CRAFT | Corey Mandell | Screenwriting

[00:00:01] Speaker A: One of the really common questions we talk about in this series, Art and Faith, is why do some of the faith driven work feel sometimes not as good or a bit fake? And I would say the answer we kind of keep hearing coming back to is just really craft, just getting really good at your craft. You have to learn the craft. You have to put in the 10,000 hours and learn and grow. When it comes to film in the last five years we've actually seen like great progress. We've seen production quality go up and camera work and you know, in acting, the area I feel that is most primed for the growth and needs it the most within film is the craft of writing. There's like, I feel like there's no getting lucky in writing in my opinion. It kind of requires the 10,000 hours and a lot of that is alone. And so today is our very first craft episode focused on writing. So we'll probably only do this like every say 10 episodes or so, but we will feature an expert in a specific craft. So this is not like a faith episode. But the goal of Prodigal, even to begin with, is to empower artists of faith to create, create honest and beautiful work. And there are many great teachers who've even helped me grow along the way. When I moved to la, I had written some, but directing and shooting is kind of what I knew. What I came to see, at least for the path I wanted to do, is that I need to learn to write, even, even if it's just to help with rewrites. I think like every director, probably producer should, should learn it as well. And of course I had like read the books and watched all the videos. There were only a few things I would say in like the past 10 to 15 years that noticeably helped me in writing. And one of them was this kind of some famous writer writing instructor named Corey Mandel. So he is an award winning screenwriter. He has written projects. Ridley Scott, Harrison Ford, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Julia Roberts. It goes on and on. Universal, Disney, but also on the other side of it, his students and clients have sold scripts A24 Paramount, HBO, Netflix, Amazon, Sony, just I could go on and on. All Quiet on the Western Front, the newest one. So it won four Oscars and seven baftas and one of which was for writing. [00:02:01] Speaker B: So since working with Corrie, we have been Oscar nominated, we've won a bafta. All Quiet on the Western Front. Edward Burger, Leslie Patterson. I just don't think these types of classes, this type of teacher comes along that often. So for us has Been an absolute game changer. Yeah. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Me and Caleb both separately took his class and didn't even know it. And I brought him on and Caleb was like, oh, I took his class and was so good. And even after we finished the session later on, we end up getting to like, hang out and spend time together and just couldn't be a nicer guy and someone who really chooses people over, like, preconceived ideas. So something I appreciated and enjoyed hanging out with him. So anyway, without further ado, let's chat writing with Corey Mandel. When I was trying to learn how to write, I remember writing scripts and finally writing something and feeling good about it and then giving it to somebody and then they'd be like, what is. What are you trying to say? Like, what is this about? And I'm like, how? It's so obvious. And I remember hearing you just like on another podcast, like years ago, we're Talking like over 15 years ago, probably, and you're like, yeah, if people knew how depressing it was to read without understanding context and understanding it, like how people knew, how often people did not understand what they were writing, you know, it would be pretty depressing. [00:03:18] Speaker B: I think that's how I felt. I think every writer hopefully goes through that starting out. I did. And it was. Oh, I was. First of all, I was in denial for like three weeks. I just figured my friends were idiots and I kept trying to find new friends who could, you know. And then at some point then I just. I don't know, I was just like, I'm going to law school. Like, it was really hard for me. I think I took it harder than most writers. But yeah, it's a rite of passage. And unfortunately, a lot of writers don't go through that. And so they just keep writing flawed scripts and not knowing why. [00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I heard a story about a showrunner who he would take coffee with any writer if they had completed three scripts because he knew that if they could go through that hell three times, that they had some drive, some staying power. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah, you always worry about the writer that, like, oh, I got to get an agent, I got to sell the script. It's amazing. First and only script I wrote. It's like, we've all been there. I thought my. I mean, I was practicing my Academy Award speech after my first draft that I literally wrote in three days in Vegas. The very first time I wrote a script. Well, a little bit of context is I took an undergraduate playwriting class and I wrote a one act play in overnight and it got Produced, and it won awards at the, you know, at the UCLA student thing. But, you know, it went to my head. So I was figuring, well, if I could do that In a night 40 pages, I could do a screenplay in three. So I drove to Vegas, coming up with the story. I didn't even have a story, and checked in a circus, circus, all I could afford. And I wrote a script in three days. And on the way home, I kid you not, I was practicing my Academy Awards speech. [00:04:53] Speaker C: There is a place for some of that to keep us encouraged and moving through the hardship. [00:04:58] Speaker B: I think. I think that. I think that it's really helpful to have that attitude in the beginning. You'll write a couple scripts, and then you need, hopefully, someone to give you a reality check. And hopefully they do it in a loving, kind way. They probably don't. And then you get to deal with that damage for the rest of your life. [00:05:17] Speaker C: Do you have any. Do you have any advice on what a loving, kind approach is to telling someone the truth about maybe the flaws in their work? Do you have any advice on how to sort of do that? Be loving and kind in the way that you give notes to someone, particularly addressing, like, flaws in the script? [00:05:31] Speaker B: I do, and it's something that I had to learn, and it's something that's really. You know, I work with so many writers. I think I've figured out at least a way that works for me. So the way that works for me is I read. I read someone's script, and I just read it pretty quickly and just experience it. You know, where am I interested? Where am I bored, where am I confused, where am I scared, where am I laughing, whatever. And then I'll go back a second time and read it a little slower to figure out why I was having the experiences I was having, and really focus on the movie that plays in my head or the TV show that plays in my head. Character, story. Then when I meet with the writer, I don't share that. I ask them questions, why did you write this? Why is this so important to you? And I'm really looking for, like, what, you know, at some point, they were terribly excited about a character, a story, theme, something. And I want to know what that was. And then I'll start asking them, you know, describe the main character. And I'm trying to get. I'm really trying to see and feel the character, the characters, the main characters, the way they do. And then, you know, walk me through the story. And what I'm really trying to do is experience it. The way they experience it. And. And, you know, I've been doing this for, like, 12 years, and I've never yet had an. I never yet. I've had a situation where when I understand what they were going for and I can understand and see. Feel the characters and stories they do, I've always thought. Felt like, oh, that's. That's worth. [00:06:47] Speaker C: That's. [00:06:48] Speaker B: That's a story worth telling. There's something really interesting. I mean, yeah, maybe it needs a little bit of an escalation. Maybe it needs a little stronger of a concept, but it's always interesting. And then I always say, well, usually say, I think that what you intended and what you're experiencing more interesting than I think what we are getting when we read your script. And I want to help you see why. So that you can rewrite your script. So that you can share everything that you love, the characters, the idea, the story, whatever, with us. I want to help you get better at sharing it. That's not how it was said to me back as a young writer, But I think what I did is, over time, I'm like, well, how do I wish it was said to me? [00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so what would you. That was great. What would you say? Jumping in early on for them. You know, this is someone who's newer. Like, what is their first step? You know, I always. You know, I was telling Caleb that I'm like, all these people talk to me about writing, and I'm always like, well, step one, take Corey's class. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that is. That's step one. [00:07:47] Speaker C: Yeah. So, but if you can tell us. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Step two is tell everyone else to take Corey's class. And then I think, so if we're talking like, newbie, yeah, here's what I would do. This is the advice I would give. I would say, happiness equals reality divided by expectations. So let's set expectations. There's a lot of stories out there about writers who. Their very first script was great and amazing and sold and got made. I can tell you for a fact, not one of them is true. I used to have a story about that for myself. It's a good story to tell because the industry is looking for natural talent. They're looking for someone who can just sit down and automatically do this. But the truth is, it takes people usually three to seven scripts to really get to where they need to get to. So if that doesn't sound appealing to you, you might want to rethink things. And then I would say, let's say they say, all right, I'm down for that. What do I do? I'd say sit down and write a script and just tell yourself you're not gonna show it to anyone. And it doesn't have to follow any rules or genre. It doesn't have to be properly formatted. And you're gonna write it really fast. See if you can write it in a way where you're not judging it and you're not editing it. And what I want you to navigate towards, if possible, is just enjoying, just. Just enjoying what you're writing. And what you're writing can be internally inconsistent. Like you're writing something and it's about a woman and she's grieving the loss of her mother. And then at some point you're writing and suddenly the mother's alive and she. And, and, and you're. But you're really enjoying the relationship and you don't have to wait a minute. She was dead. How do I bring her? You, you just let it go because it's just for you and, you know, things. If, if I was working with that writer, there'd be things I'd be curious about, like, were you able to enjoy the writing? Because often the answer is no. So this is a script with, you know, no expectations. It's not. It's just a fun, quick draft that you're writing. It's like, if I, like, thought I might be interested in working hard to learn how to be a magician, and someone's like, well, here's a trick. You're not going to make any money off this, but just go around with friends and just do it. Do you like it? Do you like doing magic? Because if you really don't like doing it, maybe you, you like the idea of being a magician, but you don't actually want to be a magician. So this is just like throwing in and just practicing if you have fun doing it. And in doing it, you can probably maybe find your voice in terms of at least, like, what you're interested in writing. Because I might share with them the mistake I made, which is when I was starting out, I loved watching kind of complex thrillers, sci fi thrillers. So that's what I wrote. And, and I, you know, sold the pitch to really Scott and writing. And at some point I realized I love watching those movies. I really don't love writing those movies. I'd much rather be writing something else. And I was dumb enough to, you know, to my agent, I'm like, you keep getting me these jobs that are like sci fi or kind of complex thrillers. And I appreciate that. Not really what I'll be writing. Can you get me these kind of jobs? And she very nicely said, no. She's like, no. Like the industry sees you this way. This is your career. If you want to be doing that, why didn't you write that script? And it's like, oh, because I wasn't smart. So, like, in me and I've worked with writers, they're like, I don't even know what I want to write. You don't have to write a whole script. Write like a little 15 page, like it was a short movie, a comedy, write a thriller. Because sometimes people are really surprised by what they like writing and what they don't like writing. And just get it out there and just play and see what that experience is like. I think that's step one to see what you like, what you don't like. What is the experience of writing where you might be struggling? Because here's the thing, once you go to the next level where you're trying to learn and eventually be able to write a script that other people are going to be totally into, and then the next level where you have to make it interesting to the gatekeepers, you know, the producers, because that's a much higher level. It's just going to get harder and harder and more and more stressful. Let's learn. Let's learn what we can learn. When it's. You don't have all that other pressure on you because that's just going to make it harder. Because you can learn a lot at this sort of just play level. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:59] Speaker B: And then I would say, well, I'll. I'll leave it at that. [00:12:01] Speaker A: I remember you had an exercise that was like, do all of this. All of these things were like, well, that's a lot. You're like. And do it in like one page or two pages or something like that. And we're like, what? And half now I'm like, wow, you've now dramatically sped up the process of which we can learn at by trying to accomplish this versus most people try to do that in 90 pages the first time. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So as you know, and just to make clear, everyone knows I'm talking about starting out and playing and fun. And that's not the workshop. So the workshop that I teach is the Professional Screenwriting Achievement Workshop. So it's for people who want to be professionals. I have complete newbies and I have literally showrunners and produce feature writers take it. But it's not designed for fun and for play. It's for there are certain skill sets that you need to learn and master. Some of them just aren't taught anywhere else. Let's teach them. And what I always tell people, and I'm sure you heard me say this is, it's not my objective that this is going to be the most fun class you ever took. It's going to be the class that changes your life as a writer. At least that's, that's my goal. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:13:05] Speaker C: I can say you achieved that goal with me, at least as a student. You know, when I took your course, I had already had a comic writing career, Batman, Ice Age, Peanuts, and I had had one indie film that I co wrote that got made an Asian action movie. And it was really hard to find places where I could learn the tool sets that I needed to go further because most so much of it is aimed towards so much writing instructions aimed towards beginning writers. And then a friend of mine recommended your class and I got into it and found out There was already two people of the 12 people I already knew two of them from other contexts. And, and you were able to teach me tools that, that I didn't have yet that could improve work even in a sort of, even for someone who had a career of some sort writing. [00:13:52] Speaker B: You know, thank you. I mean, thank you. I've worked really hard to get to that place for the class. And I had a lot of help early on from my first several generations of writers who kept, hey, this isn't really working. What about this? Or. And so I had a lot of help along the way, but thank you. [00:14:09] Speaker C: But that does raises a question for me because I think you've probably seen more in progress or, or aspiring careers than almost any human on the planet. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:18] Speaker C: And I'm wondering if, you know, you've noticed patterns, are there certain things that younger writers tend to sort of wreck their boat on versus writers who already into a career, are there. Are they getting caught up on different Rocky Shoals? [00:14:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:37] Speaker C: So would you maybe give us an example of each? [00:14:41] Speaker B: Well, and we could, we could spend an hour on either of those questions. And brevity, as you know, isn't always my best suit, but I'll try. So in terms of newer writers, I would say. Okay, so the two main things that hold writers back, one is as we talked about, they, when they write a script, they see the character a certain way, they see a story a certain way, they feel it a certain way. It's almost like they've watched that movie or TV show and when they give it to people for notes or feedback. They assume the other person is seeing and experiencing the same. So if someone is talking about something that they had an issue with or where they were bored or something that didn't make sense. The thing is the writer thinks they saw the TV show that I see when I wrote it and read it and it's not working for them. But that's not the case. As we've already talked about. Writers would be shocked sometimes to realize how people are seeing something completely different. So all of those notes and feedback are completely unhelpful and often destructive because you're. It's almost, this is crazy, but it's almost like you, you have a movie. Nathan has made this movie. He's way too smart to do this. But Nathan's or, or Caleb, you've made this movie and you're going to do a screening for people you trust to watch it and then give you notes. But somehow there's a mix up and the people go to a different theater and they see a different movie that for some weird reason has your character names and it's set in the same city. So no one actually realizes they saw a different movie. And now they're giving you notes on that movie and now you're going to go back and think about changing and editing your film based on their notes of a different movie. That's not going to end well. Right? So that's number one. And I don't know when this podcast is going to drop, but I'm doing a big change refresh on my website. But if you let me know when it's going to drop, I'll keep this up till then. On my website right now, corymandel.net there's a tab that says free stuff. And one of the free stuff is script testing questions. Questions that writers could use to test their script with people to see what other people are experiencing in the characters. Biggest, biggest mistake that newer writers make is they don't realize this