Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, guys. If you're on the video podcast on YouTube, you can see that I have my cat Billy right here. Joining me for this intro. Today we are introducing David Gunger. He is an artist, songwriter, father, music producer. He's based in New York City. He makes up half of the band the Brilliance alongside John Art. They have hundreds of millions of streams and you probably heard the song brother that they have. I remember the first song that really grabbed me years back on them was a song called Hands and Feet. But man, they've made so much great music since then. And David is also, also the leader of the Good Shepherd Music Collective. She's always kind of like led with humility. I love hearing him chat about how worship music is also meant to inspire the imagination and my cat just knocked over the microphone. Rude. Hearing him chat about how worship music is also meant to awaken the imagination and the idea that we don't necessarily like, get to own art in the way that we think we do, but we do get to participate in it. So anyway, I love getting connect with them. So without further ado, let's talk art and Faith with David Gunker.
Do you believe the Holy Spirit can play a role in the writing process as you're, you know, writing a song?
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think anything that is beautiful and good is. And even to say that it's hard because when you talk about beauty and good, like that's obviously they're subject to like when we talk about beauty and good, but I mean anything that like brings life. One of the things that we tap into for when you talk about like the work of the Spirit is this work of like creation and play and the idea of the Trinity as like God, love loves God's self. That like, it's always creating, it's always the gift of play. And that's where I, I really love throughout the, you know, New Testament, Jesus is like, unless you become like a child, unless you have this childlike heart, unless you under understand like what it is to have wonder and what it is to have possibility, you're not really going to get the kingdom of God because it just seems so upside down and ridiculous. And as a creative, one of the things that we easily go to is like just that inner critic, that inner thing that just goes like this is.
Stop it, stop it. It's not good enough or it's not this. I, I do believe in, in the power of tapping into something bigger than yourself. And I think that usually the way that we talk about our own consciousness in the west is. Is through a Cartesian model, meaning, like I think, and therefore I am. And because of that, our only reality is whatever we have experienced, whatever we do. And so we really get into this thing of like a solipsistic bubble where nothing outside of my own, out of my own experience really is. Is real. In South Africa, there's a word where you say ubuntu, which means, if you are not well, I am not well. And I think there's an interconnectedness that. That's what the Trinity always is, showing the interconnectedness of God and then God self to us.
I think the more we disconnect from God and the more we disconnect from our neighbor, the more we disconnect from God, the more we disconnect from God, the more we disconnect from ourself. And I think there's something about when you say, like, hey, I'm tapping into something that is bigger than me, like, it's creating. You're always going to be going outside of yourself, which is still connected to yourself, but it's not just inward. And so that connectedness is what I would call the work of the spirit. And so I do believe that, yes, you can be like, tapping into something much beyond yourself that someone would say, like, oh, that's. I couldn't have done that by myself. I don't know what I was. I don't know what I was attuned to there. And I would call it grace.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally relate to that. The idea that it's kind of outside of yourself and you can show up and try to do your part, but it's outside of yourself. There's a grace to it. You mentioned that inner critic and that how do you, as like a creator, what do those voices sound like? And how do you counteract that or fight that or don't fight it or. Yeah, how do you deal with it? Like, the minute you decide to make art, it's a vulnerable thing, you know?
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think. Okay, so I will say I've talked about this many times before with friends. So I'll start with like the left brain, right brain, way of approaching creativity. I think there's one side of it that's like the craftsperson who really puts in there, like Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 Hours, where you're working really hard at a craft, but because you're working at that craft with that idea, you know what is good and you know how much work and effort you have to put into it. But then just the natural thing of that. Sometimes it's more vulnerable to put yourself out there because you know how much work it is and you know who's really good. And so you're. You're less adverse to take risk. You're trying to, like, follow this craftsmanship. And when someone critiques the craft, it feels like they're critiquing you. And then on the opposite side of this caricature of creativity, you'd have someone that is kind of a supernova tastemaker who doesn't necessarily put in a ton of hours to a craft. They may have gotten lucky or have, like, such this type of skill where you're like, all right, I woke up last night and I had a dream, and it was this melody, and. And it was yesterday, you know, and you're like, oh, my gosh, this melody is crazy. And it's amazing. You might be really talented at one thing, but you just put out stuff. And if you put it out and you feel like there's critique, you're like, well, you just don't get it.
