt like when I was kind of praying about it, I'm like, if I'm being honest, I feel like God is telling me to do this, and yet it's. I just can't, like, do it. It's what. It felt like a. I had someone pray for me, but also I felt like lord was like, 20 minutes a day. Think of it like, go water the grass and then go back into your work that you do to pay the bills for your family, you know, and. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:41] Speaker A: And I was like, It'll take forever. 20 minutes a day. And what's so funny is like, within like four months, I had it, like, it finished, you know, and it was like there were years, you know, maybe eight years before trying to finish it, you know, And I just feel like for me, the Lord really used that. Just like 20 minutes of faithfulness, no matter what it looks like putting in that time, I could like, leave, being like, oh, I did. I did the goal, you know, and feel like the Lord kind of helped me in that. So you have these Wednesdays that you do kind of set aside for this, and then the other days of the week when you're working with people and working with artists. I'm interested to hear a little bit about that of like, do you have like an approach? You know, it seems sort of like the Christianese maybe on it is like a shepherding role, like producing, you know, But I'm just kind of curious what that looks like for you. [00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's just a lot of like, listening and being present with someone who's about to like, it's always like the first day when you're with a new client is always the best because they don't. You don't know each other. They're like, do I trust you? I'm paying you money. You're trying to make everyone feel like they can be themselves and not just themselves, but the best version of themselves. And so I think if the. The job of producer and even mixing or recording, it's just like I'm listening intently every moment of how I can help someone, you know, that's it. Like, if I have an idea about how to help someone through the many, many years of doing this, I'll. It manifests in different ways. It could be like a conversation where I. Without manipulating, you know, because I'm big on that. There is a question I'm trying to get to because I know that if they ask that question, they will find a path forward, you know, in A song in an emotion, in a performance. It could be introducing them to a new instrument or a new sound, which is lovely, because, you know, you just feel like Santa. It's like they're like hitting a wall, and I don't know. And then you, like, hand them something that makes the sound that was in their brain. They just didn't know it was in their brain. And that's super fun. Knowing when to take breaks, knowing when to push into something. You know, new ideas are really fragile, and especially when you don't have built in trust in relationship and. But they're also very exciting. And so being a steward of the ideas when they come, I think is a. That's what I've tried to work on in my professional career, is just being a very good listener and knowing how to connect to that human, that person, so that they can then turn. Be present with themselves and make something truly extraordinary. [00:24:38] Speaker A: That's really cool. It's crazy how spiritual that feels, you know, to just be present and to try to listen. And it's pretty much the same answer as, like, whether that be spiritually or physically, you know? [00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And can we make whatever we interact with better? You know, because then every time God interact with God, he makes me better. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:58] Speaker B: And I think that we have that invitation to help other people in whatever way that looks like. Like I said, it looks totally different for everybody. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. [00:25:11] Speaker B: You know, it's a horrible word to try to describe it. You know what I mean? [00:25:15] Speaker A: No, for sure. We host a community group every Tuesday where we make dinner and have people come over in our community and Dion talk about the Lord and different things, but everybody is so different. And I used to prepare for, like, two hours to try to, like, almost like, prepare like a sermon. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:35] Speaker A: And I felt like one day God was like, stop. He's like, you can't hear anybody with you and your sermon. You know? And I felt like it was like, more just like maybe I could. One or two questions and just listen and see where it goes, you know? [00:25:47] Speaker B: But that thoughtfulness, you know, like the fact that you prepared and then you were able to release it and surrender it, that. That can be felt by everybody, you know? [00:25:58] Speaker A: Totally. [00:25:58] Speaker B: Like, that's important stuff, is that you had something that you thought was important, but you're putting someone else's. They're more important than your thought. Like, that's. Man, that. That'll encourage and bless people every time when they see us do that, you know? [00:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. That's good. Even in our short conversation already, I'm like, to me, it feels so clearly like there's calling and then there's career. And sometimes if you're lucky, you get a. Your career gets to compliment your calling. And I feel like not only are you really gifted in what you do career wise and art wise, but I feel like there's so clearly this calling of, like, being sensitive to the spirit and listening, being there for people and being available. Like, when you talk about, oh, yeah, if someone needs deliverance, I make myself available for that. And if somebody is struggling with what instrument, you know, to go, make myself available for that. And it's. It's cool to see that. It seems like that calling is just kind of in the stuff you're doing, you know? It's cool. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Yeah. I feel so fortunate. I was studying that kind of was radically saved and it was awesome. So I thought, oh, I should go to Bible school. That's what Christians do. I had no idea, you know? [00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:11] Speaker B: And it was during that I was like, I quickly found myself as an ra, like, in charge of a bunch of dudes in a wing at a Christian university. And I was with the past pre, like, pastoral seminary students. And. And because that's when I was like, oh, I should be a pastor, but man, like, I was just a musician. Punk rock kid. He'd gotten delivered, you know, and it was striking when someone would get their girlfriend pregnant or when someone had a loss. They didn't go to people for answers. They just wanted someone that would, like, love on them and pray with them. And I always was like, I don't need answers. I don't know how to start. You got your girlfriend pregnant? Oh, man, that's okay. Here we go. And so it was like, shortly after that that I discovered that my love of music that I'd had since I was a child, that God would use that too, you know, that it was not lesser than some calling to be a preacher or whatever, that he was willing to use the things, like the things that brought me the greatest joy. You would gladly use that to help people through my life. And so I dropped out and went to recording school not knowing anything about anything other than having opinions about music and sound. And I've been so blessed. [00:28:39] Speaker A: That's awesome. You talk about the importance of sort of being present with yourself, and I feel like that isn't work. That's just necessarily human's default mode. Is there any, like, sort of spiritual practices, patterns, things you do in your life? [00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah, this is one of My favorite questions you sent me. I hadn't really thought about it, but I was like, I have a little bit of a routine. I pray a lot, mostly by myself. I will pray with my family, my kids, my wife. But prayer is like a very. Yeah, it's a very intimate thing for me. [00:29:17] Speaker A: What is a lot too, like when you know, is that I'm just always curious in the specifics. Like, you know, what does that look like as far as like praying? [00:29:25] Speaker B: I mean, there's some like, I get liturgical a little bit, like I'll, I'll recite the Lord's prayer probably like 10 to 20 times a day. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Really? Oh, wow. I'm glad I asked that follow up question. [00:29:38] Speaker B: But that's like sometimes it's that loud. But most of the time I, I take it really slow and it's crazy. By the third or fourth time too, all of a sudden, something changes for me. Whether God will put someone on my heart or I'll be convicted of sin or whatever. It's lovely for me. I don't know, it probably doesn't happen to other people, but yeah, if I recite the Lord's Prayer continuously, I will recite it until something is confronted in me and then I'll adjust it, you know, so cool. But then I'm also always praying. Like I talk to the songs and to the sounds and ask God to help me. Hey, could you use a little help here? What do I do? That's just ongoing of like, I think God probably much like you invited, has invited me in to curate something to like take what could be chaos and cultivate it into a garden. And sonically I need help doing that because I'm not, you know, I've, I've worked so hard at trying to become good at my craft, but man, sometimes it's like I don't know what to do to make a sound or a song work. And then through prayer, an idea happens and I'm able to help cultivate it into something that's more beautiful. So I have spiritual direction once a month with an older, wise, kind man. That's been a life changing. I've had lots of mentors in my life, but the spiritual practice of spiritual direction with someone who's trained in it is life changing. So I highly recommend you and everyone seek that out. But you don't seek answers when you go enter into spiritual direction. Yeah, you seek just time with God and someone with you listening that can help ask you the right questions. It's really wonderful, quite mystical for me, but Yeah, I fast once a week. That's very hard for me, but I love it. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Well, I'm so curious, like, what. What makes you choose to do that? [00:31:50] Speaker B: Like, where. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Where did you get the idea? Did you see fruit before when you did it? So you keep doing it? [00:31:57] Speaker B: Yeah. When I got saved when I was 16, I felt like Jesus told me to fast. Tried to do it ever since. And there is fruit. Yeah, It's. You know how, like, there's all these distractions, and when I free my body, even though it still desires food, you know, when I free it of that need, I feel like internally it can focus on other things. That's a physical manifestation of what's happening. But spiritually, the same thing's happening where I kind of get rid of the distraction of food. And then all of a sudden, when I would be eating, someone that I love gets put on my heart and mind, and I just call them. Normally, I'd be too busy to call them, or I'm aware of my children in any way, because I'm not just stuffing my mouth with food to get back to work. I can actually be like, how are you today? Yeah, I don't know. It's. It's honestly probably one of the most important spiritual practices I do. Yeah. [00:33:03] Speaker A: That's so cool. [00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Spiritual practices, like, maybe I'm a little bit. I read my Bible, you know, not super regularly, but, like, several times a week, you know? But I'm also, like. Because I consume so much, I'll. I'll read, like, I'm reading the Apocrypha now for the first time in my life, and I'm just, like, being so blessed, and it's so great in the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible. And, like, Tobit, my goodness, dude. His prayers. Let's go. Like, I read that three weeks ago, and I've thought about it every day, multiple times since, and had conversations with the Lord about it, you know? [00:33:43] Speaker A: Wow. So, Tobit, I'm. I'm coming in ignorant on this. So is this. Tell me about what is. What is Tobit? And is it in. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it's in the scriptures. It's not in the Protestant scriptures. That's a whole other conversation of why it's not. But Tobit was this amazing dude who was in exile in Nineveh. He was a captive of the Assyrians, and he loved God. He was a Hebrew man who had a family, his son Tobias. And he gave away all of his earthly possessions to those in need. He was ridiculed. Anytime someone died, he would bury them and the Assyrians, who, like, were the worst people in the world. They made Nazi people look nice, you know, like, yeah. That's also why Jonah didn't want to go to Nineveh. It wasn't. You know, it's like, yeah, they mistreated not just the Jewish people, but everyone. They were horrible. And here he is in the middle of, like, the worst place, doing God's work, and he prays a lot. And he. The scripture of Tobit has his prayers, and that's beautiful. So what happens is Raphael, who's an angel in charge, he's considered one of the archangels with Gabriel and Michael and stuff, but Raphael hears his prayers. And a part of Raphael's jobs and Tobit is to deliver prayers to God. Not because God can't hear him without an angel, but that's just. Angels have jobs, you know? And Raphael delivers Tobit's prayers to God, and God's like, go, help him. So Raphael takes human form, and they go. He meets Tobit, and Tobit's like, if I had one, help, can you send my son Tobias to go get married a relative? And, you know, and Raphael takes him on this lovely journey, and you see the faithfulness of Tobit, Tobit's wife, and Tobit's son Tobias. And there's Wild Dude. I mean, like, it's an incredible mystical book. Yeah. [00:35:51] Speaker A: I encounter a lot of believers who are apprehensive about ambition. I feel like I don't see it as much, and not in the church, but in the church more. I feel like I see a lot of guys that are, like, really weary of ambition, and I'm just curious what your relationship to ambition is like. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Very cool question. I wrote down a response for this one because I was like, okay, I don't think I can wing this one. And this is what I would say. So. When I was younger, I had a lot of ambition. What I've come to understand about myself is I was actually chasing joy. It was a very hot, burning fuel that motivated me. It motivated me to do good, to work hard, to try to achieve. But it was always unsustainable. It was like a dirty fuel source that always burnt up and left me wanting more. You know, I have ambition to be the best basketball player, and I'd achieve my goal, and then I wouldn't be satisfied or I'd have the. You name it. Ambition would be a motivation to do good things, but it never, ever satisfied. The invitation that I kind of came to is to realize that the creative work is less about ambition and more about surrender. And there's a few teachers that I've had in my life that have helped me understand that both spiritually and professionally. One is a blind Jesuit priest named Father Larry Gillick. He's the head of the Jesuit crew in Omaha, Nebraska, at Creighton University. The dude is like sitting with Mr. Rogers. He's a saint, and it's amazing. But he said he also has never written any book. But, like, he was Henry Nouwen's mentor, you know what I mean? Like the guys, he has no ambition, like we think of ambition. But this is what he says about it. He says there is a built in loneliness in everything. Everything is meant to be a graceful disappointment. So then everything is an invitation to know that everything isn't God. I'll read that on it, recite it again, because it's in my soul. There's a built in loneliness in everything. Everything is meant to be a graceful disappointment. So that everything is an invitation to know that everything isn't God. [00:38:10] Speaker A: Amen. So good. [00:38:11] Speaker B: So, like, I cried when he said that at a silent retreat. I did in Wisconsin with a dear older brother of mine who has been kind of a mentor to me as well. Man, I cried because I'd never heard anyone say that to