Ryan Swanson | Head Writer of The Chosen

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with the writer Ryan Swanson. He's the head writer of the TV series the Chosen. When the Chosen was first suggested to me by my buddy Randy Shout Out, I did not expect to like it per se. And I remember years ago downloading this app and trying to mirror it to my tv and kids were running around. I was distracted and kind of. That was sort of the end of that for a while. But then time went on later and I was actually, actually at my in laws without a car. And we decided to start watching it. But then as we were like a few episodes in, it was like, just felt very deeply moved and not just on a spiritual level, but from a filmmaking perspective with the characters. And now we love it. We won't miss an episode. You know, they're in season five now. It's just really something special. I'm definitely not the only one who feels this way too. It's become kind of a phenomenon, if you haven't heard. But the full series has almost like over 800 million views. Like they could have a billion by the end of the season five. And there's a lot to love. But for me, this series has just brought the humanity of Jesus really to the forefront. Really the humanity of like the apostles and disciples, everyone. And so it's just. It's good storytelling and beautifully made. And Ryan is, like I said, the head writer there, and he's worked in industry for over 20 years. It's only in the past, like, few years or so that he's kind of in this faith space. But he's a really beautiful, honest testimony and coming to faith story. And I'll say to his credit, he didn't like, know me at all coming into this interview, and the power had gone out, so he was like in his car and he just dived right in with humility and vulnerability. We talk from, like rising success, crashing and burning, getting sober in aa, being rescued by the Lord, and then even to like, really practical advice for writing and callings. It was an honor to get to chat with him. Like I said, there was a power outage in his town when our session was scheduled. So the bad news is the audio quality is like a little lower than normal. But the good news is we have the full interview and it's a beautiful conversation and I think you're gonna love it. So let's jump right in. When did God become real to you? [00:02:00] Speaker B: That's a really good and important question. I. One of the things that I experienced early on was near death of a loved one. And I remember this was, this was something that stretched on for weeks. Would they, wouldn't they, would they, would they live? Will they die? And I remember the conversation that I had begun with Scott and it was, it was very young. Content was we think of as the stages of grief today. But I was doing those things, I was making those bargains, I was denying reality. I was doing all that with God because it was, it was a place where I wasn't also burdening family members. Now that, that just sounds all very young, but I think one of the things that I felt I understood at a really early age is that I could bring anything to God. Enough was, God was big enough for any of these problems at a time when I saw family members sort of running on fumes, emotionally raw nerves everywhere. These were conversations that I had freely, intimately and constantly with Scott. And so that, that was a product of, you know, I was raised Methodist in suburban Minnesota. I, I, I don't recall when that all sort of gained traction, but I know when it manifested in this moment when I really needed it, that was something that continued. You know, my, my confirmation felt like I understood the ways of worship. When I finally hit my knees for a couple years, not taking a sober breath, the advantage of knowing I was, that God was there. Even through all the sort of, you know, self serving self worship that it didn't happen to me. I directed myself that way. I knew that when I did turn it over that he would take it. And so it's a real advantage to, you know, because I watched other guys struggle through that process of getting sober. And for them the barrier of entry was does this work? Does, does this 12 step process work? Do these professionals know what they're talking about? Is there a God, AA's reliance on higher power. There's language in that says higher power as we understood him. Because the, although the early authors were Christians, they, they didn't want to be exclusive. They knew that alcohol wouldn't discriminate. But watching guys go through it and, and struggle with, with those entry questions, it's, it's, it's real. I think this dovetails into we choose to the chosen anyway with the chosen. How we've chosen to spin that story. When you're in rehab with guys who have just come out of a fog and don't know if there is a higher power, much less what they understand it to be, the narrative has to build the house before you haunt it. You know, to, to borrow the old horrors, you have to Take the time to do the footwork to say we are creatures with a God sized hole. [00:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:34] Speaker B: And then you have to introduce that whole reality of what that looks like in the absence of God. So that when grace comes, which is never earned, which creates, as Caleb will tell you, and I'm sure you've encountered, too, Nathan, a big narrative problem because how do you take a bunch of steps, do the right thing, relearn, get your buddies together, come up with a great plan and you know, the radio man in the end fixes everything. Yeah, I'm mixing genres there. I think of the. The submarine movies always end with the radio guy saving the day or sabotaging the whole ship. You never know. But you have to do the footwork, you know. And so that was a. That was a really interesting and scalable firsthand experience with watching guys build something from nothing, build a foundation of faith, of relationship, of, like I said, you know, whatever they came to understand. But the important part was that there was a God big enough to care about you. Because if you don't believe something is out there caring about you, then you have to care about yourself. And so that's what I watched. That is an epidemic recovery communities is. People are coming out of constant worry about themselves. And it looks different ways. It sounds like I'm disparaging the whole, the whole community, but these are agreed upon conditions once the tide starts to turn. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Yeah, sounds good. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Anyway, so it's been various times in my life, but I think it started very early. [00:07:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker A: So you kind of felt like you knew that God was real, that he existed to some degree and that was kind of the foundation. And so that feels pretty similar to me in the sense that I'm like. I feel like I've. I don't know when I didn't think he was real, but I think there is a whole other thing of like, did I think that he was good in the way that I thought was good? Did I think that I really need to do everything that's said to do in the Bible? Is the Bible really what he's exactly saying? You know, I felt like there's all these. Did God really say, you know, in hindsight that's what the devil says. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:42] Speaker A: But you know, I feel like there was a lot of these that. And I felt like that path of trying to do it my own way, at least for me it was like in my own similar but different way, it was addictions that I couldn't get out of and just getting deeper and deeper. But it's Interesting. I do feel like, while there was a change in me to be like, okay, I'm gonna start taking you more literally and just believe what your word says, even though I'm not sure that's the interpretation, but my life sucks, and this is miserable, so I'm gonna try. And I did try, and I did fail. And yet I feel like it was in that trying that. That grace you mentioned came, and it was, like, started to pull me out of the pits, even though I could never really earn it or do it. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Myself, you know, it's a lot easier that way. But. But, you know, God gave you a brain, too, and these. These questions, you know, he gave you discernment, and I am a testament to the journey, if nothing, you know. [00:08:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I've noticed a very interesting dynamic, especially as. As I spent time working at a church and sort of gives you a certain perspective. But I. I've noticed that the more mature someone gets in their sort of walk with God, the less he gives them any specific answers about things. Because the point is to grow us up and give us discernment and give us wisdom. And it's. After a while, it's kind of. I. Tim Keller, used the analogy of, like, when you're in college, you don't need to call your parents and ask if you can go out and play Frisbee. Like, when you're seven, that's appropriate, you ask your parents if you can go out and play Frisbee. But at that point, you should know. And I have noticed that he gets, like, more and more hands off, but not. It's not a negative thing. It's not an abandonment thing. It's a. You're old enough to try this now sort of thing, you know, like you were saying, like, he does give you a mind. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's been my experience, man. Yeah. [00:09:37] Speaker A: Is there a moment in that sobriety journey and when you started to see him show up in a different way, or do you feel like it's, like, just been this steady thing that's always been there? [00:09:46] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, yeah. Nathan. There was a huge shift. It goes to what you were saying about, you know, spying or putting. Putting even one foot down in front of the other. The differences felt to me immediate. I'm having an emotional reaction thinking about, there was an old Jesuit named DJ Place that I sought help. He was offering consultations on the third step of the steps of the tradition. I got sober in, and I was like, I'll take this. I went into Jesuit thinking. Let me hear him Tell it. I've got some thoughts too. And I walked into there and the, the third step says, we turned our will in our lives over the power of God, of our understanding. And I sat in a chair and folded my arms. He sat in the chair and leaned in and he said, how can I help you, man? I was so uncomfortable with silence then, you know, I couldn't even sit in that space of like. Just had to produce his image of me, right? His. His impression of me. So I started going on about, you know, things I'd learned in religion studies minor and about having grown up with the faith. And he listened for a beat and took a sort of dramatic pause. And he had been. He'd had a stroke several years earlier, so, so one. One part of his face wasn't as mobile, but it gave him, gave him the impression that he was sort of looking at me through pretty skeptical, skeptical lids. And he said, with your alcohol drenched brain, do you think you're going to be the first to come up with the answers to these questions? What you need is solitude. Go to your room, put your arms out at your side and fall down on your bed. Stay there for as long as you can. Tell me to go to my room. Essentially, I was in my 30s and I was being told by a stranger in authority to go to my room. So I did that. I was very broken. I was very much. I had hit real bottom. And I went there and I fell and I kind of. I. I did, I did it exactly as prescribed. I was that willing to do whatever. I put, I actually put my arms out, fell in bed. I kind of felt cattywampus on it. So I was like, my legs were across one corner, my head across another diagonally. And I was looking at the carpet and I was like, come on, something, give me something. And I fell asleep like that. I woke up, I realized I was 10 minutes late for chow. So I, I go out, the hallway is totally empty. I start, you know, sort of trotting down to lunch and DJ comes around the corner and I stop him. And I said, dj, I did the thing and looks at me sort of quizzically. I'm like, I'm the guy. You told me to go to my room. I went. And he said, oh, yeah? How do you feel? And I said, I was going to say, I don't know what I was going to say. And then I paused and I was like, I'll be honest. And I said, I don't know, man. I just feel kind of blank. And this Guy lit up. I swear, both sides of his face lit up. And he looked at me and said, do it again tomorrow. And it was. It was such a God shot, because God was saying, I'm done with your questions. What if you just come in? Just be right. Recognize you've got enough oxygen, you've got a roof over your head, you're not starving, you've got everything you need. Take a beat. And then if you have questions, come back. Take a beat. And it was probably the first time in five years my mind hadn't been racing. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Wow. [00:13:44] Speaker B: And that felt like grace. [00:13:46] Speaker A: That's really beautiful. [00:13:47] Speaker B: I started to become open to the next right thing. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Man, that's beautiful. [00:13:52] Speaker C: I was just gonna say. I was like, that is an exercise, recovery or no, I think for most writers, right? As a mentor of mine put it, we work between our ears. And you were saying, you know, it's the first time in five years your mind stopped racing. And I think the racing mind is something so many writers are familiar with. So I'm just. I'm gonna agree with DJ and say to anyone listening, if you're a writer, go to your room. [00:14:20] Speaker B: So good advice. [00:14:22] Speaker A: So I've been directing and doing commercials and film stuff for a while, and I felt a time came when the Lord was like, I want you to try to write and make something with me. Like, you kind of, like, run away from me to do it because you're like. But I'm like, oh, it's self expression, right? I don't know how to do this with you. And I felt like he was calling me to do it with him. And that's not that long, but I was just curious to hear, especially as someone who's like, man, I love what you guys have been making, but do you feel like. And maybe this isn't the way you talk about it, but do you feel like there's a way to, like, write with the Lord? [00:14:53] Speaker B: That's a tough question because, you know, I really believe that God is in everything. So how then do I prepare myself to receive direction when I'm really listening for God actively? You know, things occurred to me that, you know, God didn't give me that God didn't give me the ant from my bedroom walls, you know, he. He. Of course. But of course he did. So. So, like, there's just things that sometimes we tell ourselves that we're like, is this God directed action? Is this. Is this the next right thing? I think so. For me, what it's been. And there are people who are. I Mean, I'm a spiritual toddler. So there are people who you know, have been, have had a practice or you know, there's just people we know that they're just like. They just wear their faith like a loose garment and it's just easy for them. And everything seems to flow almost preternaturally graceful and ease easy way. I'm not that. But what I do have is a. Is a need for God that thankfully comes from this disease of alcoholism that wants to kill me and make it look like an accident. I need God every day. My reprieve is based entirely on my spiritual condition. I'm so grateful. That dovetails with my work, which makes me go back into the Bible every day for something and outline a passage, a quote, whatever it might be. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker B: And if I stay in that place and I remember my job is to be honest, as Faulkner said, love my characters no more, no less than God. Which means that I acknowledge their foibles and I allow them to destroy themselves at times because. Because he does. And you know that fate plays a part in all our characters journeys. So if I come in, in that place, I'm on the right track and then I'm. I'm fortunate to have two guys who are also doing that in their own way, but just as honestly and just as readily. You know, we're each the three of us on this project of the chosen, all coming from a similar need for God every single day. That helps, you know, that, that sort of if, if I start to leave the trail like Tyler or Dallas or both are going to sort of shove me back onto it. Not because they think they have a greater connection, but because of the guardrails. We set up from the start that, you know, the answer to a character's to why something happened in a story meeting can never be. Well, because it's in the Bible. [00:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Why'd they do this? Well, I don't know that's in the Bible or like why did this thing happen? Well, God did it. Right. Like we're trying to pretend like the audience didn't come in on fire for Jesus and to walk you through a story that involves very human, very universal experiences that we know God always has a part in. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker B: A lot of it's been consistent from day one, how we work, who we're working with, the book, but that's been really important. So the Holy Spirit gets in there, but you need to a process for it. And we're able to maintain the integrity of our approach to the Bible because we don't have those outside influences that might make us crack. We're just fortunate in that we, we did this independently and we don't have to also put in a love triangle that didn't feel honest to our characters or speculate about what, what God looks like. So I think it made it easier to feel like we're writing and we're, and maybe we're not. I don't know. There's times when we're like, we're just doing the best we can. We love the Bible. We love the Bible and we love God. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Great answer. [00:19:09] Speaker B: We also get it wrong. Yeah. [00:19:12] Speaker C: That leads me into a craft question that I wanted to ask, which is. So you guys are, you're telling a story which has certain narrative elements non negotiably already included before you've done anything. And at the same time you have all these narrative elements that sort of, for lack of a better term, that you're in charge of the things that go into and out of the biblical stories, which are a pretty sketchy outline of three years, to be honest. Right. It takes, takes about an hour, hour to read one of the Gospels, but this is three years worth of action. So there's a lot of space in there. But at the same time you have to work towards and from these things that, that you're just, that you're just sort of serving up with nothing on it the way it is. How does that work when you're, when you're starting a story, is there a certain place that you start? Is there, does it change? You know, or maybe there's a specific example that you have of, of how that sort of worked particularly well or. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Interestingly at least that's a good writer's question. So we, you know, my, my approach is a lot like the approach to, to any adaptation which I got really lucky my first years in Hollywood and I, I ended up working for an Academy Award winning writer named Akiva Goldsman who has done preponderance of adaptations. So be they. John Grisham DC Comics Sylvia Nassar's biography of mathematician John Nash. He's, he's now doing Star Trek. The way he approached adaptations was to read it. Now let me qualify. This is, this process is different from our approach to the Bible. But his, his approach to adaptations was I read it once if I, and then I, and then when I'm finished then I do an outline and if I don't remember the detail, it doesn't go into the movie. If I need connective tissue between two points, I might go and review what happened in between and. And. And then start to, you know, construct going forward. But what we're doing is looking at the moments that as you. You called it sketchy. It's. It's just. It's per. It's purposed different. Right? Like the. The Bible has impact and authority intrinsically running through its DNA. It's every word is laid out perfectly. And so we know that Peter was out fishing all night. And we, we. The. The first question is professional fishermen just casting net all night? Like, we're like, he was desperate. He was desperate before the miracle, you know, and so that was a moment where we took what was exactly on the page and we put in the stuff that writers and trial attorneys do, which is motive, intent, and we go plausibly what could fit into this chain of events? And if it strikes any of us as implausible, if it strikes our interdisciplinary interfaith biblical consultants as Nathana or just