Harry Yoon | Film editor

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with film editor Harry Yoon. His films include Oscar winning Minare, which is a film my wife and I, we watched together. Love, Cried, Laughed, Netflix's Beef is another one. And then newly, the Fire Inside, which is a great film. We both watched it, loved it. It has a mid-90s score on Rotten Tomatoes and Audiences, which is kind of a really rare combo, so you can rent that anywhere. And then lastly, coming out May 2 is the film Thunderbolts he's an editor on as well. It's the newest Marvel film, but it looks, I don't know, it looks. Looks a little different special to me. In a way. It looks cool. So that's May 2nd. I could talk about his work forever, but his openness with his faith is awesome. It's just really encouraging. I guess it's like hearing him talk about the first time God felt real genuinely to him and even how now he thinks of his editing room as a ministry space. It's just this mix of faith and practicality that I really enjoyed. So without further ado, let's. Let's jump on in. I. My first time, that really jumped out at me hearing you speak. I've followed your work and love it. But you mentioned something about like a prayer time with. It was either for a screening or for some editing sessions or both. Or can you kind of tell me that story a little bit or like what was going on there and which project that was. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Sure. It kind of started with a pilot that I was doing. It was a sci fi pilot based upon. Set in the future, based upon this crew of people that goes to sort of explore Mars, to colonize Mars. And as your audience might know who are familiar with filmmaking, pilots are really intensive endeavors. Like you shoot and then you cut in a really short time frame to have a proof of concept that a network chooses to. To get or not. And we were, we had this one note about upping the. The drama of the pilot up front and in particular to introduce, you know, the person who is going to be one of the main characters earlier on. But that's not the way that the script was structured. And so we were up one late. We were up late trying to figure it out. It was all the showrunners, the key writers, you know, and me and the director. And we were all brainstorming and having a tough time. It was an intense time. And I just sort of stepped outside of my room and ostensibly it was to use the restroom. Cause it was like, I don't know, 9pm and we'd been going for hours, but then on the way back, I just said this like, little prayer saying, like, just inviting, you know, a God that I knew to be a creative God and who just, you know, from everything that I knew really delighted in creativity and the act of creation. And I said, and I invited him into this process. And then I went to the restroom and then on my way out, I just got this like, idea that popped into my head of like, oh, like, what if, what if we use this one sequence that appears much later, we moved it to the front and it's short, it's exciting. And instead of playing out the whole thing, we just play like a little clip that ends in a kind of question. And, and I was so excited, I, I walked in, shared the idea. We, we put it into place right there and then and it just solved the problem. And I was just like, I guess, I guess I never sort of thought about saying a prayer like, like that, you know, while in, while you're in the middle of a creative problem. And also sort of inviting, inviting the Lord to be a part of something that felt, I guess, sort of away from what we normally think of as sacred. You know, like, I'm not asking him to heal anyone or to, you know, to grant me, you know, some sort of career path change or, you know, the ways that we normally sort of associate prayer with, but just inviting him into this creative space. And so I think that experience was so exciting for me and it started to change the way that I looked at involving and, and, and, and thinking about being in partnership with the Holy Spirit in my day to day. And so what I started to do is I started to set an alarm every day at around 3 o' clock, which is kind of like when, you know, lunch is kind of kicking in. You really need that second cup of coffee and you might need a little bit of inspiration. And I just called it my Holy Spirit alarm. And whatever I was doing, particularly, you know, in the times in which, you know, if I was working alone, I would just stop and say a prayer. And it ended up being an invitation to, to the Holy Spirit to participate in whatever I was working on creatively. But it was also a chance to maybe repent for something I might have done that morning, to say, like, oh, I, I think I shouldn't have been so short in that conversation, or I wish I'd handled that news with more grace. Um, it's also a chance to be reminded of like, oh, that's right, like I haven't sort of, like, scheduled the time in which the PA could sort of shadow somebody in the cutting room yet. And it was a good prompt to be like, oh, like, I'm not just here for myself. I'm here ideally for the flourishing of everyone on the crew, as well as a time to be grateful, you know, to be employed, to. To be reminded that I have. I'm so lucky to be working in this field, in this endeavor, in this discipline that I love so much. And it was just. It just ended up. Has ended up being kind of like a regular part of my day to say, like, everything that I'm doing and everything that I. Every situation I find myself in is in partnership with God. And I really want to invite the Holy Spirit into that space. [00:06:15] Speaker A: Wow, that's so cool. It's such. It's so encouraging to hear as well. I like the practical stuff is, like, the stuff that's so encouraging to hear. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and just, like, setting the alarm, and I heard someone say this metaphor. They're like, we kind of build our life on to do lists that start up top and work their way down. And they said, but they would encourage for a believer to think of it more as like a spoke. A circle where God is. And out of that circle comes the things you need to do. But it's almost like this continual re. Reconnect. And for some reason, that clicks for me. I'm not quite sure how to practically put that in, but I feel like kind of what you're saying is it's almost these moments to draw you back to that center is. That's. That's really cool. I wanted to ask you what's, like, kind of jumping back a little bit. Like, when was the first time God felt real to you? Do you have, like, a memory that comes to mind of that or a time period? [00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty clear one. So my story is one of. It's very much like the. The younger son and the prodigal. The story of the two prodigals, Right. Like, the one who sort of goes away from the church or goes away from the Father for a long time and then comes back. And that was definitely my story when I. I grew up in the church, but was more of, like, a cultural Christian than someone who really engaged deeply with my faith. And when I left my hometown for college, miles away, I. I, you know, really left the faith as well, because I just wanted to try new things. I didn't feel like I had, like, a personal relationship with God. It was just something that was a part of it, who I was in terms of my identity, in the same way that, like, being a Korean immigrant