Your talent is like, I'm putting it out and I kind of. I brush off critique. The problem. There's shadows to both, I think. On one side, if you just rely on that tastemaker talent and you're just a supernova of talent, what happens when the inspiration goes away? You don't have a lot to, like, go back on. There's not a lot of training. There's not a lot of things. And then also it's really hard to grow because you just kind of rely on inspiration and the moment, versus if you're just a person that relies on your craft, it's really difficult to be vulnerable and to take a lot of risk. And so if we're going to break out of that kind of left brain, right brain idea of creativity, I think if you're a craftsperson who really relies on, know the technical skill, I know that you have to, like, work with people who are coming from the other side to kind of help grow out of that. And then at the same lens, if you're someone that just is like, inspiration comes and you can do a ton of work and you can do that, but you don't have a lot of training. You don't have a lot of hours put in you. You need to become friends with other people and learn how to practice, learn how to be critiqued, learn more and more, and that's how you kind of elevate to the next. To the next level of artistry.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: I feel like that's good for me to hear as well. I hadn't thought about it in the kind of the two different versions I think too, it's like getting repetitions of just making stuff and not judging it and just keep working on it. As someone who's been in music, what would you say stands in the way of some of the Christian projects out there or the faith based projects out there?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, historically that's. We're in a moment right now where Christian art feels like that because, you know, a million different reasons, but I feel like our own faith feels like that way anyway. It feels cheap and, and, and very binary and also very propaganda ish with politics and with beliefism and consumerism and all the ways that we do that. So I think it just reflects our own faith. First of all, I don't think it's the problem of Christian art. I think it's the problem of people's imagination with. Within Christianity. But historically speaking, you look at Bach, would you call Bach Christian art or would you just call it art? And I think it's both. But Bach was making amazing music for the church. And when you talk about same thing where you're like, all right, when people go to museums and they go to things, it was curated so much by the church and so much of like the Christian story. I think the difference between art today that's made on like a visual or a for music is to say it's Christian is like, we have to say like, okay, does it, does it hit you in the face of, you know, it is Christian. And that's where like great art there's room for dialogue and there's room for interpretation. It's not just black and white. If we looked at a great painting, Mona Lisa is a good example. Not a lot of people like the Mona Lisa. Some people love the Mona Lisa, but you can say like, why has it stood the test of time? Someone would be like, she's happy, she's sad, she's smiling, she's beautiful, she's homely. It's unfinished, whatever it is. There's dialogue, there's a story. There's something to it that like we can engage with the art over a long period of time. I think that's the same thing with the Beatles. By no, by no means is. Are there records like, perfect.
Is it? Do you love it? Do you hate it? There's a story of like even the friendship of the tension of the everything with it. There's just so much room for how you Engage the art. And I feel like with Christian art, a lot of times we're just not creating enough room or space to actually engage the art. And the best Christian art, I mean, I would say there's actually. My argument would be like, we're actually sort of in a renaissance of Christian art right now, but from people who you wouldn't necessarily think are the Christian art. So when I look back at it, you'd be like, dude, I think Sufyan is a total Christian artist who's an amazing artist in every way, but he's also engaging with faith and work and things that you'd be like, wow, that's amazing. I think so much of Martin Scorsese's work is, like, dealing with his faith and dealing with that. I believe. Like, how can you not see Silence that movie and be like, oh, my gosh, this dialogue of. There's so many different films and forms of art that do that. I think what's hard, though, is our lack of imagination to say, like, what is Christian? What isn't Christian? What is. And that's where I think we get stuck within feeling like we can even create and wrestle with faith.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah. So this. Obviously, I think you're kind of answering this, but does art need to be Christian art to glorify God?
[00:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it would be a hard no. A hard no. I mean, but that's even to say. All right, I'll say it in a different way. That will be. I think it will rub some who imagine their language of, like, what is God? In a way, would be an orthodox view of God is that God is not a Christian. God is God. We are Christians, and we come to God through the Son and through this revelation of who God is in Jesus Christ. But God is not a belief system upon God's self for Christian. And you have to humble yourself to just whatever truth is. We have to know. We. We do miss it a lot of times as Christians. And it doesn't mean that we're missing the whole thing, but it does mean that, like, we're submitting ourselves to something bigger than us and we're, like, walking a path. And that level of humility and that level of openness is something that is often missing within the idea of, like, is it Christian and does it glorify God? I think that that is the work of the Spirit that moves beyond beliefism, that, like, we have to just go, God is God. I am not God.