gap between what they are intending and what people are seeing. And so they can work really hard and write scripts and always get feedback and rewrite scripts and they're going to feel like it's an endless whack a mole game that, you know, every time they fix something and they're, they're spinning their wheels and they're wasting a lot of time energy they don't get back. So that, that'll be free. I'll. And I'll leave it up until after this drops the second thing, which we could spend A lot of time on, but I won't, because I'll put that up on the free thing too, is something you guys both know, which is creative integration. I'll just do a real quick overview because it's not taught anywhere else, as far as I know. And it was a game of the writers I've worked with, and we now have, literally over 3,000 of them have careers in one fashion or another. They'll all say that this was the main thing, creative integration. And so the quick overview is that there are writers who tend to work from a conceptual place, and they're really good with stories and concepts and having interesting things happen, but they're not very good at seeing. I'm sorry, not very good at characters or dialogue or, like, being able to create emotional resonance. And then there's other writers that are intuitive writers who are great with characters, great with emotional resonance, but they really struggle with structure and scene composition and concept. The think of a tennis player, and they're really good with their forehand, but they're weak with their backhand. So when they compete, they're going to try to do as much forehand as possible and hide their backhand. And when people write, they want to write the best script possible. So knowingly or unknowingly, they play to their strengths beforehand and they hide their weaknesses. And what that means, over time, their strengths get stronger and their weaknesses get weaker. That's why the popular adage of the more you write, the better you'll get. You can file that, you know, with Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy. Because the reality is, yeah, if you're just starting out, you will get better as you write, if you're getting good feedback, because we all make, you know, real beginner mistakes at the end without realizing it. And you'll be able to clean that up. So your writing will improve to some point, and then after about three scripts, it'll just plateau because your strengths get stronger and your weaknesses keep getting weaker. And the more someone writes like that, the taller the pile of similarly flawed scripts. So what I do when I work with writers, and we do this, start this work in the workshop, is teach people how to tie your. Your strong hand behind your back and work from your weak hand. And that is the single hardest thing for writers to do or. Or be willing to do because they have a fear that it's sometimes irrational, sometimes it's rational, which is, well, if I play with my backhand, I'm going to be terrible. The writing's gonna be embarrassing, it's gonna Be bad. And then I say, let's say that's true. It's not. You feel it's true. It might be true, it might not be true, but let's say it's true. So what, you're not going to show this to anyone in the industry? We're going to train you so your weakness is as strong as your strength. And then integration is showing how to bring them together so you can write scripts with amazing characters and amazing stories. You know, the scripts everyone's looking for, the scripts that you really need to be consistently writing to have a career or get something made. And so it doesn't matter if what you're writing is not as strong as normal. And if you haven't gone through the process and you're listening to this or watching this, however you are consuming this, you might think, oh, well, I don't see why that would be so hard. It's really hard. It was really hard for me. And it's really hard for writers to let go of their strengths and work from their weakness. And I would say some of the writers that come to me, they just. They will just go all in and do that. Absolutely commit to it. Most writers will fight it for a long time and kind of struggle, but eventually get there. And some writers just won't ever do it. Who've gone on to have the most success usually come from that first category or sometimes the second category. So those two things, which I don't think are taught other places, but they should. Those two things, I think, are the main rocks that writers are crashing into. I find it really sad because, you know, we're talking often really smart, creative people who have something to say, something to share with the world, and they're sacrificing, you know, all the time they're writing like, that's time, energy. They could be working a job or a second job or building their business or relationships or work, whatever. I mean, they're sacrificing. There's very few people I know who wake up in the morning and go, I got so much free time. How am I going to fill it? So I just. Dedication matters. But you got to be doing the right practice. You got to be doing dedicated practice. The exciting thing is when you learn how to do it or have someone teach you how to do it, you can actually get to where you want to get to much faster than keep practicing your good habits and your bad habits. That's not going to get you there. [00:21:18] Speaker A: I'm jumping in right here to talk about the importance of writing and the stories. I really do feel like that is the next level factor in some of these stories. And the goal of Prodigal is to empower artists of faith to create honest and beautiful work. So one of the things I found in talking to actually really talented working writers who do love the Lord, I found that here in Hollywood and Nashville and other places and like, oh, I have the story I would love to tell, but it's, it's little too dark at moments for the faith based world at least as it is. And then it's like it's too like faith influenced for a lot of the mainstream space. And they're like, I would write it, there's just no demand for it. And I think we can change that. And even at the origin ideas of Prodigal, the nonprofit, you know, we put on this art and faith podcast was to do this, which is let's help create the demand for these types of scripts and let's help curate them and find them and get them seen. So we're going to change the demand issue by doing the world's biggest screenwriting prize contest in history. So we're going to do this with these types of stories. Only ran it with script contest and the winner gets $100,000, no strings attached. They don't have to make it through us or anything like that. It's just, it's a gift. And this will help create the demand obviously and help curate these scripts and for even for other people to find them and make them. And so we're just kind of publicly launching this and it's going to take time to raise that 100k. But I've already had donors saying like, hey, I'll give you your last 10k or I want to donate to this kind of on a monthly basis. So 100% of the prize money will go to the writer. We take nothing. So if you care about this kind of thing and these types of stories and believe in what God wants to do in that space in the description there is a link to Prodigal la donate and you just choose the Prodigal script prize option. And so Prodigal is a, a non profit, a 5013c. So all donations are tax write off. So anyway, I'll keep you updated as money comes in, but just something I'm excited for. And so anyway, let's jump back in. Yeah, I think that's probably one of the most key important things I feel like I took away from your classes and from even this. I think what really hooked Me, the very first time is hearing this idea, conceptual writer versus intuitive writer and being like, that's exactly it. Like, I have heard no one say this before and that's exactly what I'm struggling with. So that's kind of what brought me to it. So I. Yeah. Anyone listening? I think that's a super important thing. [00:23:31] Speaker B: And if you want more information, I'll. I'll leave it up at least after this is because that was a real quick overview and there'll be. It'll go a little bit more detail and nuance. It's corymandel.net so I don't forget later and just go to the free. The free stuff tab, which is always the best tab. [00:23:46] Speaker A: We'll link to it. [00:23:47] Speaker C: And if you're like me, then you'll. Once you have that free hit, you'll be. But hooked in a good way because there's a lot of ways for you to spend your money that are not going to help you become a better writer, you know, and being able to learn from someone who has had a career is also a rarity, you know. But, you know, as storytellers or as people who want to be storytellers, I find that we're also very good at telling ourselves stories about how things are going to go, like once I've written this script or whatever. [00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:15] Speaker C: And so I just want to say that that's a real place you will face fear when you start using your backhand. It will be scary and it doesn't fit into your story of who you are as a writer and where you're going and, and just that it's okay to be scared. [00:24:28] Speaker B: It's. [00:24:29] Speaker C: You could just put that into your script later. The fear. [00:24:31] Speaker B: But yeah, I agree. I mean, fears are, I would say there's a. I think it's a Woody Allen joke, but somebody's like, is sex dirty? And he said, only if you do it right. And I think, you know, is there fear in writing. I'd say only if you're doing it right. I mean, I know Academy Award winning writers, I know big showrunners, they're