was a part of who I was, right? And years later, when I met and fell in love with my now wife Jane, she's the one who brought me back to the church. And not in a way that was like, well, if you're interested in me, here's. Here's an ultimatum. It was much more like I realized that everything that I loved about her, her generosity, her resilience, her joy, came from the fact that she was a believer. And. And I realized that if I was in love with her, I must be in love with some aspect of her identity that. That. That stemmed from God. And so I decided to try going back to church. But having been away for, like 20 years and being, you know, politically left, there was a lot of questions that I had and a lot of resistance that I had. I almost kind of felt like I was coming into enemy territory in a way, right where I needed to check my logic and my, you know, and my intellect at the door and just sort of like, just fall into faith in a way. And I was like, well, how does this work? And what about this question? And all these kind of secondary things I was protesting. But there were two moments, and they. And they both happened in a corporate setting. The first was a. A small group that I was a part. I became a part of. Of at the time, single men, because, like, you know, I met my wife when I was dating her, and it was. They. We all sort of gathered around one of our brothers who was going through a breakup at the time, and we all had a chance to pray for him. And. And I was like, that's not something that I was used to doing because I. I thought only pastors were space. Supposed to pray for people. I felt so ill equipped, particularly as someone who was skeptical, but I just found myself speaking out loud, asking God to just. Just allow this brother to be well, you know, to. To be healed, to be, you know, and encouraging him. And. And there was something about that act of praying for somebody that made me feel like a vessel for goodness. And it was a very emotional experience for me, and one that I wasn't used to having been sort of in a more. In a less kind of participatory engagement with church. And I think the second, which was really powerful was during worship. There's a particular song, a contemporary song called Hosanna. And there were certain lines within was like, heal my heart and make it clean. Open up My eyes to the things unseen show me how to love like you love me. And I still remember, like, I was so filled. I can now sort of understand what was happening. I can articulate what was happening. At the time, I couldn't have used these words, but I was so filled with the Holy Spirit that my hands started to shake and I started to weep. And I was given the experience of a goodness and a desire for goodness, a desire to care for others that I hadn't felt in a long time. And I really felt like I was experiencing the kind of love that God had for me. And from that moment it switched something in me where I wanted to use all of my intellectual powers not to disprove that God existed, but to prove that he did for myself. Because I wanted to feel this way. I wanted this to be the way my life was. And I wanted to. And I. And I felt the, the joy of the prospect of caring for the things that he cares for and for having my heart break, break for the things that break his heart. And so it really, it was such a. Such a powerful experience that. And it was, I think it might have been the first time that I felt like, wow, God is real. But not only is he real, he is someone whose love can transform me not just for myself, but to make me into the kind of man that wants to care for others the way that he cares for others. And, and it just gave me such an instantaneous, complete sense of like, oh, this is a much better purpose in living than anything that I could come up with. And that changed everything for me. [00:12:51] Speaker A: That's so cool. I think one thing that really grabs me and what you're saying too is like, both of those contexts are not like, you alone, like, studying in a book, you know what I mean? Like, you didn't like, finally find the locked in way of like, oh, this is the proof it was an experience. And I think too, even just like, you know, I think I grew up in the church and it's very similar stepping away. But I think more and more what I see is people are like, I don't really need to go to church. And I'm not one who's like, as hardcore, where I'm like, you have to be in there or you're outside God's blessing or whatever. But I do feel like it's been so fruitful. And I think there's something about worshiping with others and doing community, like one of the biggest parts for me and my wife that's affected our lives and our Family is the community aspect, the community group we have in our house every Tuesday with a meal. And I feel like the Lord has shown up there maybe more than anywhere as far as seeing him at work, you know, and. Yeah, so that's so encouraging, what you're sharing. This is a little bit of a detour, but this. We mentioned the worship thing. This is a little more. Maybe on the silly side, I don't know, but. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:05] Speaker A: I. Do you ever find that, you know, as a editor or filmmaker, that during worship, like, is that ever. Like, there's been times for me. I'll start with my version where I feel like so often during worship, these. These stories I'm working on or potentially working on, these images keep coming to my head of how to do this or how to show this. And I feel like at its core, a lot of it is, you know, I'm like, oh, I'm. It's distracting me. I need to focus on God. It's distracting me. And I remember talking to a. One of our pastors, and he's like, I'm not sure that that's always a distraction. I'm not sure. I think that's. It could be a worship response. Like, you experience something and you want to give back in that way. And, you know. So anyway, this is kind of like a. I've almost never talked about this, but I was just curious if you had any similar thing, you know, as. As you're worshiping in music. Has that been a space that inspiration ever kind of comes? [00:14:59] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That's so exciting to. To. To talk with you about this, because it's so funny because, like, one of the things that I started to do in earnest at the end of last year, at the beginning of last year was to pray every morning and to have quiet time that begins with a worship song. And then it is, you know, some time of silent prayer. And, you know, initially it was just a listening prayer to. To. To be like, who do you want me to. Who would you like me to see today? What would you like me to say? What would you like me to do? But then it's so funny that you say this because, like, I've. I've had the same judgmental response when I feel like my mind has wandered to a creative problem or a scene from a movie that I'm working on or something like that. And I've always rebuked myself to be like, no, focus on what God wants you to do. Like, what you just said makes me think, like, well, what if God is interested in that problem. You know, what if, what if he wants to know, like, well, how do we trim this scene to keep the essence of what we're trying to say, but to do it in a more muscular light? What if that fascinates him, you know, in the same way? And it's, and I think it's this, even those of us that really believe in a faith and work theology, I