And. And for that, I think it's a posture that I do not Try to claim that all Christians just own all good art or all the glory of God. And art good.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: It's good. When you're creating, is there any, like, regular practices or spiritual practices that you.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Feel like, so later, yeah, this goes back to actually the inner critic. And later on in life, I discovered this, which is gonna sound insane, is the power of hobbies and play. Because when I would only write music, it started to become this thing where, like, right when I was writing it, I'd either, like, love it or hate it, and I wouldn't give it a shot. And I would also, like. I don't know. But I started. Started to paint with my daughters. My daughter is actually a very good painter, and I'm terrible, but I would do watercolors and just kind of do it. It was mostly like, slow down, slow down right now. And I'd be like, I'm not good at this. But there was something really beautiful in being like, enjoy this. Even though you're not good at it. Just be in the moment. And I would do it. And then I'd, like, show my daughters, here's what I did, and they laugh at me. But I found that so joyful to be like, I'm doing art that I'm not good at. And then the same thing, I started being like, you know, I should try. Instead of just, like, writing lyrics, I should try to see how I am as a writer. And so I started writing short stories. So I started having fun writing these little short stories that then I found, like, oh, I'm actually wrestling with this idea in my own head of doubt or whatever that is, and being like, how do I encounter this story through a different lens? And not that it's the best writing, but I just found over and over that I would get out of my own, like, what I'm good at doing. And I felt like I'm not skilled in this or not that. But then I would find so much creativity from it, and a new song would come about, or I'd approach my songwriting in a way where. Where instead of, like, judging it right away, being like, let it play out. Let's try this, and if it's not good, you still can enjoy it. And so for me, that practice of a kind of playful spirituality and trying to be present with it being okay with not being something that, like, I know I'm going to make money on, or I know I'm going to, you know, like, as an artist who you make your money off of your art, a lot of times, the way you approach it, it can just become so quickly. Something where if you feel like it's not going to be successful in someone else's eyes or monetize, it feels like a waste of time. And I just don't want art to become that. And so for me, those. Those practices of, like, writing and painting have become, like, a very prayerful act for me, of being present.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: It's cool. It's really good. You're, like, planting seeds of play and almost embracing amateuristic ness to it, and that is like growing fruit, you know, that totally makes sense. That's good. A, are there moments that you just kind of get inspired to make something, and then B, have you found any patterns? So often I'll be in worship at church, and I'm like, oh, my brain's getting distracted because I had this idea that really excites me. Or if I go on a walk listening to music, music is a big part for me. But, like, yeah, is there any patterns you've seen in, like, the moments you get inspired?
[00:14:11] Speaker B: So I want to answer that, but before I do, I just would acknowledge, as someone that does music in church, that that's actually the point of music in church is. You know, a lot of times we think the point is to just be like, all right, I worshiped, and then I did that. And it's like, no, no, no, no. The music is there to inspire your imagination to, like, become whatever worship you say, you know, or you're professing. So if it's something like this week for us, it's Holy Week, and, you know, we just said hosanna, and we sang hosanna. And to sing that is like, lord, save us, rescue us. All those things. Like, yeah, it's cool to, like, sing that in church, but what does that mean to, like, actually bring it to your life and to think about that prayer where you're living that out or you're actually, like, engaging with it. So as a creative person, I hope that the art that you, like, feel in church or the prayers that you pray inspire your imagination to then, like, go out into the world and do that. And I feel like sometimes in the church, we.
We miss the point of music in church to inspire the Christian imagination. We think it's only, like, don't think about anything else. Don't get distracted. The same thing with the sermon. It's like, no, the whole point is to inspire you to be creative and go do that. So I want to acknowledge that.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: I love that you said that. No, I just want to say I love that you said that. I was just talking to, like, Harry Yoon, and he was talking about how that happens to him in worship all the time and how he's like. As we're talking, like, I'm not so sure this is something to be discouraged, but perhaps it is a worship response.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Perhaps it is, like, to bring it. To make it real, to take the words that are being said and be like, this is what that looks like in reality for me. Or this is how I would see that in reality.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
Okay. This is going to go to where I'm going to let this conversation just, like, move into this new realm, which is a creative. I find really inspiring right now, which is, at which point does the art stop being yours as the creator and does someone else own it or take the meaning from it or whatever that is? And I tend to think it's a very solipsistic, materialistic, individualistic way to be, like, I control what meaning is. I control this moment. And I think it's always so much more beautiful when the. The. The group, the full. Whatever you want to call it, like, the hive can then, like, build upon it. And that's where I feel, like, so many times within our evangelical, like, build out of, like, what a modern liturgy looks like or the way that we engage that. Like, there's a lot of beautiful things to it, but sometimes we get stuck of still creating these little boundaries, of, like, shame on you for sitting down right now or sitting on you for writing right now or thinking or getting out of that. And I'm just like, no, no, no, no. Like, I want. I want Christian art to inspire spirituality. And spirituality is so much more than just that little moment of music or that little moment of a sermon or whatever.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: That is so good. I love it. Yeah. I had this experience. I wasn't going to mention this, but where I was going through a really hard time.
I was in this relationship with a great person, but it just didn't feel right.