scared. You know, it was a really important moment for me. I was in film school and I was very insecure and I didn't think I could write. And I took a class and William Goldman came in and for anyone listening who's like really young, look him up. William Goldman, one of the most amazing writers of all time. Novelist, screenwriter. And he's like one of my all time heroes. And so he came to the class and so that was just exciting. And, you know, he's won multiple Academy Awards. He's at that time, he's probably the greatest living screenwriter. And he talked. Someone was asking, like, what's your writing process? Like, what's your. What's a day like for you? He goes, pretty much the same. You know, I wake up and I got a schedule to go write, but I don't want to go into that room because I get nauseous, because I know this is the day everyone's going to realize I don't know what I'm doing. I think whatever I'm going to write is going to be terrible. So I do everything I can to procrastinate until finally I have no choice but to just drag myself into the room and lock the door and start writing. And that was so important for me to hear that, because I was like, oh, I could do that. Like, that day. Like, yes, that's me, you know? Cause I always thought, because that was how I was feeling, I probably wasn't gonna make it. And I always thought people like William Goldman or the Coen brothers or Tina Fey, I just thought they just kind of wake up and roll in and how fun. And then it's brilliant. You know, that's what I thought. And I've gotten to meet almost all my heroes, and it's not true for any of them. And what I've learned, Caleb, is they have the same fear and the same doubts that we all do. What's different about the most successful writers is they have a different relationship to those fears and those. And they. And it's what you said. And I. I don't know if you were being somewhat playful or serious, but. But they use that to fuel their writing. And, you know, all writing. All writing is about pain. Without pain, it's not funny. And without pain, it's not dramatic. And so if a writer had no pain, how could they write? And that's not to say I'm not saying that writing is inherently painful. For most writers, once they get writing, they. They. You know, they warm up and they enjoy it. You know, it's like, I don't know how you guys are, but, like, I don't love exercise. So, like, often I'm like, I don't want to go do the elliptical, and I have all these excuses, and I drag myself in, and I'm like, maybe I'll do three minutes, and. And then. But once I start, I start to like it, and. And I actually enjoy, or at least don't hate doing It. So I just wanted to be clear. I'm not saying that writing is a lifetime of pain. I'm just saying there's going to be some resistance, some fear, some anxiety. I think the mistake that writers make is they just try to deny that. And one of the reasons, one of the ways they deny it is they just say, I'm a great writer and what I'm writing is great and I don't have to be afraid because I'm just amazing. As opposed to, don't run away from the fears. Go into them and say it's all writers feel this. What am I going to do about it? What am I going to do with it? [00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:27:36] Speaker C: After I can say that. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead. [00:27:38] Speaker A: No, no, you go. [00:27:41] Speaker B: That. [00:27:42] Speaker C: For me, the first two sentences are harder than the rest of the day of writing. So after two sentences I actually, I stand up and I say out loud, today was a success because I know it's downhill from there. Even if I write for four more hours, it's downhill from that. Starting that overcoming all of those fears and hesitations and resistances. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Do you write on a keyboard? Yes. Do you want two hacks? [00:28:05] Speaker C: Yes. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Okay. First hack, when you're done, when you're winding up for the day and you're, you feel good, you've got a lot of work done, maybe you're getting a little like tired or maybe even. No, you just have to stop. Before you stop, write on paper and pen the first two sentences of the next work day and put it like somewhere and forget about it. And then when you come the next day, you fire it up. All you gotta do is transcribe those two lines and you've written your first two sentences. [00:28:30] Speaker C: That's amazing. I've never thought about doing it the day before I where, where I started. Focus, focusing on two sentences is there's this famous quote from Somerset Maugham that says, I only write when I'm inspired. Luckily, I'm inspired every morning at 9am, which is very clever, but not really how writing works. [00:28:45] Speaker B: Agreed? [00:28:46] Speaker C: Agreed. And then years later, in another book, I found the Secret. And that is he would get up at 8, have breakfast, take a bath, and in the bath he would compose his first two sentences in his head so that when he sat down at 9, he could just go. And so that sort of got me focused on the two sentences. But I love that hack because I still have always thought of them as same day sentences. [00:29:06] Speaker B: But the idea of, by the way, that's another hack and maybe try them both and May and maybe that the. One of the hacks works better than the. I think it's always good to have multiple hacks. Multiple. Like break the glass. I'll give one more which is one of my favorites which is, you know, I do, I, I do a lot of process coaching. So I, I get writers who are procrastinating, all of that. So then it's like, okay, how do you procrastinate? What do you do when you're procrastinating and you know, you get certain and clean the kitchen, play video games. One of them, it was very honestly I smoke a lot of pot. You know, people have their. So what I teach people is okay, when you're procrastinating, wait. What I want to do is change what you do when you procrastinate. So when you are don't want to write your script, what I want you to do is get to the keyboard and I want you to write something that you want to write a letter to someone. I had someone like they weren't a standup but they'd write standup jokes because they always are. You could write like a really angry letter to someone you're never going to send or you could write an essay like about what's going on in politics and you know, like this is my essay to the whatever paper you, whatever you just write. Or you could just write, you know, all work and no play makes Caleb a dull boy over and over again. But the thing is you got to write something you want to be right. And what people find is like they start getting into this writing flow and now they're writing so it's not that hard to suddenly slip into their script. So change your. Change what you do to procrastinate to writing and you're 70% of the way there. And not only that, you're writing something you really want to be writing. So that's good. You're ready. Not only you're writing, but you're writing from the energy that you want to be writing your scripts from. [00:30:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Something I used to say and I don't think people realize that it isn't a joke was that 90% of writing is tricking yourself into getting started. And because it's energy wise, I think I spend most of it there on those first two sentences every day. [00:30:54] Speaker A: I think you're tapping into something too about the procrastination. I think like for me, you know, so I'm coming from a directing, cinematography background. Started really young. I'm like been blessed. So like I'm doing commercials, like, cool kid music videos, Nike commercials. You know, so often I am like. My taste is like, oh, it's been approved by outside things. So then now I sit down to write as a new writer. And my taste is like, that's not good. And I'm like, okay, no, that's not good. That line's not good. What should the name be? The name should be important. And then I'm like thinking about names forever, Googling names and meanings of names. And there's just all this stuff evaluating going on, and it's just like zero progress. And so it's like, how can you sit at a page for three hours and write a sentence maybe? And I don't think I had ever heard anyone really give me good input on how to deal with that. And there's a quote that you've said before, which I think only once you've felt the pain do you receive this quote and be like and see the value. But you said, do not create and evaluate at the same time. And the idea that those can even be separate is kind of a new thought for, like, for me and what I was used to making. Can you talk into that a little bit, like, what that means? [00:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, when I was in film school, they said, yeah, you can't create and evaluate at the same time. And like a lot of things they said in film school, that is just incredibly wrong. You can. And I know because I used to do it a lot. It's a bad idea. And here's why. Here's why it's a bad idea. Because no one ever says. I never heard anyone say why it's a bad idea. Here's why. I believe in and seen in myself and in others. It's a bad idea if you are creating and evaluating at the same time. You're doing neither to your best ability. You're not creating to the best of your ability and you're not evaluating to the best of your ability. So it's a lose, lose situation. So, yeah, you know, I can really relate to what you're talking about, Nathan, because I. In many ways, I was very fortunate. I was in film school. I sold a pitch to Ridley Scott. And then I worked as a studio writer