think the, we're so conditioned to think like, oh, like, no, no, no, like faith and work isn't about the work itself. Faith and work isn't about sort of excellence or being the best editor that you can be. It's about like, you know, being the presence of the kingdom in the workplace. Well, like, but that's, I don't know, like maybe it doesn't have to be that cut and dry. Maybe you're right. Like maybe there's a way that, that God delights in the creative questions and in the nitty gritty of, of how our subconscious mind works. Right. Or suppose, you know, that's one, one framework to describe it. Right? We talk about it as like sometimes you need to step away from a creative problem to let your subconscious work on it. And sometimes taking a walk and things like that. Yeah, I mean that's the way that, you know, purely secular context would say it. But like, maybe so much of that would be to acknowledge that like, maybe God delights in being creative with us. Maybe he, maybe he's having fun too, you know, and maybe he just wants the chance to say like, hey, that's good, you know, he's such a, he's such a creative God. And so yeah, I, I appreciate that and maybe, yeah, maybe I'll be less resistant when I start to mull over a creative problem in the, in the course of silent time. [00:17:48] Speaker A: So yeah, awesome. Yeah, I love to just even hear how other people experience it kind of similarly on that similar vein. Do you find any like patterns at all to the moments you kind of feel inspired or excited? So I mean that could be, you know, work related and that can be, you know, just life related, faith related, you know. But is there any elements where, like for me what, what I'm really thinking of is like when I have ideas and things to move forward on to me, I've started to notice certain patterns in that. Um, but yeah, just curious for you if, if there's any, any pattern you've spot spotted. [00:18:29] Speaker B: I, I, the, I guess the only consistent pattern is, is how it tends to happen when, particularly for, particularly for nettlesome problems, things that. Where you're not finding a clear answer to how it seems to kind of rise when you're not focused on it. Like for me, the best. Like that first example when we finally took a break and we got a chance to sort of step away. Like, I think that's the only consistent thing that I've found is so often the ideas have come. The really sort of like creative ideas have come when I'm not. When I've done well. It. It. It. Maybe the. Maybe the caveat that I would say is I feel like you need to have ingested enough by trying to do the thing or trying to solve the problem or trying to sort of, you know, analyzing, you know, what the. What the different ways to attack the problem are, right? Whether it's the. The arc of a character or a particular story point that's not making sense, you need to have grappled with it, to kind of ingest it in a way. Like to load the data. To train, I guess, you know, new parlance, right? To train your AI In a way. Yeah, but then, but then you're, You're. You're human and hi. Human intelligence in a way. And, and. But. But then it's when you're not kind of like actively cycling through that and when you're sort of more passive or when you're. When you're less guarded or whatever that the answer tends to emerge for me. And I think that's happened quite often when. Right before I go to sleep or, you know, during. During a walk or if something else kind of triggers, you know, an idea or something like that while I'm sort of living life, that's often when something will come to me. A solution will come to me out of nowhere. It's the same reason why, like, when you're edit. When I'm editing, I really like to kind of not watch the movie too many times in a row because I feel like it's literally that time away that allows me to kind of bring a kind of freshness to the experience where I'm not sort of checking off boxes anymore. I'm experiencing it like an audience again. And in the same way, I just feel like sometimes we just need that freshness. Sometimes we just need to step away. And that's been pretty consistent for me. What. What about for you? What. What are the patterns that you've been noticing? [00:21:03] Speaker A: Um, well, I think for one, I'm kind of even thinking of, like, origin of ideas. For me, like, along with the worship thing, there's Music is I feel like such a big part of where thoughts. There's times I would say pretty much every passion project I've done started with me walking, listening to music. But I feel like it's often worship music. Not always though. But I feel like it's kind of. Yeah. I remember one time I was. Took the kids up to a cabin with my wife and I was being grumpy and she was like, why don't you take a walk? And I remember just being like. And just like defeat, defeat. You know what I mean? You try to like pretend to be nice and you know. So I was going on a walk just feeling like man, this is like a consistent Lord. This is a consistent problem. I feel like I just get angry and I'm grumpy and I remember listening to this music walking up through the woods and I felt like the Lord gave me this idea for. It's actually a short film I just shot. We're in post now but gave me the idea for it. And I remember being like, I love this idea. And then being like, God, I don't want it. Like if I can't be good to my family, like what are we doing? Why don't give me these things, you know, if I can't be good to my family then I. Then I don't want it. And I felt like. And this feels a little like tooting my own horn. But I can only explain my experience. I felt like. So I was like, I don't want it if I can't be good to my family. And I feel like that's why I give it to you. That's why I chose you to do it. And it was steep sense of love and gratitude and a little bit, a little bit of heartbreak as well, you know. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Um, but just feeling. Yeah. So to answer that question, I think just walking music that that mixture has been a big part for me. And then too I think my own relationship with my. My wife has been a huge factor in there. It's just like no hiding from yourself, you know, in marriage and having to work through stuff. Um, but that kind of slightly detouring a little bit. I wanted to, you know, I never wanted to spare. Be disparaging to any other projects out there. But with let's say was if you've seen any faith based projects that felt a little lacking to you or a little empty. Like I'm just curious what you would feel if you had to try to diagnose what stands in the way of those ones from. Yeah. Being. Yeah. I was also say what stands in the way from some of the face based films we see that don't land. Would, would you have any thoughts on that? [00:23:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's tough because I, I, I think, I think the challenge, the challenge of trying to portray like an impossibly loving God and he has zero character arc. What he has, what he has, exactly what he has on offer for us is, is that it's so black and white. Like the, and so much of what I think resonates within or at least what, what, what, what resonates from a pure kind of craft standpoint in telling a story is complexity and ambiguity and things like that. And I think we can fall into the black and white even in our storytelling that things are inherently good and things are inherently bad and, and not grapple with that