I wasn't even thinking about that at all. I was just super distressed, and I decided I was gonna go home. I bought a gallon of black paint and a bunch of paper, like, thick paper, and I just started painting. And in that night, I painted, like, 12 paintings, abstract paintings. No idea. I wanna say Warshank Tests.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: No thoughts on it at all. I wasn't trying to bring my own consciousness, and I was just. Just trying to feel better. And, you know. So anyway, time goes by and I'm looking at those maybe six months later, and I'd broken up with this person I was with. And I was like, look at this painting. And I was like. I'm like, every single one of these looks like a female. Like, it looks like. I didn't contradict, but it looks like different versions of different females that look completely different. And I was like. In hindsight, I'm like. I was trying to figure out who I was, like, trying to be with or who I should be with or. And I couldn't. Every single painting was also, like, a sort of a failure. Like, a failure in the sense that it didn't. It never worked out. It was, like, half finished. It was just like a chin and a shoulder and, like, you know, And I'm like, this absolutely was, like, subconsciously coming through what I was going through in the time. And I consciously never made that decision at all. And it kind of flipped my view on art and the idea that it's like, ours and that we can control the narrative, you know, and then other people will receive those paintings differently. So when you said that, it made me think of just. Yeah, it's like, we don't really have as much control as we think we do. We get to participate.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: But, yeah, and I mean, even that. So what you just described is a very. You know, that is a concept of spirituality that in the west is very hard for us to grapple with. There's five truths every boy must learn to become a man. It's from Richard Roy. And I just want to read the truths because they make me laugh so hard every time that I read them, because they're the antithesis of, like, American values. So the first one maybe, is not like, life is hard, but, like, we're always, like, trying to make life easy. But, like, you have to learn as a boy. Like, no, life is really hard, and it's going to be hard. Number you are not that important, which is so hard, because everything in our society is like, look at me. I am important. I'm a star, right? And, like, you just have to learn you're not that important.
The third one, your life is not about you, which is so hard, because our entire reality is, like, that, solipsistic. Of course my life is about me. The fourth one, which is like, what you just said is, you're not in control. You're not in control. Like, you can do all the things to be healthy. You can eat great. You can do things and still, like, man, there's so many things outside of your control that, like, you're gonna die. You're not in control. And that is the last 1/5 you're going to die. And I just laugh because everything in us is like, no, we're trying. Trying to, like, get to immortality. We're trying to get to this place of. Everything in our story is like, I want to live forever. And then also this thing of, like, we're always fighting for control. But there's part of the spiritual practice of, like, letting go. And I think for art, that is one of the practices that is so difficult to learn of even, like, you're not in control. You think that you have this taste that, like, you made up or you did, or you think you have this talent, you think. And it's just like, dude, you gotta let go and realize, like, you're actually a sum of all the parts, man. Like, you're born in this time and, like, all these things. And so letting go of that and then experience and then, like, grappling with your art is a really difficult but, like, mindful and spiritual practice.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: That's good. What do we say to someone who feels called to make art? We're saying, like, it's not really theirs, though, so what can they do? Is it just to show up and try and swing? What would you say to someone?
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, okay, just because I said it's not that. What I think I mean by that, is it start. It's. Yeah. The outcome is, I think there's something beautiful in sharing. So, like, starting something and then sharing it with the world, eventually when you give something over and that process of letting go is the process of, like, oh, this was gift. And there's kind of like a circular nature of grace in that. And so it becomes more meaningful. I think, by itself, it might. It might have meaning to you, but if it only has meaning to you, well, really, what meaning does that have? So I would start by saying if someone is wanting to create, I'd always be, like, create and realize that, like, all of us who are doing it are kind of faking it. If you're making it and we're all playing and we're all doing that and have that thing where, like, be a person that's learning and engaging. If you're like, I want to do this for a career, good luck.
I think what's really odd is the tension that we have right now with technology and creativity. You know, we have AI the way that I can edit a song is so different than any time of, like, modern music. We're entering this, like, postmodern music era, and that's the same thing with you, you know, digitally and capturing images, and we can manipulate and we can do all these things. And what's hard is the more we try to go perfect, the more unhuman it becomes. And I think anytime something becomes unhuman and you start reaching for that, it starts to warp. And we start to, like, long for, once again, imperfection, and we start to long for those things. So anyone that is trying to find their voice or trying to find their skill, I just. I'd really lean into, like, okay, so what is something, like, unique about your skill? And lean into, like, the imperfection is okay. And in fact, it can really be the thing that makes you stand out. So if that's songwriting, if that's you're a vocalist or a cellist or you're a photographer or you're a filmmaker or anything that you do create, you know, a writer, right now is a scary time to be like, okay, so, like, are we going to exist in. In 20 years for the film industry? I don't know. But I do know that there is a niche part of, like, humanity is going to want humanity. And oftentimes we're able to give language that people already feel, and we just, like, lean in and say, yes. Like, yes, there's something to do that where art is speaking to the soul, like that. That essence that, like, we can't even speak of, where it's like, we're leaning into, what does it mean to be human? And I think right now more than ever, we need to, like, learn that again. And so we need artists to create and to not be afraid to create.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: That's good. So good. Do you feel like that there is a, like a piece of work or a song or story or anything that that's in your top three of things that you like the most that you've made?