me before. And I felt this immense freedom and the things that were causing me disappointment and dissatisfaction. God said, no, I. I made you to be dissatisfied so that you would find your satisfaction in me, you know? [00:38:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:42] Speaker B: And that's not greedy or selfish or weird. It's actually very beautiful. [00:38:47] Speaker A: It's a gift. In. [00:38:50] Speaker B: Another way of saying it is how Wendell Berry says it in his poem Obstructions. He says it may be that when we no longer know what to do, we have come to our real work. And when we no longer know which way to go, we've become a real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings. So I'm like, once we get past ambition being our motives, we can get onto our real work. I think as. As creatives, once we stop caring about what other people think and we just create whatever goodness God's placed in us and we share it. That's what. That's what we're supposed to do. And I think ambition can, like, very. I'm more competitive than any one of my friends. They all will attest to it. Like, I want to be the best at what I do, but I do that because I find joy in it, not because I want to beat people or like Win. I do it because I take great joy and satisfaction in doing work that brings me joy and brings other people joy and ambition is. Yeah, it's just a dirty fuel source. I think so. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Good, man. That's so good. That first one you read getting me a little teary eyed. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Sit with that forever. [00:40:09] Speaker A: I grew up in a family, a lot of goal setting. Definitely an ambitious person. I still am too. I guess it depends on how you define ambition. But I felt like I found that emptiness and that loneliness in it. And I felt like that became clear. But I feel like maybe what I did was be like, no more goals, no more ambition. And sort of it became a passive almost a checking out of it. But obviously that didn't satisfy either, you know, like just not getting stuff right. So I'm kind of wondering what is the right fuel source? Like, what do you feel like it. And some. Maybe you said it was. It brings you joy, but yeah, I'm curious. What do you feel like is the right call to put into the drain, if you will? [00:40:56] Speaker B: So the short answer is I don't know. But I do think that it tends to be an invitation. It tends to be. It always tends to be this like, invitation to go explore a new creative idea, a sonic landscape, an emotional landscape within a song. It's always like, I feel like this, like, hey, come check this out. Like, that's the fuel. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:24] Speaker B: It's not, hey, look at me. I want to achieve. It has nothing. It's always. It doesn't originate in me, I guess, is what I'm trying to say, the fuel source. And I think that you can. If you correlate it, maybe it's a bad correlation. But faith, you know, a lot of people say, just have more faith. I don't. I don't think you can. I think faith comes from God and we receive it and we return it to him, you know. And I think that whatever fuel that I'm excited about, I want to be willing to receive it and give it and just respond to it. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Felt like in my own life, there's. While I chose, okay, I won't do any of this stuff, then I won't. I felt like there was still clearly this. When you would see some type of artwork or you would see a part of something that could be something. It reminds me of wanting to show somebody a beautiful sunset or something where you're like, I just gotta. I wanna share this with somebody, you know, and it needs to be put together a little bit first before I do share it. But it's like that urge never went away. And I also feel like in God's grace, I feel like as I really did seek him more and just. Just in life in general, not really related to art. And I felt like there was a time when he was like, I want you to do this and be like, well, that's the thing. That was my idol. Are you sure? And he's like, I want you to do this. You know, but that's cool. I love hearing. Hearing your answer for that. [00:42:49] Speaker B: But I think like, it's all different semantics too, you know, Like Michael Jordan. I love sports. I do a lot. I do sports too. I still fly fish and play softball on a team. And that is a. I need that, you know, in my life. But it's fun to compete against people. [00:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Not. You know what I mean? Like, that can be motivation, but it's not to like destroy them. It's just. It's fun to compete. Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay. I'm not trying to over spiritualize the fuel sense. I'm just like, whatever gets me up in the morning and into the studio. Like, I just don't think it all. It comes for me, I guess, is what I'm saying. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Is there a project or maybe more specifically like even an artist that you're like, oh, I would love to work with this person. Or I would love to work on a project that is like, totally. [00:43:41] Speaker B: I mean, I mean, there's too many to count. But it. But it. But I'm open to be surprised. You know what I mean? Like, I don't have like a weird. I'm unorthodox in that I've never marketed. I mean, I have a website, but like, I just get invited to do things and I feel very fortunate and blessed to do that. But it's like I. There's no rhyme or reason or how I still have a job, you know. And so three. Three years ago, I really wanted to work with some emo bands and I started working with emo bands and it was so much fun, you know, but it all just happens through. Yeah. People are like, can you help me? And I'm like, if I can help you, I want to help you. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker B: But unfortunately, yeah. I mean, I could say yes. I'd like to work with Radiohead and Tommy Oreck and. Or like Sunny Day Real Estate or like Heroes of Mine, you know, there's a whole beautiful British scene happening in poetry and music. Alabaster de plume. I'd love to record with him and see how he writes his poetry and saxophone jazz music. Yeah, I have too many of those to name. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Totally. It's fun to hear something, though. That's cool. Lastly, is there any resources or books, podcasts, video, anything that's like, oh, this. I feel like for someone who feels kind of called to create date, you know, that you would recommend. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've had, like, a lifelong love of poetry, and I. I write it. I'm not very good at it, but I. It's a wonderful practice, but poems are very powerful things. They're. They're less and less popular in our culture, you know, but, man, you go back a hundred plus years and these are the things that, like, are so powerful. They were almost seen as weapons, you know, mastery over language and human expression. And so I find that poetry has been my biggest inspiration for my life and art as far as, like, consumable medium. Yeah. So with that said, I could name several Rilke, Reina Maria Rilke's Book of Hours. Also translated love poems to God. Is life changing. You could sit in one of those poems for a year. They're all based on visitations he had with God. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Wow. [00:46:06] Speaker B: He went and hung out with these Eastern Orthodox priests. God started visiting him, and he didn't know what to do, and so he just wrote it down, which is a great, great first step. You know, Tagore is a beautiful Benkales poet, playwright, songwriter is. Gitanjali is like, that'll change your life. He has a collection called I Heard God Laughing that did. The Sufis knew. What's up, man? T.S. eliot, four quartets. Incredible mastery of the human language, but with, like, a longing of connectedness to God and other humans. [00:46:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:46] Speaker B: David White I had the privilege of meeting. He's one of my favorite poet philosophers. He's alive right now. He's Irish. He lives in, like, Pacific Northwest. But his book Constellations will change your life, I think. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Cool. [00:47:06] Speaker B: Renata Wood is a poet who was a young girl left that escaped. Her family didn't want to be Nazis, and so they fled Germany. And she only wrote two things in her life, and one of them is called the patience of ice. [00:47:22] Speaker A: The patience of what? [00:47:24] Speaker B: Ice. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Ice. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah. She's changed my life. She passed recently. Aldo Leopold, the Sound County Almanac. That's like, if you want to inspire, to be aware and, like, have your eyes open to everything. That dude can write three pages of field mice, and I'm just, like, crying. He says he's a naturalist, and we have many people think that we have him to think for our national parks. He died a saint, in my opinion. His neighbor had a field fire, like a prairie fire, and he went to help his neighbor and he died in it. Wendell Berry, the piece of Wild Things Mark Nepo reduced to joy. There's so many. But like, I think poetry has been my main encouragement of my art and in my creative life because one line will change my life. It'll confront me and yell at me or it'll sing to me, you know? [00:48:27] Speaker A: So cool. [00:48:28] Speaker B: It doesn't hide behind music. It's just. Yeah, wonderful. [00:48:32] Speaker A: That's really cool. Yeah, that's some great recommendations. I'm gonna google these and then like make a links to this in the show notes for everybody. So that's cool. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I could do this for another hour, so I very much enjoyed it. Is it cool if I kind of just pray us out? Just say a quick prayer for you. [00:48:51] Speaker B: Go for it, man. [00:48:52] Speaker A: Close you out. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Appreciate it. [00:48:55] Speaker A: Lord, I thank you that you are at work. Lord, I thank you for the calling you've been put on Dave's life and just this being present and listening and even from the listening, from the poetry to listening to your spirit, to listening to other people, Father. Lord, I just thank you that you're at work in him. I pray you'd bless him, his family, Lord. I pray that you would just continue, Lord, just to bless him with eyes to see you like he already does. And for his whole family, Father, that. That his heart could be ministry. It is, Lord, and that it would continue to be. And just thank you for the time. Thank you for him sharing this with everybody, Lord. So just. Just bless him and thank you, Lord Jesus name. Amen. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Nathan.