right wrong, we likely don't use it. But in the same way Akiva would sort of think of what are the big movements of this story, and then he would make a movie out of that, which is really, as, you know, as both of you know, a really constraining medium. Screenwriting is extraordinarily unfree. Page count. We know to the page when a beat has to happen. And we look at the moments in the Bible that we're going to use and we say we're going to use that moment. And the difference between what Akiva does and what we do is we come in, we're like, we can't just borrow bookends here. We have to lift this whole section. And it happened exactly as it's written here. But we're not going to put our characters into plot bot mode and have them just go from A to B. We're going to motivate A to B. So this is actually going to go from A to C and B. That happened in between, that caused them to sort of leave their front door to go do these things. We. We bring story to them. And Jesus life is so well documented. It's so. It's so important. We don't do much editorializing or dramatizing what he does. We leave that to our characters whose shoulders we use to carry the camera. So we're walking around with Peter and Eden in season three, and we're seeing their whole journey about what it costs, spiritual and otherwise, to go on a mission, to leave behind a calling and to find a new one. And one you're not good at, you know, we get the sense that Peter was a good fisherman. This new thing, he's fumbling all the time. So what was that like? What was, you know, we know he had a wife. What was that the cost for her? And what might some of these moments as they intersect with Jesus mission, How might those strike him? [00:24:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:22] Speaker B: So, so season three was all about the relationship between Jesus and his disciple and missionary Peter. Cost of, of ministry, cost of believing. And you know, a lot of that was dramatized. But we knew we were building towards walk on water earlier in his story. We knew we were building towards a miraculous catch. We could have gone any dozen ways. I really believe in iterating until you get the one that feels like it's most honest to your character. I guess we could have just gone by sheer volume. The miracle of catching a lake full of fish in a single net could have brought him to his knees. But Jesus always gives us so much more. And so we chose the way we did. And that was our first controversy too because Tyler and I went that year just before COVID protocols to Israel and we spent four days with messianic rabbi who told us every single time we got in the car Peter wouldn't have fished on Sabbath. [00:25:33] Speaker A: It's funny, out of all the scenes that have gutted me the most and felt like the Lord was using to speak to me, when I see that walking on water scene and when Jesus pulls him out and is holding him and he keeps saying, don't let me go, don't let me go, man, that has been the cry of my own heart. And I'm sure you've heard this before about this scene. But it's, you know, I think I've watched it over and over again and cry every time because that is my cry to the Lord. You know, as I'm trying to be a good father and trying to really do these things I feel like he's calling me to do and I can slip up and, or try to do it in my own strength, you know. And then it's just this reminder of to be a childlike and don't let me go, don't let me go. You know, so it's just really beautiful and meant a lot to me and I think it's so clearly a mixture of like God at work and craft and this co creating and I just, I love what you guys have made and which I kind of wanted to ask too. Like I want to phrase this the right way. There are some faith based stuff that doesn't land for us. Maybe some does, some doesn't. I feel like more. There's been more and more stuff that has been meaningful. I think the chosen has been a big part of that. As someone who's working in this space, could you speak into maybe what stands in the way of some of the faith based stuff we see that is not landing or feels false? [00:27:02] Speaker B: Hear you, Nathan. And it is, it's a tricky thing because I always appreciate where the filmmakers are coming from, you know, and I think you do too, which is why it's like we, you know, we don't want to eat our own. And so we've all been there. Right? [00:27:20] Speaker A: It's hard enough to make anything. [00:27:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so hard. You know, it's making anything is so hard. It's always blood, sweat and tears. There's never enough time. There's resources are always hard to come by. [00:27:35] Speaker A: I've made this approach. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, I have too and tried to do craft, just purely craft exercises that ended up soulless. So here's what I see from 15,000ft is that and, and, and this is, you know, based on things I've heard from, from producers, both at the, the studio level, from faith based producers, from fellow filmmakers is there is, there is never a dearth of good filmmakers. There's never any shortage of faithful. There is not always that inspired person who also has a lot of experience making film when they start now. This isn't to say anybody out there doing work that didn't grab my attention that the work's not as good, they're not as good. But I spent 16 years in Hollywood before I ever even turned my eyes or thought about doing anything that might be biblical or have faith implications. You know, my feeling is that a movie like Chariots of Fire is a faith affirming storehouse film that leaves me in awe of what God does. There's other movies. Life is beautiful. There are other movies I can think of that have that I don't think God has mentioned once where I'm just blown away by grace or his power or he can change a life. So one of the things, killer things for me, killer apps. One of my big advantages is that I love horror movies. I'm going somewhere with this. Horror movies. [00:29:24] Speaker C: I love horror movies too. [00:29:25] Speaker B: So. [00:29:26] Speaker A: So yeah, John Quinn also loves horror movies. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Loves horror movies. Horror movie cannot assume the audience is going to come in terrified if you assume that the audience is already freaking out. As soon as those lights go down, you can do anything you want. You just start with a guy in a scary mask running around and we're all, we're already terrified. So you can do no wrong. The general public does not walk around in that state. And most ticket buyers don't come in with that expectation. Oddly, some of the faith based stuff I've seen does. It assumes you come in as on fire for Jesus as they are. And they do none of the work to show why these characters need to rely entirely on the God of the universe. The creator of the universe will do this. Why, why, why can't they just go to the post office and mail a complaint letter? Why is God going to do it? Why do they have to, you know, go to their spouse and hit their knees? We had to do the footwork to tell just as honestly why Frodo couldn't walk directly from the Shire to Mordor and just throw the ring in. He was, he was beset every, every corner by the Ringwraiths, humans who wanted that power, wizards, a little Smeagol. You had to show and build towards that. And that's what a midpoint is. That's footwork. And midpoints are everything to me because you show what a character does like on their. With their own ideas, oblivious to the truth. At the beginning of the movie, they leave an unsatisfying status quo because something happens where they have to make a choice. They can't turn back from that choice. So now they're on a journey, but they haven't. Nothing in their heads have changed yet. Nothing in their heart has changed yet. And they, they get to act out what they think is the solution to their problem. And about halfway through they go, holy crap, this isn't going to work. I got to band together with these six guys who are trying to stop me because they're not trying to kill me like the other six guys. I got a band together with these guys and we're a team now, which is very uncomfortable. It's everything I didn't think I wanted when I started the journey. And once I give into it, everything opens up and problems that used to baffle me are now handled intuitively. I can start to be more of who I wanted to be at the beginning of this journey. And we're still going to face monumental hurdles, but in the end, together we're going to throw this ring into the volcano. What if they had just opened up and like, with no context of who these other people were that had joined the group. What if you opened with no context of who the Ringwraiths were or the Magic or the orcs in Middle Earth. I mean, it would. It would be absurd, right? But it happens because people start the process on fire, and they're like, that's where I'm going to start from. I think that what we. What we really tried to avoid was we're all following Dallas's lead in this one. And Dallas was like a lot of really great filmmakers before him who blazed trails. He just grew up watching all of these, and he wasn't seeing the God that he knew. He wasn't seeing a Jesus that he knew on screen. And so not in defiance of these other portrayals, but in support of what was he had in his own heart. He just, as a filmmaker, wanted to put that on screen. And he reached out to other similarly motivated filmmakers at first. And so that's what we did. And also, no one was ever gonna see this, so let's just go for it. Yeah, that's a. [00:33:38] Speaker C: That's a great mindset. No one's gonna see it, so let's just go for it. Your story analysis of, like, starting with what you think is gonna solve the problem, but your mind and heart hasn't changed over time. They do kind of, I think, is probably a good description of your journey as a writer. And one question that we tend to ask people is, it's about ambition. But I'm going to tweak that a little bit and talk about success. You know, you had a. What most people would define as a successful beginning, had difficulty dealing with that success, which led you into drug and alcohol abuse, if that's how you would characterize it. And then you went through this program that DJ was a part of and everything and sort of found your way back out and are writing again. And I'm just curious how your definition of success, success as a storyteller has changed over the years through this process. [00:34:32] Speaker B: That. That's an experience question. Thanks for. Thanks for it. I think it. I don't have a ready answer, but I can tell you what it's looked like on. On the show. And this is very much, I think, like a life of faith and a sober life. Is that all we're ever fighting for is to do yesterday again, to get it more right today than we got it yesterday. And a good day for me in sobriety is that I don't create new resentments among my fellows. I show up as a good son, a partner, a worker, or a yeoman spirit. I don't lie. And, yeah, I don't. I don't pick up a drink Or a drug help other alcoholics who are still suffering to whatever degree God puts in my path. The same thing is true for filmmaking, probably for all of us who are artists. We feel like there is. There are a few faces on that Mount Rushmore or a few pinnacles in human achievement. Something affected you so profoundly that it feels perfect. It's hard to see our own work that way. And so just even the chance to get to do it again tomorrow feels like success. The other marker is in going back to the author of a book, Bird by Bird, which is a sort of artist's way through process. How do we take on this big assignment to catalog all the birds in the animal kingdom? Mary's mother's advice was Bird by Bird. And so that became the title of this book, which sort of walks you as an artist through each stage. You know, you're always trying to accomplish something, and it doesn't mean it's going to come together as a unified whole, but that's the most you can do at any given time. And we especially, even if we, as we get better at sort of marrying the small steps we're taking on into something like a unified whole, we certainly can't predict what impact it's going to have or how an audience is going to hear it. We can only do that part of the process, honestly, and that's all that's in our control. So when I can handle the little tasks and I do them in a way that's collaborative or maybe requires a little more forth. You know, we always say as a collaborative writing effort that we have an honest discussion about these things. And if. If there's a writer way, we go with that. And if it's 50, 50, we go with whoever's more passionate. And then there are a few other markers that we use after that to. To wait an argument. [00:37:22] Speaker A: But mostly arm wrestling, I'm sure mostly arm wrestling. [00:37:25] Speaker B: We try not to create any resentment is what we're trying to do, because we are three spiritual guys who, gosh, we're okay with confrontation. We live in a space of confrontation. But at the end of the day, we're all unified in purpose. And we all love this material. We all base our lives on the material. So we can't. Can't allow anything to cloud that. But success is handling the little tasks and doing them as well as I possibly can, as well as I've ever done them before. And to try to raise the bar each time and then getting a chance to do it again tomorrow. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Okay, so the question I Wanted to ask you, as a writer, have you found any patterns to the moments you get inspired? Whether it's like an idea for a film or a scene that's interesting. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Curious to know what other people say. You know, I find ideas, their due date is. Is unpredictable. There are times when we. We all have to just wake up and. And plump. You know, I. One time I. When I was working really closely with Akiva Goldsman, I went in and I told him, you know, he asked me, did you. Did you finish that scene we were talking about yesterday? I said, I got to, man, I'm feeling a little bit blocked. I just. I feel like I'm. I'm like. I have, right? He's like, kiddo, you're a plumber. Get your tools. Use gravity to your advantage. Put in a U joint so the vapor doesn't come back in the bathroom. I mean, he was like. And he broke it down very simply to say that there are times when we just. We need to let process lead. Right? [00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:06] Speaker B: So we know what to do. Let's put one foot in front of the other and actually just. Just move through a scene knowing that the writing is in the rewriting. So he was very much a process advocate. But then there are ideas that are, you know, just. Even for what a project could be or a new project or how a character may have responded that feel like real inspiration. And sometimes they're instantly born. There's other times I have to take a shower on them or 10 showers, or walk around the Rose bowl, you know, to sort of work out. I am often inspired when I'm clicking through what feels, to so many viewers, laborious. When you're going through endless thumbnails of. In your user interface, like, be it on Amazon or Netflix or anything like that, I'll be reminded of a title or even the way a movie made me feel from way back when. And I need to see some of the imagery from it instantly. [00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Noah Hawley is doing the Aliens. Aliens Nation, I think it's called. It's. It's. It's a television spin off of the Alien franchise. The Ridley Scott first. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Brought in 1979. I saw they were using the old, like, flight deck. You know, it just that. That seventies sci fi feeling. And I was like, man, it sent me down this rabbit hole of, like, Logan's Run and like, like so many things, Roger Corman movies from that era. So I. I get a lot out of. Because I was a video store kid, I get a lot out of just, like, looking at the titles. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I know. Going through, like an old vintage bookshop. To me, just seeing the covers and the titles has definitely been like. Yeah. Like, I don't know what that movie is, but I know what I want it to be. You know, that's right. [00:41:10] Speaker B: When you're in that place, when you're like, that's cool. I totally know what that made me feel. I mean. And honestly, just to link it back to the chosen, that's always our North Star, too, is not. How do we immediately take what's in that book with authority and provenance and just slap it onto a screenplay? But how did it make us feel? And we can let that be the driver through, you know, our surrogate characters experience there. But yeah, old bookstores are amazing. I don't know. You know, I was. I was. I was in a school recently and I smelled the bathroom. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Maybe super nostalgic for, like, like, not only school, but, like, all the things I was consuming during those years. [00:42:03] Speaker A: You know, you're like, it's time to write a coming of age story now that I've smelt the pencil sharpeners. [00:42:10] Speaker B: No, I was thinking, like, the Goonies is such a. Is like. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's. [00:42:15] Speaker B: That was my, you know, blue sky back then. [00:42:19] Speaker A: At this point in your life, like, how do you find. Define success versus maybe an older version of yourself? Like, what do you. Nowadays. What does that feel like? It's good. I like it. Do you have any advice for someone who feels called to create? Like, any advice you would give to someone who's like, maybe on the earlier side of that. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Gosh, it's the same advice that I give people whether they feel called or just ambitious or just, it looks cool or like, you know, gosh, they just saw an interview, a podcast interview with this guy who. Who writes and his life seems cool. Like, whatever the reason, whatever stage you're at, just do it. Do some version of it. You have to get out there. Right. Like, you. You cannot synthesize the experience. You got Nathan on your first set directing. There was just no other way to prep. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:11] Speaker B: For job number two, except to take the experience from job one. And you can't even know what you don't know until you've tried to do it. The other thing. And it was super helpful to me because. And we talked a little bit about this because I didn't have anything so specific as screenwriting, which even if I had, I wouldn't have understood how to sort of write for an audience. Is that you? [00:43:35] Speaker A: You. [00:43:35] Speaker B: You Want to try to learn as much about the art form as possible. Be a student of the art form. And then I heard this awesome thing the other day. I think this is true, but it. But it's something that's earned. But it was great advice and I wanted to share it. It was to do the thing that you think you love for love. So, and not just for the love of it, because you may not have the love of it yet. You might just be fascinated with it. You might feel the calling and go, this is the last thing in the world I want to do, but God won't take it off my heart until I try it. Pretend you're doing it for somebody you love and you have to present it to them as a gift of love. Tom Sachs said this. He's an industrial designer and artist who's worked with NASA, Nike and IKEA recently. He was saying, when I was first doing those sculptures, the first one I ever did, which was he. He recreates like commonplace objects from other materials. It sounds totally pedestrian and maybe not even cool. But then when you see these things and you're like, oh, my gosh, the detail that I have to get like, you know, within three inches to actually pick up. There is resin on the pages of this phone book that are placed in such a way as to make a couch. Not just any couch, but the classic couch, in his opinion, which is sort of this mid century modern square with an attached loveseat. And the first one he ever did was Leica camera for his father, who couldn't afford one out of clay. And he glazed it and made it and everything. And he was working so diligently on it because he knew it was for his father. And he was like, that's the motivation I want to carry through the rest of my life. And so he always calls on that. What if I had to present this as an object of love to my partner? [00:45:33] Speaker A: That's so cool. I love that way of thinking about it that reminds me of Rick Rubin talks about doing something. I don't even know what his belief system is, but he talks about doing something as an act of worship. And he's like, not for the audience, but just as good as you can, you