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Yes. But they're not what other people usually like. Like, so what's really, to me are usually tied to story that go beyond us. So an example was this is. I don't. I don't even like to tell this story because it feels like I'm talking in a happy way about it. And it's not a happy way at all. It's a grieving way. But the grief, like, somehow in that grief you find beauty and love was. We had someone ask us to use a song that was very meaningful to them for their child's funeral. And their child, they had struggled to get pregnant. And then when they finally had a baby, the baby died in nicu. And it Was just this, like, horrific, horrible tragedy to have, like, this baby boy. And his name was Clive. And I remember they wanted us. They were like, could you maybe, like, send in a video of us doing this thing? And it was kind of a happy. It just felt, like, really odd to do it. So John and I tried to get together to do it. John is my partner in this band called the Brilliance. And then we just kind of like free flow. John just started, like, playing this melody and I just started almost like you would. If you, like, grew up Pentecostal, where you'd be like, you'd, like, be singing in, like, the Spirit or, like, a new song to the Lord type thing. I say that tongue in cheek of, like, you know, you're just, like, making up stuff, but you're doing it very earnestly and open. And I was just singing this boy's name and just, like, started crying. And we came up with this little melody and then it kind of turned into a song. And we recorded the song that afternoon and we sent it to the family for the funeral that they played at the funeral, and we never released it. And it's one of my most sacred pieces of art that I feel like I've ever created because I know it meant so much to the family. It's very beautiful and haunting and weird. But I also felt like I didn't want to make any money off of singing this kid's name. Not that I like Big. I don't know, I just. It was a gift. And it was also, like, sacred. And so for me, that's not, like, the only thing. But one of the things is you're like, oh, that was a time of art where I felt like it really touched Small. Aim Small, Miss Small. It was there. But then it also, like, inspired me of. This is why I want to continue to create art, is to, like, inspire empathy and love and those stories that. That, like, touch our humanity is the place that, like, I find spirituality. And so that is, like, my call as a Christian, if you would, is less about just, oh, making a Christian song or doing that. But just like, how do I, in my own small way, have art that, like, engages us with humanity to inspire empathy?
[00:26:19] Speaker A: That's cool. Yeah. I feel much of the brilliance music, if I was to put a word that jumps out even more to me with, it would be empathy. When you talk about seeing your brother's face in an enemy, I feel like in so many of your songs, there's this level of empathy and sort of at times, a refusal in a Good way to take a side. Or I guess to say that this is the bad guy and this is the good guy. But, you know, that we're just human, you know, I feel like you guys do that so well.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Thank you. Those things stick out. And then also, you know, collaborations are funny because you. I'm sure it's similar for you when you work on, like, a. On something that you love, when you start working with other people that you love, it brings so much meaning to that project.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: And so there are. There are songs or things that I look back on that I'm like, oh, my gosh, Creating this was just so much fun. It was so beautiful. There's things musically that I look back on 10 years ago that I'm like, ugh. I just don't even want to listen to it. It's just embarrassing for me. But what you do have is, like, that, like, oh, do you remember when we created that? In that moment when you're like, this was so fun doing this. And those are the things that I feel like bring a lot of meaning that you can look back on the art and. Which is different, because if you're just, like, a solo artist, sometimes that can be, like, in isolation, really. I'm imagining how tough that could be. But that's. For me as a musician, collaboration really becomes, like, such a wonderful gift.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Could you. Yeah. Talk to me a little about that? At times, collaboration, I find myself hesitant because I'm. Because I feel what happens is I have an idea that I want to do, and it's probably just poor communication, but I want to bring someone in. And I'm like, oh, we don't agree on this.
And I want it to go my way.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Because I started this thing, and then I'm like, so then I feel like I have to. I don't want to offend this person. But you're someone who's done a lot of collaborating and made great stuff. Do you have any input on collaborating well and what you've learned along the way and not being a dictator, but also making something beautiful.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Okay, so what's interesting is collaboration. So much of it is based around language and around relational dynamics. Sometimes if you're only coming at it from, like, this idea is mine, and I control it. Once again, I feel in, like, letting go of even saying, like, you came up with the idea. It's like, okay, well, maybe you came up with it because this person was in the room with you who help lead you to this place or whatever it is. And I feel like in a family relationship, my wife and I. Kate. My wife's name is Kate. The way that we act together and defer to one another and, like, have a shared language is intentional. And we have, like, ground rules for how we are as a couple. When we parent together, those roles change a little bit. They might be very, very similar, but. But an example would be in front of the kids. We're not going to be quite as candid about certain things that we would if it was just us, because with our kids, we know that there's another, like, container or another thing that they might not understand. You could imagine different topics that you might not talk about in front of your kids, that you would talk about each other and do that in front of them. I might, you know, have different ground rules for fighting. And I think learning how to fight well is really, really important in a relationship. So you need to be able to have real conversation, but you also need to have ground rules. We're not going to just, you know, name call. We're not going to do these certain things that dehumanize or else. Then I get defensive and I do this. So it doesn't mean that I never break the rules or I'm never an idiot. Of course I am. But we try to have ground rules as a couple. So there's the collaboration, where it's like, whoever you're creating with as an equal, you need to have ground rules with. And then there are ground rules with collaborators who you kind of are the boss of, or, like, you're hiring or you're, you know, they're deferring to you. That, once again, might look more like. It doesn't mean that it's always family. But I'm just using this as an example is like, the way that I parent and try to engage ideas from my kids, I'll listen to. I want them excited about it. I know, like, I want to engage them on that. It might be the same thing with a sibling or a friend where it's like, if you're planning something that's fun, but at the same time, when the buck stops, like, I know I'm in charge of X, Y, and Z, so I'm in charge of, for instance, with my kids. I might be like, where do you guys want to go on vacation? Or what do you want to. You know, And I want ideas, and I want these things. I want there to be an overall plan of what's. What happens for whatever we're trying to do together. But, like, their safety is a priority. Right. And same thing with, like, things like budget, because I can't just spend whatever I want. Right. I have constraints.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: And so working clearly within constraints and working within boundaries, I think is so, so, so important.