complexity. And the irony of course, is that I don't think it has to be that way. I just, I think even the Bible isn't that way. Where there are inherent paradoxes and contradictions that don't really get a lot of airtime, you know, because I feel like it's destabilizing to talk about contradictions within the Bible. It's destabilizing to talk about gray areas, right? Like, for example, like one of the things that, like, like I'm a huge fan of the Bible project and there was that series they did on wisdom literature in which they talked about the contrast between the black and white rules of Proverbs, which says, if you are good, you will have a good life. If you are bad, you will have a bad life. You know, and then, then they talk about how something like Ecclesiastes, something like Job, right? It really complicates that picture, right? Because like Job's friends all say with such certainty, like, look, God is a black and white God. He punishes those who are bad and he cares and he. And he blesses those who are good. Look, you have been cursed. Clearly you did something bad. We know God like confession and Job's like, dude, I did nothing. You know, like that is such a perfect portrait of how complex and how hard to grapple with and how gray our real lives can be. And it's right there, it's right there in the Bible, right? Like, I don't think that that's something that most pastors really want to dwell in, right? Because like it's, it's hard, right? It's life as hard as it is. And here you're saying that the faith that, that promises you reprieve from that isn't black and white. It requires more of you. It requires you to grapple with everything from that paradox. But, like, even the problems of biblical translation, you know, like, what is the. What are we not understanding? Because. Because the Bible wasn't written, you know, to us. Right, right. It was written for us, but it wasn't written to us in our cultural context. Like, what are we missing? Like, and I think. I think if you. You don't grapple enough with that in your. In when you're doing something creative that wants to communicate God's goodness, but also his complexity and in. And his paradox and all of those things, like, I think it feels less adult. It feels less real. It feels less of our experience. It feels less like Ecclesiastes. Right. You know, like, it feels like. Like where. Like there is real wisdom there. There's real cynicism there. There's real, like, you know, a lived experience. And it tends to feel too much like proverbs in a way where, like, it might not ring as true for us. Like, oh, that ending is so pat. It's so, you know, expected. It's so black and white. It's so clear. And I think where we. We tend to value those things that hold a mirror up to that complexity and aren't as clear because that's the way our lives are. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah, hopefully. That absolutely makes sense. Yeah, I know. I always like you talking to my wife about going through job, and I'm like, this just is very concerning. Right. You're like, if this happened, this is super concerning. Right. [00:28:49] Speaker B: And it's just. [00:28:50] Speaker A: It's in there, you know, I think that's good, though. I feel like that's. That's true. And I feel like that rule. You even see that in some ways exist, even just in all what makes things meaningful in a story, you know, like, if you have a character who struggles, you know, you're like, oh, I'm. You know, their. Their wound is. You know, they struggle with alcohol, but it. It never really affects the story. It just feels kind of like, oh, that's almost like a costume they wore, you know, but once it's changing the story, it's like now we're feeling, you know, so, yeah, I feel like there's some. There's some parallels there. Another question. I feel like I already. This is a little bit of a loaded question, or I feel like I may already be able to guess your answer, but does art need to be Christian art to glorify God? [00:29:40] Speaker B: I don't know. Would you say that Bach's music is Christian explicitly. I mean, I guess some of his pieces are sacred, but like, I don't know if you'd call it Christian music necessarily. You'd call it some of the greatest classical, greatest music in the classical genre ever written, you know, and, and he was explicitly about glorifying God. Yeah, I think, I think if something is excellent, then it glorifies God. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Like I, I, I, if you, and if you, as someone who is created in the image of God, do something that is excellent and beautifully crafted and complicated and really hard to make because nuance is hard. Like, something that isn't nuanced is easier, but something that is nuanced and complicated and well crafted is really hard. It takes exponentially longer and it's harder to achieve true originality. And nuance is hard. And I think that glorifies God because he's a creative God and he made us to do this. I really do believe that. I believe that like, in the same way that like watching an athlete being credible at their sport, like, you know, as a filmmaker, when you watch something that's really, really good, like, regardless of the subject matter, you're just like, wow, like, that glorifies his creation in a way. And, you know, I think as Christians we should celebrate that instead of being such, so fixated on the destabilizing effects of some content message. Right. And again, I think it's because we're not there. Our, our vision of Christianity is like, it's so based upon the fear of destabilization versus the embrace of, of the controversial or the destabilizing. And it's so ironic to me because, like, I think the more you know, of Christ, like this kind of central figure in the narrative that we all. That is supposedly the most important narrative for us. And he was incredibly destabilizing. Like, he was incredibly controversial. He was incredibly like, you know, against the grain as far as, like the moral codes of the time. And so like, I just, I, I, you know, not to get too far down it, but, but yeah, I, I think it doesn't have to. Good art doesn't have to be Christian in order to glorify God, in my opinion. Yeah, just a content or inform. [00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there's what you were saying made me think of, I've heard this quote, something along the lines of perhaps we should work harder to create with God instead of creating about God. And, and as I thought about that more, I'm like, I do think what you're talking about to, to you Know that sometimes when I've heard go after excellence, I've always been like, oh, it's a slippery slope to self or whatever. But I really do think it is. It is like, to worship God in your work. I mean, it's biblical to do with excellence and just really just do it the best you can. And obviously not with, like, it's understood and we're not talking about, like, neglecting our family and whatnot, but I do think there is something to be doing it the best you can and how that's. That's an act of worship. And I think maybe in some of the things we see that fall short or feel empty, it's. It's in hopes to talk about him and not to do something with him. You know, maybe that's a little abstract, but, you know, kind of. [00:33:31] Speaker B: No, I think that's absolutely right. And I think. But I also think that we need to embrace the fact that it's not that we shouldn't