for 11 years for all the big boys and girls. There's a downside. Not that anyone will ever feel sorry for me, nor should they. But the downside was, like, you almost right out of the gate. I had to write something that was what other people wanted. And it had to hit that mark. And I Never really had the opportunity to just write for myself at first. Again, no one feels sorry for me because I sold the pitch to Ridley Scott. I was very fortunate and I was very blessed. But later on when I wanted to try to write a spec script, I was struggling with what you were struggling with. I just, I was like, there's studio Corey person inside me that's thinking about the industry and all these things that Ridley Scott or, you know, I don't want to start name dropping, but these other people would be right. So here's a couple of things you might want to try if you haven't already done it. So the first thing is think of. And maybe you know the answer or maybe just think about it, but like think of something that is artistic that you're really not good at, but you like doing it anyway. Like for me, I don't know if it's cause I'm dyslexic, but like, can't draw. Back in the day. I think you two are old enough to remember that game Pictionary, right? I'm. You always want me on your team and I am so competitive. Not in Pictionary because like, I'll literally draw something and then, you know, it's a typewriter. And they're like, that doesn't look at all like a typewriter. I'm like, I couldn't agree more. Like, I just can't draw. So I start my sessions. I got like a really professional sketchbook and I got like, you know, color, you know, I got. I got a nice little setup and I draw. I draw. And it's so fun and it's so liberating because I'm not going to make a career. I'm not going to show it to anyone. If my wife comes in, I'll let her look at it. But I'm not like posting it on Instagram and I suck at it. And that takes. That makes it fun. It just makes it fun to do it. I just do it. Like, I enjoy it. I don't know what it is at the end, but I enjoy the process and I'm not judging it because there's nothing. Find something maybe artistic might be hard because you're probably good at most things, but you find something that you can do okay, and do that. I would, I would do that for like 15 or 20 minutes. Always listening to certain music that would. There's certain music softens me up. Like when I listen to female like cowboy junkies or it just. It kind of gets me out of my ego. Control mind and kind of gets me a little emotional. I listen, but I always listen to the same songs. I really believe in ritual and I do my drawings. So that gets me into a space. And when I'm going to write, I don't write in final draft because the. The. The muscle memory is final draft is industry. Real writing. Well, I might do it paper and pen, but I can't read my writing. So I would just do dialogue. And this is maybe silly, but that was. That's why I did it. I would say, I'm writing a tomato. I wouldn't call it a first draft or a rough draft or any draft or even a vomit Dr. Because that was sense memory of what that was. But a tomato, to me, I think the reason I picked it is because it's silly. It makes no sense. In the beginning, I say, I'm gonna go write my tomato. People are like, what? You can't help but laugh, like, what is a tomato? And I'm like, it's a tomato. It is what it is, you know, And I would laugh. And a tomato, you don't show anyone. And a tomato is just what you wanna write. It's just the movie you wanted to see. You know, like when you're directing for someone and someone's paying you a lot of money, you got to do what they want. You got to make their brand and all that. You got all these things you got to do. I'm sure there's times where you're like, oh, it would be so fun if we could do it this way. But, you know, you can't. You're getting paid a lot of money. You have to deliver something. This is the opportunity. The tomato is just to write whatever it is you want to write. And what I would do is if that voice started coming into my head of like, wait a minute. This, you know, judging it, like, on that other parameter, I stop, take a short walk, do five more minutes of drawing, and then go back. And what I'm doing is either either you control your process or your process controls you. And so I was working to control my process, which is there's a part of me that will can look at something and evaluate it from the viewpoint of the industry and a professional writing standard. And that is a real asset that I have. That's. That's a really valuable part of my team. But that entity can't be active all the time. So what I'm learning to do is control, like, when it's appropriate for that to be in play. It's in play. And when it's not appropriate, it's not in play. And that took a really long time because that part was in charge. I wasn't in charge. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:37:26] Speaker C: That's great. You know, we've talked a lot about sort of interior feedback loops because that's so much of the writing craft. But I want to ask you a little bit about exterior feedback loops. You know, when I was learning to write comic was coming up in the comic writing world, the best education, probably the shortest, strongest education I ever had, was that I would write a script and two weeks later the art would come back and I would see what the artist had seen in my words and realize, like, my words did not convey at all what I was picturing right here. You know, like. And then I would go look at the script and see, like, oh, yeah, I see how this could be taken multiple ways. And so the feedback loop was just an incredible education. I think for film. Probably the most popular feedback loops are evaluation questions, which you mentioned, which you offer on your website, but then also probably table reads and writers groups. And I was wondering sort of your thoughts on how to get the most out of external feedback loops. [00:38:21] Speaker B: I think most newer writers really sabotage themselves in table reads and writing groups. Let's start with writing groups. What I found in most writing groups is people read it, they experience a movie or whatever, and they start giving you notes and feedback. It's not what you wrote or what you intended. And even more so, what they're doing is they're saying how they would do it, what they think is interesting. It doesn't, you know, what matters is what you're going for. And how do you get that out in the story? So if you're in a writer's group, what I would do is take control of how you get feedback and say, hey, I'm going to give these pages, and I don't want notes. I don't want. I just want you. I'm going to ask you questions about the movie that you experienced to see if it's coming off the page or not. Just start there. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Those questions are more, like, logistical, right? Like, more like, is something confusing here? [00:39:11] Speaker B: But it's also like, let's say you ask questions about, so how did you feel about this character? And people are like, I hated her. I was. I was disappointed. She. She didn't die off in that scene. And you're like, you love this person. Like, she, you know, so you're like, well, why did you hate her? And then they would Say this and like, well, why was that? And then at some point you realize they hate her because of the movie that plays in her head when she said where some. It was actually another woman that she was in love with. And the woman asked her out and she, for the writer, she was in a lot of pain, this writer, I'm sorry, the character. And she couldn't go out with this woman. And to be loving to this woman, she said no in a kind of a mean way so that that other woman would like not let it go and not keep pining for her. And as painful it was to the second woman, it was more painful to the first woman. Everyone who read it thought, I won't use the word, but what a, a derogatory word that you might use for someone, especially a woman, because they thought she was just saying no in a cruel way. So something like that. From then the whole point of the script, it's. It's like the example I give is you're writing a thing where you're like, come on, we're going on a tour of Paris and we're going to see all the sights of Paris. But they thought they signed up for a beach vacation. And so you're hustling around all these museums and all this and they're really upset because this is the worst beach vacation they ever went on. And one, one thing like that destroys a script. Getting feedback without knowing what people's perspective. But the other thing about writers group you got to be careful about is it can be the blind leading the blind to some extent. Like, and again, people's notes, even if they're really smart, what they're basically saying is, here's how I would fix it. This is like how I would write it. This is what I find interesting. If you allow yourself to keep navigating toward that, you're gonna not end up with anything anyone's gonna want to read. You're not gonna develop as a writer. It's gonna diminish you as a writer. I mean, I was really fortunate. When I was in Film of Sky, I was in a really high level group. There was professional writers or Emmy winning writers and they were really supportive of. And it was an amazing. I learned more from that than film school. So writing groups can be amazing, But I think 95% of them do writers a disservice. And also then you, you know, like, you have the writer who doesn't turn in work a lot because they're so critical and angry and then they're giving you notes like, and then you have the writers who are always so supportive and love what