And so what people want oftentimes for collaboration is to know what the boundaries are, to know when there is conflict. How do you. How do you work that out? But I think no conflict, no good sauce. Like, no pressure, no diamonds. So there should be something of, like, competing ideas. There should be something where you're bringing out the best, but everyone understands what the goal is. And if you don't all have the same goal, that's when you really, really get into big trouble. But when there is a shared goal and there is someone that's, like, kind of spearheading something, then I think you start approaching things a different way. Musicians have to deal this all the time with, like, when you hire. If you're an artist and you hire a producer so many times, you're like, well, whose art is that? Is that the producer's art or is that the, you know, artist? And I think good producers all the time when you're producing, you're, like, trying to really understand the voice of the artist. And you're an artist yourself, but you have a totally different role. It'd almost be like when you have grandparents who are looking after grandkids. Their parenting style is not going to be the same way that it was with kids with it as grandkids. They're like, okay, I'm doing this a different style, and they're more loving, maybe, or they're more lax. But my point is they can act differently when they're a grandparent than they do when they're a parent. And you, as a parent, you actually want a grandparent around that has a different approach to something. It doesn't mean that you want it to go against it. But there is something really beautiful and diversity of thought and creativity for relationships because it helps give space and air. And so for. For me, do I want to have an environment where I'm setting up diversity and diverse thoughts of opinions and. But there's also a clear goal, and there's a way that I know how I can fight and the boundaries in which I can try to do that. And then if I am fighting too much, an example would be if you're playing guitar on someone's record and there's a producer and there's an artist, you might be doing something. The producer has one idea and the artist has one idea, and you're like, all right, well, I like this, and I'm gonna give my opinion, but at the end of the day, who am I working for? How does this work? Am I trying to give my own. Own version of this thing? I might really believe in the project, and I can fight for it, but, like, what is even my relational dynamics with those people? And I feel like that happens on sets. That happens in any type of creative process where you really have to work out, like, what are the boundaries relationally here?
[00:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Let's say you're in a moment that someone is pushing an idea, and they feel very strongly about it, and you feel strongly not about it. This does. This does not feel right for. For the goal. How do you deal with that? Like, getting ultra specific.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: So I think that what's interesting is, like, when you start to talk about, like, the power dynamics, that's really, like, a tough thing. Because when you start working less on a I'm your boss and more, like, we're totally collaborators, that's where it really gets hard. There's something really beautiful in the idea that, like, we struggled with this so much, and this is what came out of it. And so when someone has a totally different idea, like, let's say that it was John. Cause John is the person that would be like, all right, we own this together. 50. 50. And this is a very weird, specific thing that we do, but we do the thing where, like, if I write a song, 99% of it, and John writes 1% of it or the opposite, we still are just co writers. 50. Because really, so much of the feedback that we get, we value that tension so much that it's like, okay, it could be the smallest thing that one of us changes or critiques or does, but it moves the song or the art in a different way. And we really value each other as collaborators for that. That's not the same thing with every person at all. But I'll have many times where I will give into something that maybe I really believe in, but I'm giving into it because I've taken, like, 30 other things, and I'm like, I need to let go of this. And I'm not letting go of it because of the song. I'm letting go of it because of the relationship. And I want to continue a good working relationship. And I know that I trust the person who I'm in relationship. I trust their taste as much as mine, if not more. It doesn't mean that I don't think I'm right in that moment. It Just means that I value this relationship enough. I think what's difficult is if it's a one time relationship. So I just hired a producer, I just hired this. No, like, it's going to come down to like, relationally I have to hold this stance. But part of that is the dynamic of who you create with. So the community, the group and the set and setting, I would work out, well, how much do you want to give here, right? If you're always just like, no, I can only take this hard stance, you're probably not going to work with that person over time. And so if that's the role that you need to take for that moment, I get it and I respect it. But a lot of times the people that I'm collaborating with, I'm not just collaborating with them on that one project. It's a working relationship.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: It's good. Awesome. I feel like very rarely do I get to hear this type of conversation about collaboration and figuring kind of the messiness of it. What is your relationship to ambition? Like, I feel like, especially people who are believers, we're apprehensive about like what it means to be really ambitious. What is your relationship to ambition like?