hold people who strive for hard things to a higher moral standard, but that we should not be surprised when they are as broken as we are. Right. Does that make sense? I just feel like Martin Luther King Jr. Wrote more beautifully about the intersection of politics and, and. And Christianity than, you know, than almost. I don't know, it's just in terms of, like, modernity, right? Like, the. The way that he led and the example that. And the writings he left behind and the way he lived his life and the political movements that he started were so important in giving people a taste of what the kingdom looks like. And yet he was such a. He had a lot of brokenness in his life. Right. And does that invalidate what he has to say? You know, and like, even. And when. When theologians and leaders, when they have a fall from grace, like, like all of a sudden it can be very invalidating to the work they've done. And. And I just don't know if, like, that's a. I don't know if that's a mature expectation, if that's a mature response. It's actually realistic response. And I feel like in the same way that, like, for filmmakers it's. It's the same thing. It's like even in showing ourselves grace and saying, like, how we especially as people who really value our families, like, my, My. My relationship to my wife is so central to my identity, and I love her and, and I. And I want to sort of live out, you know, in every way to be a good husband. But I also know that, like, what it takes to Be really good in my field, you know, to bring him glory to do difficult projects and things like that. So there will be times where, where away from each other or not being able to kind of have the kind of date nights that I would like to have on a regular basis that, that we live in that tension, you know, and I feel like we have to be comfortable with that. Of not being perfect. [00:36:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. You're talking about Martin Luther King Jr. But also just thinking of like David, you know, getting the title of a man after God's own heart is like, he's like the worst, but also the best. [00:36:17] Speaker B: You know, that's what's so crazy, right? Like he's, he's like, he embarrasses himself. Like he does things like, you know, like, and he sins in like the most like, crazy way, you know, and, and still he has. But it's not like it invalidates the things that he's done. You know, Solomon is, you know, his own son like Solomon. The same way, like there's so many figures where you have these like, flawed leaders and so much of God's glory shines through in the work that they've done and who they are and even in their relationship with him in spite of that or maybe even because of that. Right. Like his, his power is made perfect. Right. So I, I just, I don't know, I, I, I, I feel like in order to, there are times in which we have to be imperfect in order to strive to bring God glory. I think that's a realistic thing. [00:37:21] Speaker A: That's good hearing you talk. Maybe want to ask you. I think one of the things I struggled with early on was I'm not sure if this is from my faith or from all my siblings being doctors and scientists, but I felt like, and I don't think it's actually from that as much. I think there's, there's this reoccurring voice that's saying it's shallow. Like filmmaking is shallow. And it's something I never talked about out loud because it's like, you know, it's also the work I'm doing. But especially it felt like, oh, it's self seeking, it's, I want to feel special. And I feel like as I began to share that in community group, finally I felt like as soon as I said it, I could see that it wasn't true. But I'm curious if you've ever felt that is a voice that you've, you fought at all or, you know, I think it's so easy to be like, oh, well, I'm always preaching. I'm like, oh, go home. Love your family. That's like, one of the most meaningful things you can do with your life. And which I believe that. But also, I've had to reconcile. I'm like, I was kind of ready. I like, I do. I've been really blessed with commercial work. Do like, Nike, Fila, and pays well, you know, and. And a community group. And, like, I'm like, we're like, it's fruitful. And I'm like, I don't. I don't. I kind of gave it up as it was an idol in my life. And I felt like he brought it back to me years later, you know, And I'm like, I really don't need this if you don't want. Unless you want me to do it. Like, it sounds like fun, but, like, we don't have to do this, you know? And I felt like there's this continual push, and I'm like, I can't call something unclean that God calls clean, you know? [00:39:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:02] Speaker A: And so, yeah, I've had to. Have you ever had to reconcile that at all? Or has it been just from day one, you felt like this is. You can see, you know, the kingdom value in it and just see the value in it in general. [00:39:16] Speaker B: Great question, Nathan. I think one of the really interesting experiences I had early in my career, like, I think it was one of my first union jobs was on the Sony lot, and I was delivering a cut to the projection rooms, and Sony used to be Columbia Pictures. And I was down in the screening room, and there were all these posters from, like, the 1920s, and they were like, movies that, like, I. And I consider myself a decent history student of film history. And I couldn't recognize, like, a single one of those posters. And I was just like, man, like, it's all. It's less than a century later and already. And I was thinking to myself, I was. As I'm sitting there waiting to drop off the cut, I was like, for the producers and write, actors, writers, directors, editors of those films, like, they must have felt that that was a monumental achievement, you know, a Columbia Pictures release that, you know, people around the world are going to see. And, like, here this kid, like, 60, 70 years later has no idea about it, right? Like, it's gone and it's like vapor. It's like smoke, like what Ecclesiastes says, right? Like, and so. And so in some ways, it was. It was harrowing, but in some ways it was a really good thing for me to pin in my head and my heart to be like, whatever consequence that I bring to the thing that I'm making, it's really, in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that important. So then what's the point of my doing it? And, you know, I. I think you could sort of make the argument that, like, maybe so that it takes off the table this sense of, like, something that's lasting or significant in terms of time, like maybe a bridge or a building an architect could bring, maybe they could make a justification for it, you know, because it lasts for generations, but then for most of those people, their name will be forgotten anyway. Right. And so. And then what timescale are we talking about? And so then I think I started to focus more on the relational aspect. Does it bring joy to people? Does it bring a narrative that they start to. That they. That can change how they view themselves or view their life, you know, even if it's brief. Right. Like, how are you sort of affecting people in that relational way? And then also as a worker within this context, how am I living my life for the people who work in film? You know, the people who work for me and the people whom I work for. Right. Like, am I having an impact in that way? And so I, I think I started to see the