you did because they want you to love what they did. I mean, there's so many agendas that people. And then real quick, here's the thing. I have an issue with table reads. The reason I never do it as a teacher is when you're writing a script, it's the multiple. People are gonna have to read it and love it if it's ever gonna have a chance to get made. And people will say, yeah, I went to this table read and I wrote this, like, this whole page of this really critical relationship between these two characters. And it reads great. But when you hear it, it doesn't sound. And I never would have known that because it reads great. So I changed it so it sounds good. That's the dumbest thing ever. It has to go through a gauntlet of readers. You have to write a script that reads well, even if it doesn't sound well. Sometimes when you're writing it to an actor, the words that sound the best don't read well. After the script is going to get made, they're going to hire actors. There's going to be a director, there's going to be a table read. I've been in a lot of those. Now everyone's reading the script. Now you're paying attention to how it sounds. Now you're gonna do a draft of. Now you don't care how it reads. Now you care how it sounds. But you only wanna do that after the script's been bought and it's gonna get made. So if you're changing your script in a way where it sounds good when actors say it but doesn't read very well, you're never gonna have actors involved. Yeah. [00:43:11] Speaker A: So you'd say table read is good after it's been bought. [00:43:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's gonna get made. [00:43:17] Speaker A: Yeah, and it's gonna get made. [00:43:18] Speaker B: Because then now nobody cares how it reads. Now it only cares. And that's just a quick, real quick thing. But people gotta be careful about. Because sometimes when they're reading scripts to sort of, like, learn. It's a great thing to read scripts right from great writers, really recommend it, but you gotta be careful. You really want to try to read the script they sold. Not the script, the production draft. Because the production draft has been changed where it may not read as well as it sounds. And that is a really important skill. And writers need to learn to do that. But you got to learn how to write it where it reads at a very high level. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I have another question I wanted to ask you. I know I respect your time and we had talked some about faith based stuff and I know you're like, oh, I haven't really seen a lot of it, which is totally fair. I think one of the things that you see in these stories is they know what they want you to feel and what they want you to believe before they've written a single word. They know how by the end they want you. And I'm curious, I honestly don't know the answer to this from your perspective, but what would you say? If I am writing a script where I know what I want someone to feel and believe by the end of it, I would. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Well, let's back up a second. Are you in this scenario? Who. Who's the audience? Like, are you writing this for an audience that mostly shares your beliefs and sort of your values, or are you trying to write something that can appeal to people who may not share your faith? [00:44:40] Speaker A: The second one, I think it's the real goal is to make beautiful, honest work. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Yep. I think so. I might have an answer that that might be different from what you think. [00:44:52] Speaker A: I love it. [00:44:53] Speaker B: I think all writers or all the best writers, they know what experience they want you to have and they know what they want you feeling throughout the script. The thing is, it takes a lot of training and a lot of talent to pull it off. And without some real high level tools or skills, it's going to just feel manipulative and it's going to. I mean, maybe someone who's predisposed to this messaging or seeing this character, God or whatever a certain way, if they already completely on board with that, they may have a. So I would totally test the script. If I would test the script with some people who I'm like, if anyone's gonna like love it, it's these people. Like, this is the easiest audience ever. Like, so when I used to do stand up, I would test my stuff with my wife. Now if my wife laughed, it doesn't mean other people will laugh because she loves me and she knows my sense of humor and she's predisposed to think I'm funny because she's stuck with me now for life. Now if I do a joke for her and she doesn't laugh now, I know that joke definitely doesn't work. So I would like test the script with people who, if anyone's gonna love it, it's them. And if they have issues, you have real issues with the script. If they love it. Okay, good. But now you got to test it with people who don't feel that way. I mean, how you get someone. I mean I, I teach an entire 12 week class on that. The plot casting class where I teach people. What is the experience? Why are you writing this? What's the experience you want us to have? What do you want us to fill at the end? How do you want us to feel about the characters? How do you want to feel about life? What is it that you want us to experience? Oh, let's figure out how you can construct the script in a way that people will viscerally experience it. Not in a. Like you can't lecture to people, you can't have characters telling you. You have to. Just like in life. I would say this if you came to me and I. I don't know what your faith is, but let's say you really have a strong faith and it, it just guides your life and it means everything to you. I'd probably ask you, when did that start and why? And it probably wasn't just because someone told you. You, you probably had some experiences and because of those, and they might have been really positive experiences, they may have been really negative experiences, but you've had some life changing experiences that has probably led you to this very deep faith that you have. So that's what your script has to do. It doesn't have to necessarily have those same experience. But I'm saying like you can't just have character say things. You have to figure out. In a sense you have to think about the reader or the viewer almost as like a character. And in a sense you're, or you know, think about it like from God's perspective. Let's say that God for some reason really wants a particular person to learn a really important lesson and maybe change who they are as a person. And so God maybe would. I don't know if God would actually do this, but just theoretically, let's say God then set some things in this person's life to happen and not happen. All designed to give this person the best chance of realizing something or making this realization or this change doesn't mean the person will. If you believe in free will, but you're giving the person the best opportunity to. In a sense, that's what, that's part of how you think about designing your script in terms of getting the characters or the audience certain experiences. Because you're just telling it to us. No one likes to be sold and no one likes to be converted. I mean, just think about it. Someone, a stranger walks up to you and says, let me tell you about my religion and why you should join. I don't even know what the religion is. I'm like, even if you're going to say my religion, I'm going to quit my religion now. Whatever you say, I don't want anything to do with it. [00:48:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. That's a great answer. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. [00:48:33] Speaker C: And you answered my next question. So I just have one last question that I would like to. I really love the tool that you teach called bisociation. And we don't have to get too deeply into that. But your class actually illustrated something that I see in a lot of writers of faith, which is, I think they. We often take the wrong lessons from this ancient piece of literature that has lasted stood the century, you know, stood 3,000 years worth of readership and public attention, which is what we call the Bible, this collection of stories. But I think we often take the wrong lessons from that. Lessons that don't really work in a modern storytelling context. But when you're teaching by association, you actually, you used an example from the life of Jesus as portrayed in Scripture as why that story works or why. [00:49:29] Speaker B: It'S so powerful and why it affects us. [00:49:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Or it's one reason there's. [00:49:34] Speaker C: Yes. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Well, actually I would want to. And I don't want to get too into that because that kind of gets into some of the, you know, I mean, people pay money for the workshop. So there's a limit to, I think, what's fair. But I would. I just want to clarify something, which is I was saying why it works from a story point of view. That's not to say that it doesn't work because Jesus is the son of God. And from a spiritual or, you know, like, I'm just saying you could look at the Bible as. As the word of God, and you could look at the Bible as a collection of stories, and that's not necessarily mutually exclusive. Right. I'm at an interesting point in hearing this because I'm Jewish and. But Judaism didn't mean much to me. So I was a secular Jew, like cultural Jew, but, like, I wasn't really religious. And then after the attacks on Israel, just for a variety of reasons, I suddenly felt like I wanted a Jewish community. Like, I have a lot of friends in la, obviously, who are Jewish, but they're like me, they're secular Jews. Like, you know, I wanted people who are like, I'm Jewish. Jewish is important to me, even though it's not important to Me. And so we found this amazing synagogue. And so when I join something, I always like, look at all the things they have. And I try everything, just throw myself in the sea. And they have a Torah study. They meet once a week to read. I think it's like Bible study, but, you know, we're just looking at the first part, the Old Testament, but we would call the Torah. I'm like, I'll go to that. So I could check that off the list because I'm not doing that. Like, I'm not going to sit. And anyway, I went to it and it. I was so hooked. It's like I felt like I came home, I go all the time, and I can't speak to how anyone else does it. I don't know if this is usual, but what this, these group of men do is every week we read a different section and we have these amazing discussions about, you know, God and the, and the meaning and why was this in there? And really try to understand the story. But then, like, what can we learn from this? Like, how can we interpret or reinterpret this story today? And it's amazing to me a couple of things. So one of the things that, that really hooked me is someone said that there's a biblical or Torah scholar who said you have to read the Torah on two levels. There's the story of what's happening and then there's the meaning underneath. That's what I teach. And then there's a lot of things I teach, like by association and stuff. It's all there and in the group. And I was like, this is so weird because I thought I made all this stuff up. And I suddenly realized and I didn't. It's not like I was a kid going to Torah study. But like, no, like it must have somehow been passed to me cellularly through the soul. However, I don't know, like all this stuff that I thought I came up with and people take my class that no one's ever said this before. This is amazing. And this is everything that the Torah is. And so that was like, so. I mean, at first my ego was like, wait a minute, I got to give credit to the Torah or the Bible or. But then it's like, this is amazing, like how this was written thousands of years ago anyway. But the other thing is in studying it, it's whoever wrote it. And I don't. I know there are people who believe God wrote it, so the word of God. And then I know there are people who believe man wrote it inspired by God. And, and then there's some people who believe there's no God. So it's just all fiction. Man. Who, whoever was involved in authoring this. And I think it was, whoever it was, oh my God. Amazing storytelling. When you really just get down and look at the stories in the, in the Bible or. And I'm sure it's true of the New Testament. We don't do the New Testament. We do the Old Testament. We have some Christians who come because they just love, love the group and it's great to get their perspective. But it is. There's so many stories in that that are so relevant and important. I think maybe I can't say this with any authority because I don't watch a lot of the faith based movies, but I see the advertisements, I see the trailer. I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of them are really leaning heavy into the spectacle. And I know when I'm reading it, yeah, there's obviously like we just. I remembered that not that long ago and for me these stories are all new. Like growing up, I know the big. I know there was a flood, I know how. But so many of the little stories, like I didn't know and I knew about the Ten Commandments, but I didn't really know about Mount Sinai and everything that was going on in Mount Sinai. And, and when you really stop and look at it like you can learn so much, like so much about what's going on right now and so much about why we're in the messes that we're in and a way out. And not that the spectacle isn't interesting, but it's this. I think this other level to it might be the thing that can elevate this because you know, the question people will have if they're going to make a movie if they read your script is does this story have to be told and why did you write it and why should I do it? And if somebody says I wrote it because my faith is so important to me and I think the Bible is really important and I think more people should be exposed to this. I don't think most people are going to want to make your movie or the kind of people that do want to make your movie are probably going to make a kind of movie that's going to stay behind these walls in terms of accessibility. I think a much better way of thinking about it is almost everyone on earth understands that humanity is facing very terrifying existential threats. And people on the left and people on the right might focus and word it differently. But if you really think about what they're saying, it's very similar, just a very different viewpoint to tell a story from the Bible that is a heightened representation of this and where you can show the wrong way of dealing with it and the right way of dealing with it. The idea is, I think a better answer would be, I'm very concerned about the world they live in. I'm very concerned about, you know, the world my kids are going to live in and their kids. I hope my grandkids have a world to live in. And I want to tell stories that on the one hand, aren't this world, you know, it's as far away from this world as, you know, it's as biblical. And there's characters people don't know about. There's elements of the story like you think, you know the Bible, Wait a minute, you know. And I think I could tell just a really interesting, engaging story, but underneath it, without preaching, I think it can show people a better way of understanding our struggles and your struggles and maybe common mistakes and maybe even a better way of thinking about or feeling about things. Like, that's why I want to write this. And I think that if you actually think about it and write it from that perspective and you have the skills and the tools to pull it off, easier said than done. I think you have a better chance of getting the kind of people involved that would be required to have a movie that everyone, you know, I drive down Sunset Boulevard and I'm not going to say the movie, but there's some movie Netflix. And I look, I just look at the billboard and the words and I'm like, that's. That to me is just going to be preaching to the choir. I don't want to see it. And maybe not, you know, maybe it's a great script and great movie. It's just the marketing of it. It just, in my mind, I'm like, okay, that's, that's a, you know, that's a, that's a faith based movie, you know, as opposed to like, you know, you see a movie, I should look at it and go, that's a story I really experience, you know, like, I don't look at a Nora and say, oh yeah, that's just, that's just a movie for strippers that, you know, whatever. No, it's, it's a human movie or moonlight, you know, I'm not like, oh, yeah, that's, that's a movie for people that grew up in Florida who are this kind of. No, it's like, these are just human, you know, movies that are. Could be appealed to everyone. So intent really matters and why you want to write it really matters. And, and if you can think about it in terms of how it can help the world, then it can be a movie that's important to people who are atheist or agnostic. Because I think at this point, like, if there's a something that can help us, I think we are open to it almost no matter where it comes. [00:56:53] Speaker A: It's good. Very good. [00:56:55] Speaker B: Great. [00:56:55] Speaker C: And I want to go to your Torah class now. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Do you live in la? [00:56:59] Speaker C: I do, yeah. [00:57:00] Speaker B: You should. I'm serious. It's Friday mornings. I mean, it's just, you could just come once. But it's. Man, if you're into storytelling, that's what it is. It's all about a love of story and the mean and it's great, great people. If you ever want to come, Nathan. [00:57:14] Speaker C: And I, we should make, we'll make a field trip. We'll do that. [00:57:16] Speaker B: You should, because I tell you, man, I walked in there very self conscious because like, okay, yeah, I'm Jewish, but I don't know anything about this stuff and I don't even know if I believe in Judaism. And they were just like, we're so happy you're here. They just made me feel so welcome and I didn't say anything for like three weeks. And they were just like, you could tell, they felt, you know, people will say, oh, I'm really happy you came, but they're just saying it. They didn't say it, but I could feel it. And they just love having, you know, and what they really love is people with different perspectives. They love it when. And I don't know what your guys faith is, although I'm assuming now it's not Judaism. But they love when like Christians come or Catholic. I have a good friend who's Catholic and he's come and they love it and they love it and sometimes they'll just turn to them and they go, so what's the Catholic perspective on this? You know, and it's, it's because. Yeah, it's just I think no matter what religion you are, you're trying to live with grace or treat others with grace and loving kindness and you're trying to get out of the ego and the materialism and higher purpose. I mean, I think we're all struggling for the same things. And personally I can use all the help I can get, you know, and if it's from the Torah or it's something Jesus said or did, like, bring it on. You know, if there's a Buddhist thing, like, I'm like, I, I'm a flawed human, I could use all the help I can get. [00:58:30] Speaker C: That's great. Real quick, just since I mentioned by