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Well, I don't find ambition to be a positive or negative thing, meaning like, oh, it's always good or it's always bad. But I do find anyone that is human and an adult that they're like, my life is not about me, automatically, like, ambition is going to play a role in that. Because if I'm not ambitious at all and my life is not about me, well, then like, how do I help take care of others? How do I help? Right? So there's, there's a natural part of ambition that's really good, that is like do something. And whenever you do something that's beautiful, that's good. And if you think that doing something will mean now you'll no longer be depressed, or now it'll bring you ultimate happiness or you'll, you'll get all this money and then everything will be good. Like, no, that's also a myth. That is obviously not true. And it's the pursuit of your own vanity or your own thing, those all can become hollow. So that type of ambition, I'd be like, well, it's a hollow ambition, but there's also like really beautiful ambition to create.
If you're always kind of checking your own soul's like thermometer on. Why do I do what I do? Is it out of selfishness? Is it out of like vain? What is it for And I would never say to anyone that did something like, beautiful in art, like, I wish you weren't ambitious. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I. Of course I want there to be ambition, but also just know that if you think it just comes down to, like, you being the greatest ever at this or you doing whatever that is, I think it ultimately will usually end poorly for those types of people. Not necessarily for what they create, but for just, like, your own soul. One of the things that I love, and I love to talk to creatives about it, is I actually think one of the most, like, creative things in the world artistically is sport. And people who play sports often are not called creative. But you're like, oh, my gosh, like, look back at whatever huge, like, athlete it is. And they're incredibly creative. They're incredibly motivated. I think the hard thing is the people that we put on the pedestal. Someone like Tiger Wood. And these are all. This is hard because it's like, I understand we put them on a pedestal and what society is. So I'm not trying to knock them as people, but just like the. When you put this person on a pedestal to become the greatest ever, if that's Tiger woods, if that's Michael Jordan, if that. Whatever it is, they're their creative drive and that ambition leads them to a place where, like, they end up dehumanizing their own self and their family. And that happens with great directors, that happens with great musicians, where it's like, great. You created this at what cost? Like, on one end? I don't know how to fully answer that. I'm really glad that Michael Jordan won six championships for the Bulls, and I loved every minute of it. And I loved Tiger. I, like, loved watching him.
But also I know what, like, toll and wrecking machine that did to a lot of people around them. And as a person that then calls myself, you know, a Christian, I realize that Christian values may be the antithesis sometimes of, like, our society's values. And that doesn't mean that they still. The other values can't be beautiful, but I just can see sometimes the shadow in it. And does the shadow outweigh certain cost?
So if you becoming the best filmmaker that you can comes at the expense of your children or your marriage or whatever it is, what do you value? And do you also not see the act of parenting or relationship as a creative endeavor as well? Because I think one of the myths is we. We tend to only think of the things that are publicly called art, like, artistically creative, when just like I said sports and parenting and relationships. Everything is a creative. And we're all creative beings, and so we try to sometimes give an emphasis to what society calls artistic and beautiful when really, like, there's so much beauty in everything that we do and in nature and in all these things. And if you're totally disconnected from that, you lose whatever that goodness is.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's really more like a way of being or living than it is like a section of. Of career or something.
[00:40:24] Speaker B: Right, right. And I think one of the difficult things. It's the same thing with pastors or anyone that's like, a professional Christian is it's so easy to lose, like, what your spirituality really is about.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: Because you feel all the pressure of being a professional, spiritual person. And I think that that kind of bleeds over into being a professional artist. You sometimes lose what art is about because there are so narratives and pressures.
[00:40:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's that same thing of, like, the crowd. If you're looking for the crowd's approval in art, where does that lead you? If you're looking for the crowd's approval in being a pastor or a worship leader.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Where does that lead you? You know?
[00:41:05] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: Yeah. That's good.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: And I mean, so many of the great artists and art that we love, it was reject. Like, it wasn't popular at the time.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: It's awesome. All right, last official question. Is there anything you currently feel like God may be calling you towards or to do that is kind of in this season of your life?
[00:41:23] Speaker B: Good question. I haven't been asked that since the pandemic. I realized, like, oh, my musical career is evolving. And so part of that was, like, I need to chase less meaning and, like, touring all the time, because it's really meaningful to be around my kids right now. Like, I coach my son's football team. My. My daughter's going to be a senior in high school this year. Really, being present as a dad is, like, a feeling that, like, yeah, I really feel called for that. But then I also want to create art into my. Like, I'm 38 right now, and I want to create art in my 40s and maybe even 50s with the brilliance. So that's going to evolve. And so I feel a calling for that. But I know how I approach my art is going to change. And so part of that calling for me is leaning into what are the disciplines as a songwriter and as a artist, that I want to continue to do this art and have it be meaningful, but then also not lose, like I said, like what I really value, which is like my relational side of when I look at the brilliance. For me it's a small band, it's the small things. But the first show that I ever had, my twins were like, I want to say like a month old and then we brought our twins in like a minivan. My twins are now 14 years old.