work less as, like, oh, I'm going to make my mark on history, and much more of, like, how does my work, you know, impact people in the now? And how does my being a worker, where I'm placed, how does that impact the people that I work with as being the justification? And in the first place, I really focused on how much films meant to me as an immigrant child in understanding and navigating the complexities of the world and how movies opened up worlds that I, you know, might never have the. The opportunity to travel to, whether it's in time or privilege or geography, and how that enriches my understanding of life. Right. And that's a very personal thing for me. And I just feel like I'm participating in that conversation. And so it is significant in that way because it was really significant to me. And so, like, I'm. I'm like the primary evidence of. Of what impact it can have because I, It. Because I, I delighted so much in it. I wanted to do it. And in the other relational aspect, which is like, where am I placed as a worker? I really feel very strongly that, like, my industry, my cutting room, my office, is my place of ministry. And it might not be in terms of proselytization. Like, I'm not leading Bible studies here, but I am making myself, my identity as a Christian very known, you know, And. And at the same time, I'm also taking the time to have conversations, to nurture, to help people flourish, to see that they are of worth, that they are made in the image of God. Like, all those things, I'm trying to bring the presence of the kingdom. And so in that way, I just feel a different sense of purpose, a different sense of importance to what I do and where I am placed. So I hope that answers your question. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Oh, man, that was. That was a beautiful answer. That was so good. Okay. [00:44:25] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. Absolutely great. Do you have any spiritual practices or routines? I know you mentioned the timer thing that you've done some, Any. But just in general, any spiritual practices or routines that you kind of try to do regularly? [00:44:41] Speaker B: I think the thing that really comes to mind is I, is. Is my morning prayer time. I think until last year, I didn't see the practical. I didn't see the sort of. I. I understood from a duty standpoint the idea of prayer. [00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:04] Speaker B: But it felt like. But it felt like situational. Like if I. If I encountered somebody and they needed prayer, or if I got an email and from someone who's sick and they need a prayer, like, it just felt like, oh, it's situational. Like, I didn't sort of understand that. Of how ultimately relational it is in terms of my relationship to God. And, and the thing that I said at the end, because it. Cause it. Because it started last year because our church does an annual fast. And at the end of that fast, we all sort of get together, we break bread, and then we talk about what the experience of the fast was. And, And I. And one of the things I shared was that that was the first fast that I. I hadn't. I. I hadn't been working at the time. And so I got to go to the times of worship and prayer almost every night that. That week. And my relationship to prayer started to change where I kept thinking, okay, well, I'm not good enough at prayer where I'm hearing from God in the way that my. My peers say they're hearing from God, because I don't. Like, I'm like, is. Is God going to sound like Morgan Freeman? Like. Or is God going to be like, you know, like, what's his voice going to be? Is it going to be an image or whatever? Like, yeah, like. And I was. I was never sure. And so I Definitely thought of it as like, oh, it has to be this conversation. It has to be this transaction in a way. And one of the things I really appreciated in that week and that I wanted to continue was know that it was. It wasn't so much that I needed to hear or have a conversation, that it was what I started to value was this intentional investment in the relationship and to acknowledge that this relationship was a real relationship and a primary relationship in my life. In the same way that, like, I need to spend time with my wife, I need to spend time with God, who I give lip service to is the most important relationship in my life. And so. And so I. I tried to do this practice like every morning, waking up at least 15 minutes earlier than I normally would wake up and have this quiet time. And I don't know, it's really made a huge difference. Not because of any particular thing he said to me or an image that I received or anything that feels like a conversation, but more as a daily acknowledgment that, like, this relationship is important to me and that it's shaping me. And I do feel like. Like I can't. I can't tell you exactly sort of like how. But I do feel like I think about him more now. I do feel more centered in my identity as. As his son and as his worker and as his minister. And it hasn't been any particular word I've received or any particular moment I've had. It's just, I think, just this cumulative acknowledgment that he's real in my life every day. And I think that that's made a big difference for me and it's really encouraged me to continue to do so is to. Is to have that, that. That time of prayer with him and hopefully duration wise for that to increase as. Especially as, you know, in. In the times in which I'm not fully working, I'm not actively working on a project. So. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Do you feel like whether this kind of off, you know, off the cuff here, but do you feel like the. You've. I've heard someone say the Lord speaks to us and we learn his voice more over time, but he doesn't speak English. You know, he speaks almost like he speaks knowledge in a way. Like this is knowing in your spirit. I was curious if you felt like, especially as you've been praying, whether it's from that or at any point or lately, that the Lord has sort of called you to anything or pointed you in certain ways or kind of like red light, green light, anything, you know? Yeah. Do you feel like. Yeah, I'm just curious to your. Your experience with that. It's fine. I know it's kind of off the cuff, so I'm gonna come up with something. But. [00:49:22] Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, in explicit ways. Like, there have been times where I've had a question and I've gone through some sort of fasting, whether it's food or whether it's media or. Or recently alcohol, you know, that type of thing, like, and fasted something that was a regular part of, you know, my world, you know, and, and. And sought answers and, and that culminated in a visit, for example, to Pasadena House of Prayer, you know, to their prophetic prayer ministry, for example. And just I think you what. Where the way that, that works is you go there, you sign up for a time, and then you meet two people who've never met you and who sort of pray prophetically over you. And then you. And then after that's done, you meet two more people and they do the same. And, and the idea is that, you know, that they're seeking the Holy Spirit to, To sort of engage you with whatever question or whatever, where, wherever you are. And those have been really, really fruitful times for me. Not everything they've said has really landed, but, like, more often than not, there is a way in which it feels