know, realistically. But like, as good as you can spend the time in the details. The idea is, oh, it's an act of worship. And I felt like, even as a believer that I've connected with that. To me, what you're saying, like, to do it, present it as an act of love, it's so much crossover there in the sense that if you were God and you loved your children, how would you want work to look like for them? And I have a feeling it would look a lot like being able to spend time with the details. [00:46:12] Speaker C: Yeah, there's something about the sort of. The love that sets calling apart right from occupation or job or career, because all of those are contingent on some amount of worldly success in order to have their definition, you know, but good point. If scripture teaches us anything, it's that calling and worldly success are. Can be mutually exclusive. And so being called to do something, it's not any sort of guarantee. Right. Of worldly success, but it's an opportunity for faithfulness. It's an opportunity for. To display love through what you do. But that's, you know, I think that's what makes calling different from, from those, from the other terms because they all sort of need some worldly success to exist. [00:46:59] Speaker B: Those are both such good observations. And I love tying it back to. That's hilarious what you said, by the way, that the Bible teaches us nothing if not that calling and worldly success can be mutually exclusive. That is. Amen. So. So. But yeah, at the end of. I think you, you just have to do it, give in, listen to it, carve out. It doesn't matter what. What we accomplish right. In a given time period. The work will teach us how to do it. Yeah, like maybe it takes you six months to. To do the prep for a screenplay. That's what I found that, that the prep was the majority of my time. That actually if I can make as many choices as possible in the outline, that then I'm not paralyzed later on whether or not this is a conversation, two people walking or sitting in a cafe or at the end of the pier or in a car are having, you know, those choices are off the table. But I need to do the prep beforehand. And you would only. I only figured that out on my like, sixth screenplay. Trust the process and listen to it. [00:48:06] Speaker C: Prior to smartphones, I could set the home screen of my little flip phone with like, I could put some words on it. And that was pretty much it. And so for years I just had on there writers write. Just every time I opened my phone just to sort of remind me that thinking about doing it and wanting to do it and even trying to learn how to do it better if I'm not actually doing it throughout that process, if I'm not, like you said, just trying, trying to put things on the page and learn from it and put things on the next page and learn from it. Then I'm a, I don't know, maybe I'm a writing theorist, but not a writer if there's not pages being made, you know. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Yeah, and I was saying before, I was saying about ideas that, you know, you never know when their due date is. Maybe this time that thinking about it has been helpful in some way. But today's the day, you know what I mean? Or when it hits you and you hear it. Try it. For me, it starts with knowing where a story starts and ends. And then I think about what a crazy journey that person would have had to go through for that person at the beginning to now be accomplishing this thing. And that helps me figure out where about a midpoint would be, you know, and then you build out from there. This is hard. It's hard because people have lives and that stuff feels really, really pressing and gosh, all consuming and bodies are tired. But in my experience, anyway, God won't let you out of it until you try. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:41] Speaker C: If there's anything else the Bible teaches, it's just do it the first time God says it. [00:49:48] Speaker A: Easier said than done, but it's true. [00:49:51] Speaker B: There's not much negotiating you can do there. [00:49:55] Speaker A: So speaking of God telling us to do things, is there anything you currently feel like that God might be calling you towards and like, doesn't have to be art related, but is there anything on your radar prompting you? [00:50:07] Speaker B: I think, you know, I think God, I think God wants me to continue to try to connect better with other people and with myself. Okay. And the thing that is sometimes a barrier are, you know, dramas from my past, you know, family predispositions, you know, and so this is all leading me to say I, I've really been pretty psyched about therapy lately, taking my mental health really seriously so that I can, I can be a better son and a better partner and a better worker. And I can do that without so much bondage of self that, you know, and that works in tandem with the work I'm doing in the Bible and at church and how to show up, how to set aside everything that I thought I knew coming into the door and be open to a new experience. You know, sometimes the only barrier to that is me. So I think that God has been leading me to continue to do work on myself and, and that, you know, that that can be a self seeking exercise if it's not sort of offset with continued work with my co writers, my family, my church. But it has been something that has appeared as the next Right step for. For a little while. And I'll use the. The chosen. And for some people, it's the. The birth of a child or maybe it's getting married. But as your world expands and you are drawn into contact with more people in situations that are unfamiliar or new, that we want to show up more and more as ourself, you know, I think God wants me to take that space and to be really proudly an ally of his. And I can only do that if I'm sort of free of me. So I don't know. That's not the answer. [00:52:14] Speaker A: That is the answer. If I can just tell you how much I relate to that and feel like the Lord has blessed me on that same thing. The idea of loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. I feel I came to realize that too. Oh, my heart's there, but I'm not so sure that my mind is always there. And I felt like the Lord brought me into, like, with a Christian therapist. And it was way more insane of an experience than I was expecting. It felt like going into the dark abyss of the things I've been afraid of, but then inviting the Lord into it and finding healing, you know, from the past. And so I. All that to say is just like, you know, cheer that on. Like, my film Flesh and Blood is essentially about that idea of, like, what it feels like to go into that space and sort of like, bring the Lord to. Me and my wife are. We kind of went from being like, Oklahoma, Vibes, where we're like, we don't need therapy. We got God, to now being like, oh, it's a God. We can use it as an instrument, you know. [00:53:15] Speaker C: So this month is five years for me in therapy on a weekly basis. And I think