And it's amazing because every year like I've gotten to take my kids, each kid on like different, it's, you know, be similar. If you're any creative and you have kids, like it's fun to, to start being like, I'm going to teach you, I'm going to bring you in this thing. My kids on this latest record, like they, they all sing on this, they've all been a part of things, they've gone on tour, my son is starting to play bass, starting to do this. And there's just something so fun about like they're growing up with this relationship that I have with like their uncle John who like we're in a band together and it's not like we're the coolest band of them at all. But it's really this thing where like it's evolved and they, they value it. And so for me it's like I want to continue that and see them get into their 20s and then what is it going to look like for us to make like old man music? And they're like, man, dad's still making record, what is he doing? You know, like. But I love that. I love to like create from where I'm at. So like an example was, you know, 10 years ago I made a kids record and I. It's one of my favorite things we've ever done by far. It's one of those songs. There's a song called John Harrison and it's one of the dumbest songs I've ever written. But it's like also like production wise and everything about it. I love it so much. What is the music that I want to write to my kids when they're like going through heartbreak when they're having a baby. Those types of things are what inspire me as a creative person.
And so that's that I'm kind of preparing my heart. If you're like, what is God calling you to be like? I think I'm moving from the ambition of like my 20s and 30s.
Like 20s was maybe like let's do this. This is crazy. Who cares? It's just crazy. Like we're going on tour in a van and in my 30s of like, all right, I've lived in New York for a dec and, like, done this. And I've worked really, really, really hard and done these things that are cool and played a lot of things that are cool. But really, like, just at the end of the day still, what matters to me most is, like, my family and my friendships.
And so because of that, how do I still create art that, like, I'm still cool with my family and friends, which is a really weird goal, but that's kind of what I'm leaning into right now.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Let's get.
As a dad, I especially love that answer. Any resources or books or things that you'd recommend to people that feel called to create?
[00:44:50] Speaker B: I would suggest this is not. I mean, it can be. It can be a spiritual practice. But one of the things that I love is reading a lot more novels and then trying to talk about those novels with, like, other creatives who have different, like, creative ideas. So an example would be like, I've got a book club around this book called Lonesome Dove right now, which was like 1985 Pulitzer Prize winning book, Lonesome Dove. Larry McCurdy. I only found it because an interview where Stephen King was like, what is the greatest American novel? And without missing a beat, he said, lonesome dove, Larry McCurdy. And I was like, lonesome Dove. I looked it up as this Western from 1985, and I read it and I was like, pretty. I was moved. But it also was like, why is this hitting me? And so I started reading it, and then all these different creators started reading it. And then all of a sudden we're like, book club. We're all going to Montana to discuss this book. I mean, it's getting weird. But honestly, then, like, reading and getting into different books and different things took me on this path of like, okay, so when we're in a group critiquing something, how do we speak about values on, like, how you critique something? Because so much of taste can just be like, it's just this and you leave it. So I was like, what is a good structure? Like a good. Like a rubric for how you critique a meal or how you critique a film? And so Kate and I thought about it for quite some time, and we, like, created this rubric for judging something on, like, a five star system where essentially, you know, each star represents something. It could be something like, you know, execution. Another one could be service. Another one could be, well, every way that you're judging a different art form has different five. But then essentially you judge that piece of art based on the star that it represents. And then it gets an actual point system. And from that I have found, like, oh, my gosh. When I am now critiquing something, instead of just being like, I like it or don't like it, I really can talk about, like, enjoyment is its own start. I can enjoy a total B movie and be totally fine with it. I can be like, that was awesome. It's a total B movie. And I can tell you why I would call it a B movie. But I might enjoy that a lot more than what I would call, like, a really good A movie movie. I might have enjoyed it more. Right. And I feel like then it gives me once again, different language for like, what I am now trying to create and how I'm trying to look at. But that only happens because I learn how to, like, critique something that's out of my own skill range. Engaging with art that's outside of your own art and community and trying to be like. That's where I'm like, man, start reading a lot of books or doing something else that, you know, if you. If you engage in a certain art form, get into another art form.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: I love it. Awesome. Is there anything that people should go check out that you guys are doing right now?
[00:47:40] Speaker B: Yeah, we have a new record coming out this year. So I have an album that's done finishing visuals and album artwork, trying to finish that, and it's like, ready to go. But it's not a summer album. It's like an album about depression. So then I'm like, do I have to just sit on this until the fall? Which I think I do, but then it just feels terrible. So that's why I'm saying it's very funny that I have an album around anxiety and depression, and I'm feeling so much anxiety and depression around it right now.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: So method. Some method.
I want to just say thank you so much for jumping on and chatting. I do feel like there's a lot of really good bites of wisdom in there that I even. I'm going to be chewing on. And so I really do appreciate you and as a friend and as a collaborator of times, yes, I appreciate you.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Love you very much.