like, because they do that all the time, that there is a way that they can articulate maybe what God is trying to say to me every day in a way that it feels meaningful. So, yeah, that's definitely something that comes to mind explicitly. But I think one of the things that I. I feel more often and that is really impactful is just this sense of when I have showed up in those times of prayer, you know, whether it's by myself or our church has a prayer room and things like that, is this feeling of being in the right place and being guided by that, you know, of saying that, yes, stay close to me. And in the circumstances of the day, you know, you'll be more attuned to how I speak to you. And I. I just feel like it's not. It's that sort of daily check in to say, like, okay, like, we're on the same frequency now. Right? And then. [00:51:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:38] Speaker B: And then through the day I might have a conversation or. Or something might come up or something like that. That. That sort of gives me an opportunity to react in a way or move in a way that I think he wants me to. It's one of the things that I say a lot to younger people who are. Who tell me that they're waiting on the Lord for something before starting something. And, you know, the metaphor that I like to use with them is, you know, when you're dancing with someone, it's so much easier to lead them if you're moving, if you're still. And you want them to do a movement, there's a lot of, like, energy that. That you're. That the person you're dancing with has to do. Whereas a great dancer, if they're connected, like just a light press on the small of the back or a slight, you know, movement on the lead hand or something like that, can sort of initiate a big move. And. And so that's why I. I try to encourage them to say, like, begin. Even if you don't know if it's the right thing, or even if you don't know that. That this is the way the Lord is leading you. It's like. Like, let's say you're exploring a new career. Like, if you start to move without knowing necessarily if he approves of it, he'll put people in your path as you go to that school or as you go to that job or as you do these informational interviews or whatever like that. And that's how he'll speak to you, because he's now. Now you're dancing with him in a way. And now that there's momentum that. That. That you didn't have when you were just waiting. And I'm not just. Not to say that you. There aren't times in which we should be patient and listen, but, like, more often than not, so much for me has happened while I was moving, while I was pursuing something. And he has been able to push me one way or the other, totally circumstantially and with conversations and things like that. [00:53:36] Speaker A: So that's so good. Yeah, I felt like there's times that I do feel like the Lord has led me to do something specific. And then there are times I'm waiting for him to tell me something specific. And I'm waiting and I'm waiting. And I felt like there's a time when he was like, you want to be a servant, which is good, but you're also a son. And I want. I delight. And seeing you make decisions. I delight in seeing you grow. I delight in seeing you so good, you know, And I felt like once again, a, like, wrecks me with. With love, you know, in that sense of, like, oh, all right. [00:54:11] Speaker B: It's so Good. Yeah. I think that, I think that should be, that should be. The tension we all live in is we should all seek to obey, but we should always. We should seek to be wise. [00:54:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:26] Speaker B: Right. Like, I mean, isn't that why he gave us the Bible? Right? Like he's like, it's his word. Exactly. Like he's like, it's there. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker B: The complexity is there. Yeah, but we're not. And, and it's so rich in that way. But like if we don't really read it, if we don't grapple with it, then like how are we to be wise in the way that he desires, desires us to be wise? Like it's, you're so much less youthful as a servant if you don't have the wisdom that comes from making mistakes and sometimes doing the wrong thing and having to be corrected and having to be moved this way or that way like, or, you know, having engaged with these questions rather than just blindly following. And so yeah, I really, that's one of the hardest things I think in our, our discipleship is to understand what is the process of becoming wiser so that we don't have to. So that we can anticipate what he wants from us versus waiting to hear what he wants from us. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Totally. Speaking of being wiser, one of the questions I have here is like any spiritual advice you would give to your 25 year old self, you can, you can adjust that timeline as needed. [00:55:47] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah. Gosh, I don't know. Like, there's so much, so much. I, I feel like I'm so much more grateful now because I screwed things up so badly in my. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Same, same. [00:56:09] Speaker B: You see what I mean? Like, I just, I feel like there's so much. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Mike hit rock bottom maybe a little bit sooner. Other than that, it's, you know, I. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Think it's, I think it's like, I think the thing that I would have asked is that as you screw things up, stop being so selfish, you know, Like, I guess I was so afraid I just. Okay. Maybe the way that I would articulate it is don't look at the world with a sense of scarcity because I think when I was young and, and, and more ambitious in a very selfish way, I always saw things in a zero sum way. Right. Like if, if I don't get this, someone else is going to get this and if I don't have this, then not. There'll be nothing else that's meaningful for me know. [00:57:06] Speaker A: And put you kind of in a survival approach to. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Yeah, like it's yeah, it's to say there's, there can only be a number one spot. You know, there can only be one or three people who get this fellowship, but there can only be X number of people that can get this union job or whatever it is. Right. Like, and I have to strive because that's all there is. Right. And I think I would have said there's so much abundance that you're not seeing when you have that cloistered view. Right. There's so much abundance for you. And I think that that's what allows us to work from a place of rest. That's what allows us to work from an advantage in a way, compared to people who don't believe. It's like God is an abundant God and that if you work from a place of scarcity, you're going to be fearful and anxious all the time. And I was very much. But I, I thought, oh, well, that's what it takes to, to succeed. Right. And I think I would have invited myself to, to see things as a, as challenging as it is to think about life as an abundant life, potentially abundant life. If I'm open to redefining what I, what success means for me, what and, and, and changing, taking off the blinders and seeing things with more open scope. [00:58:37] Speaker A: And that's such wisdom. So good. I similar lane. I felt like there are times I'm like, okay, what would I do if I had unlimited budget and anybody I asked would take my call or, you