association, which I love, what is the name of that class on your website? Because I don't think that that's the name of it. [00:58:40] Speaker B: It's the Organic Story Structure. So there's the professional Screenwriting TV writing workshop. That's the first workshop. It really starts the foundation of creative integration, context, clarity, conflict, escalations. And then the follow up is the Organic Story Structure workshop, which is really how you put it all together into an organic story structure. And by association, which is long form story engines, which you need to sell a script is one of the tools that's taught in the second workshop. Great segue. If anyone's interested, coriamandel.net, start with the free stuff. Hopefully you'll get hooked and want more. Hopefully the free stuff is it scratches the itch and, and you're good with that. So anyway, if you want to check it out, it's Corey Mandel. [00:59:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, we'll, we'll put the links in on the show notes as well. Yeah, definitely. There's essentially been two people that I feel like has helped me a lot with writing and you, you are one of them. And so I happily share. So I appreciate you coming on. [00:59:36] Speaker B: Thanks for what do you feel the. [00:59:39] Speaker A: Most, for lack of a better word, like called to right now in your life? It's so interesting. I love you, like, sharing about, like going, you know, wanting to learn about Torah and going to a Jewish community, but also like, in your writing, like, what. I'm just curious, like, what kind of like, lights you up the most right now or do you feel drawn to? [00:59:56] Speaker B: So I'm really concerned about things that are happening in the world. And I'm fighting, you know, an inclination to be worried and stressed and brooding. And so I'm trying to stay focused. And one of the things that someone who studied Kabbalah said, like, the secret to happiness is find. Find how you can be of value to others at the highest level and do that. And I feel like I was put on this earth to help storytellers. And so I'm. That's what I'm focused on, is helping storytellers. And I also really believe that stories matter and the truth matters. And I think that, I mean, if you think about it like, like our identities are stories and our faith are stories. And our politics are stories, and there's just a lot of lies and dishonesty, and we've been metabolizing that. And so I actually think one thing that everyone can do, I'm gonna. Sorry. No, Ron, I want to end on this. So there is a writer, and I'm paraphrasing, and I don't remember his name, but I love this, and I think about this a lot when I'm feeling stressed. So I apologize to this writer, I don't remember his name, but what he said is, imagine there's this raging inferno coming up over the hill. You can see it, and it's going to come destroy your community and everything. You know that. You have three options. First option is turn and run as fast as you can away from the inferno, leaving the people who can't run to burn. Save yourself. Don't worry about the others. Second option is you can complain, you can march, you can write stuff on social media, complain about, let everyone know you are not in favor of the fire and you're not part of the fire. And then the third option is you get a bucket of water and you run towards that fire and you throw that bucket. And if you don't have a bucket, you know, you get a glass or a fellow of water. But what if you don't have that? Then he goes down the list and he ends up with a teaspoon. You get a teaspoon of water and you go and you fling it at the fire. Now. And as he says, and I'm paraphrasing, I think this is why so many people are crippled with fear and anxiety, because you say, what is a teaspoon of water going to do against this raging inferno? And the answer is nothing really, but a million teaspoons of water. And we all have a teaspoon. And I think that one of these teaspoons is telling your stories, telling stories in an authentic, honest way, because people can feel authentic. I think people now, especially a younger generation, I think they hear stories and I don't think they have a good innate feeling if that's true or not, if they're being manipulated or lied to. So it's like if you eat food and you don't even. You've eaten so much junk food, you don't even really know what good food tastes like. The more people can. Just stories that are authentic and the storyteller's integrity, and it's coming from your real pain or your real hopes or your real love. I actually think that's nourishing That's a. That's a teaspoon of water. And if we get enough of those stories, not to mention stories, can allow us to have empathy. We can live a life of someone that doesn't look like us, think like us, pray like us, vote like us, and we can realize how similar we are. Like, you can say that until you're blue in the face. I think everyone now is living in a world of there's me, us, and them, as opposed to use. You know, something I really love in Torah, which is something we always remind ourselves, is that we're all created in God's image. And if you really believe that, then there's no thems, you know, it's all us. And I gotta say, I'm a little ashamed that, like, I'm like, okay, from now on, I'm gonna think about everyone as an us. But there are people. I see what they do or hear what they say, and I'm like, blah, blah, blah, them. Yeah. And my wife's like, us. And I'm like, no, they're not enough. They're a them. And. And. And what I realize is I. I am very strong on one side of the political divide. And I, for a long time, have hated how the other side, I think, has dehumanized my side and made us into caricatures, and they hate us, and they won't even listen to us. And I realized at some point that I now do that to that side, and I realize I've been poisoned. You know, I'm now part of the problem. So what lights me up is I want to help people. I want to. I want to help a wider, diverse range of people be able to tell compelling stories, because I think all of that will help. And I think stories might be one of the only things that can save us in some ways, because stories can unite and not divide us, because it seems like everything divides us now. So I'm trying to stay very focused on that purpose because I believe in it. I want to help make the world a better place. But also it's good for my mental and emotional health because we live in troubling times. [01:04:25] Speaker A: It's good. And, you know, the idea of we versus them, I think that is. That's super important. [01:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I find it hard sometimes, I gotta say, but I. I fight. I fight. Fight the good fight. I don't always win it. [01:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [01:04:42] Speaker C: Well, I don't think we can end on a better idea, that concept than that. So let's wrap things up. But as we do. Do you have, we've mentioned coreymandel.net is there any particular, we've mentioned the free stuff. Is there any particular starting point that you recommend for people or should they. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Just sort of come in and find out? [01:04:58] Speaker C: Curiosity. [01:04:59] Speaker B: Start with the free stuff and it'll give you. Well, you probably get a sense from this, but it'll give you a good sense of what it's like for me as a teacher, what I'm teaching. It's not for everyone. You know, people who want rules or paradigm or a formula which I think is a big mistake. I'm not that guy. Anyone who. There, there are classes out there that like write a script to help you sell it. Like no, like I'm going to help you become a real writer. So if it seems like it's for you, you have two options if you want to. The, the less expensive option is you can. There's digital, you'll see it on the website. But you can get the training on an on demand product where you can, it's all the training. There's no interaction but it's all the training and you can get that. It's a lot less expensive and you can do it at your, your schedule or take the workshop where you get the training but you also get my coaching and my interaction. And more importantly, we get very high level writers like you two taking the workshop. So you are going to be able to interact and probably create a writing group of the high level writers. The only problem with the workshop is like right now they're sold out till September and that's a showrunner I think is buying it out for, for the staff and friends. But I'm gonna, I'll add one. I'm, I'm gonna try to add one over the summer. Maybe by the time this drops I will, maybe I won't. So sometimes you'll have to wait six or nine months to get in the workshop. So. Or sometimes you get lucky and there's a workshop, a new one that just opened. Yeah. Start with the free stuff to see if you know. Because I don't ever want to take money from someone who doesn't feel like it exceeded their value. And I know a lot of people taking a lot of writing classes and often feel ripped off because they're just teaching the same stuff, the same formula. It doesn't really help them. Start with the free stuff. And then if, if you have a good feeling about it, you can do the on demand stuff. It's less expensive. Or you could if you want reach out about the next workshop and do that. Great. [01:06:41] Speaker A: Love it. Awesome. Well, Corey, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. This is from two people that feel very grateful to you. I know you said one of your you feel called to is helping storytellers. And so you've, you've definitely done that. So appreciate you, man. [01:06:53] Speaker B: Thank you, Sam.