it's really important, not just for humans, but I think it's particularly important for writers because so much of your ability to do your job involves sort of knowing the human heart. And the more we know ours, the more. The more alive our characters can become and all that sort of stuff. That said, don't do it to become a better writer. Do it because. Because knowing yourself better, better understanding the dark corners of your heart, so to speak, makes you better at loving those around you, really. Like, you know, like Ryan was saying, like to be a better son and father and partner and all that to say. I think. I think all three of us, three out of three writers recommend therapy. [00:54:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:05] Speaker A: Can confirm just the last little, like, logistical question. Any resources or books or habits you would recommend. [00:54:13] Speaker B: That's a Dilly of a pickle. As my grandmother from Missouri once say. Yes. And I think that it's gotta be qualified by. Not everything works for everybody. And everybody is going to find their way into stories in a very different way. I've known writers who just. Who start with lengthy biographies of the characters they're doing and then they're just. They start with the simplest premise and say go and they can work their way through a screenplay. I have a very different prep process that I just kind of laid out which starts with an outline that takes me through, you know, critical beats in the story. And you know, and then there's my mentor Akiba, who was a McKee acolyte who believed in rhythms and in the. The drama came from central dramatic question and all of the things that McKee and his book story lay out. I think McKee is super helpful for some people. It was not for me and I know that because I worked with Akiva and I saw him work and I could see him sort of rhythmically beat out an act. I was a fly on the wall for a meeting between Vince Gilligan, Akiva and Michael Mann. And they were talking about the movie that became Hancock. It was before this, before Breaking Bad. And Akiva knew Vince from having been in Chris Carter's sort of bullpen of X Files writers across the hall from him and Building 81 at Warner Brothers. I listened to these two guys argue about four act structure versus McKee. And it was incredible. I had that moment where I was like, I wish I was smarter to take all of this in or you know, I was. I was early in my career, but I was. But that's Vince's take is that everything is four act. Every story is actually four acts. And so it dovetails nicely with his continued work in tv. I was a Sid Field guy. That was my first. That was the first book that made sense to me. In Play by Syd Field. I've since gone on to Save the Cat. I've read the book called how to make how to write Movies for Money and Fame. Very tongue in cheek title. Thomas Lennon and Ben Guran. Okay, Lennon and Guerant. They were the most rightness writing doctors for any comedy in the. In the aughts and early teens. They and I met them on Starskin Hutch. Their work on Reno911 is part of it. But. But they. They were fantastic and their book is. Is great too. The other thing is just dude, you got to watch movies. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:56:58] Speaker B: I remember the first time I saw Rashomon I was like, what is this? And ever since then, I've used, like, that's like, it's. It's now like a ubiquitous brand name for. For those who don't know, a Kurosawa movie, you know, it's told from three perspectives. [00:57:16] Speaker C: And you can see that in the chosen. That sort of. That approach. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Yes, we have employed the Rashomon, and I had no expectations for this movie. And I think that's the great thing is that you know so many other disciplines to learn them. You come in and go, what did they do wrong? How can I avoid these. These. These pitfalls? I think with writing, you have to come into things and go, what's working? Because that's an. That's an editorial mandate now. And it helps you exclude the bad stuff, just like that other approach. But when you watch a movie that isn't great and you go, movies are so hard and laborious to make. What would have kept somebody working on this? And you're looking for the things that worked. I love the color palette or I love those scenes during the chase. It was so great. If you could do that with your own work and with your coworkers work and the work you're producing or a script that comes in for you, direct and find what's working. I think that's the key to moving forward, and I think it's a key for going through any of the supplementary stuff, too, is to go, what from this works? And then I take it out la carte and just leave the rest. That's really good for me. Screenplay was a revelation because I never went to film school where they teach in, you know, screenwriting 101, the eight beats of a feature screenplay, you know, with the act breaks and the midpoint and, you know, the things, you know. So to see it laid out, like, for him was super helpful. But, yeah, look for what's working. [00:58:56] Speaker A: Yeah, Even as a filmmaker, like, I learned this the hard way in directing early on, you're giving an actor direction. You can't give direction away from something. You can only give direction towards something. And so that same idea of, like, what is actually working the most about what they're doing and trying to, like, bring that out more. It's been way more fruitful than being, you know, the Vorce version is like, don't be weird. You know, that's strange. But, you know, just going towards something is versus a weird. [00:59:27] Speaker B: Try it likable this time. That's really interesting. That's the first time I've heard that. So that's really cool, too. You never know what you're going to get. [00:59:36] Speaker A: So thank you so much for doing this. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Thanks for having us. [00:59:39] Speaker A: And I'm excited for everybody to get to hear it. So many great moments in there. Is it cool if I just say a quick prayer for you and then we'll close out? Awesome. Lord, I thank you that you're at work. I thank you that you are good. I thank you that each person here has been rescued by you. And not just rescued, but blessed. I pray you continue to bless Ryan and his work, Father. Just the continual process is like bringing the humanity of Christ in a way that people can see it. Lord. Just put your hands upon all three of them and their whole team, Father. And I pray you bless his relationships, Lord, his healing through therapy stuff his every person he comes in contact with. Lord, I pray that you give him eyes to see you at work, Lord. I pray that over for all of us, Father. And may we create honest and beautiful work that is an act of worship to you, an act of love to you, Lord. And we thank you in Jesus name, amen. [01:00:29] Speaker B: Thank you. Love your work.