know, like, yeah, if I, if that was an issue. And I feel like so often what I end up coming up with as the best answer is something I can actually, like, take action on doing. And I don't need an unlimited budget, you know, but I feel like there's something about believing that they're out in abundance and not having a scarcity mindset that is. Yeah, it's fruitful. It's good. Into our last last two questions here, any resources, books, habits you'd recommend to a believer who feels called to create in some ways or been something that's been good for you. [00:59:24] Speaker B: I, I think one of the biggest things for me has been the Bible project. I think the reason I say that is that I thought that looking at the Bible, that I often found it so impenetrable because of the language. I found that I thought that I was more sophisticated than the Bible and therefore I don't need the Bible. Like, the Bible is what I, I really thought was like a necessary evil to have documented enough to get the Christian faith going and then it's. But it's this kind, but it's not interesting or sophisticated. And, and, and that was purely. I realized that was purely based on my own ignorance and my own lack of engagement. And one of the things that the Bible Project and its videos have done is there is a sense of wonder and delight at the complexity and of the skill of, of writing and construction and storytelling that exists in the Bible in the micro and in the macro. And it, it's not reduced to just a few verses that most people are exposed to. Right. Like, you know, one of the things I did while reading through the Bible in One year, which is another resource that I'd recommend, there's a Bible in One Year program that Nikki Gumbel does, you know, the founder of Alpha on the Bible app that I really love because it's both written and audio, like it's read to you. [01:01:14] Speaker A: That's nice. [01:01:14] Speaker B: For those of us who love listening, it's great to hear the Bible every day. [01:01:19] Speaker A: How long? Like one daily listen. Was it like a chapter or how long would you say, roughly? [01:01:24] Speaker B: Basically a section from the Old Testament, a section from the New Testament, and a section from either Proverbs or Psalms. And in total, like, the experience is about 20 minutes. So, yeah, great resource, amount of time. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah, everyone has at least 20 minutes of traffic. [01:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But, yeah, I think, I think that's it. I think that's one of the many ways that I started to feel how beautiful, complex, and how artistically satisfying God's Word is. And that opened the door to the possibility of my being much more humble as a Creator and to seek that complexity not just within His Word, but within theology, within my engagement with my faith. I. That it was one of the ways that, like, I realized that, that, that I. That it was a very rich. [01:02:29] Speaker A: For. [01:02:29] Speaker B: Me to engage with and to stay humble before God, to say that I didn't have to turn my brain off in order to be a believer. In fact, the more I engaged, the more richly rewarding it was for someone who cares deeply about storytelling, cares deeply about craft, who cares deeply about complexity and the highest forms of art making, to engage with it in that way and to. Again, that word humility is really important. It humbled me in a way that said, like, you know, you. You think that you're a creative, creative being, but like, God is infinitely more creative and that. That you are privileged to be in his presence and to invite him into your own creative practice. [01:03:20] Speaker A: That's awesome, dude. What? Yeah, that's a great Answer. I'll. I'm actually, I'm going to check it out. [01:03:25] Speaker B: Okay, great, great. [01:03:26] Speaker A: All right. And this is a final question. Kind of just on the film side that I always like to ask. Somebody's out there, some director out there is listening, but what is there a type of film you would still love to be a part of? And maybe the easiest way is to, you know, whether it's a genre or there's like a pre existing film that you're like, oh, that would be. Something like, that would be. Would be a dream. Is there any, any project that you would love to do? [01:03:54] Speaker B: That's a good question. It's hard because I think the thing that was always top of mind for me before Minority was and it was a Korean American immigrant story. And until that came my way so good, I didn't think that it was possible to work on something that would be so widely seen. And so from a, from a bucket list standpoint, that checked off so much for me. But I think the thing, the rule of thumb for me is like, you know, does it. Do I find a way to engage with it, you know, with whatever I'm dealing with now? And I think that's the thing. It's like that might. That changes for any creator depending upon where they are in their life. You know, I think that's what's so exciting about it is that. And you know, I think for me it always begins with a great script. And so if you have a great script that feels complex and interesting and believable and grounded, then, you know, I'm always open. Whether I end up working directly on it or as I often do, you know, in a supervisory capacity, in an advisory capacity. That will always kind of resonate with me. And yeah. And I'm also always interested in the story of the creator as well. Like, that's the advice that I often give to people who are either beginning to enter the industry or to, or are, you know, are making their first significant steps within it is don't be afraid to be good at telling your story. [01:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:44] Speaker B: Because everybody you encounter loves this medium because they're storytellers. And you and the reasons why you're doing what you're doing is as compelling a bonafide as whatever credits that you have. And if you can and tell your story in a compelling way, it gives people an opportunity to invest in that story. To say, like, oh, I really want to help this person because I've found their story to be compelling or moving or inspiring. So that's. That's something that I look at so good material and good stories. [01:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Great answer. That's awesome. Do you mind if I just if I close this out in prayer real quick? [01:06:31] Speaker B: Oh I'd love that. Thank you Nathan. Thank you. [01:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah Lord I thank you for this time and what a gift it is for everybody listening and for me and I just pray a blessing over Harry and his family Lord I pray that you would empower him to continue to serve you and that his editing room continue to be a place of ministry Lord and bless him and his family bless his relationships Lord I pray just in that prayer time with you Lord just I thank you for that and that you would just continue to bless him and lead him and may he hear your voice and delight in you father Lord and we thank you for that and just pray even for the everything he puts his hand to Lord that it could be bring glory to you and be beautiful Lord Jesus name Amen. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Amen thank you so much Nathan. Yeah I really had a great time. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Absolutely same I really appreciate.