Mad Charcoal | Fine Art

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Mad Charcoal, AKA Josh Hernandez. So Josh is known for these charcoal drawings and large paintings that like, kind of push these limits of what you can do with like just black and canvas. And he uses multiple, from paint to charcoal to kind of like a mixture of mediums. But, you know, using words to describe visual art is sort of a losing game. So you may want to check out the intro of this on YouTube or turn on video mode of Spotify. But anyway, his unconventional path began not in art schools, but more as like a restless kid in church sketching and come to find that again a lot of us during church. But it sort of evolved into something really distinctive and almost like this like half portrait, half abstract, kind of raw emotion, feelings. It was in like 2020, during COVID his wife began just sharing some of his drawings online. And like, the response was immediate. So, like, what started as this like, casual experiment sort of grew into this like global audience of over eight followers who, you know, love his work. But I come to find that he credits this unlikely career to God's blessing and faithfulness, shaping his identity as a full time artist. His large paintings and charcoal drawings now hang in private collections around the world. They've been exhibited in contemporary spaces like Kraus Gallery in New York and Luca Gallery in Atlanta. His work stands apart for many reasons, but I think for me it's like there's just this kind of like haunting and beautiful aspect. One thing I often talk about in film is like, if you, if you want to show light, then you need to show darkness. Like the light shines brightest in the midst of darkness. I feel like that couldn't be more spot on for the work that he makes. The first time I came across his work, I was like building an inspiration board for my film Flesh and Blood. And I came across this painting and it just like jumped out at me. So it kind of like jumped forward a year, made the film, had this on the inspiration board, and I was like, oh, it would be a dream to license this. And I was like, maybe it's like a small artist somewhere who, you know, would totally be down. And so I track down the artist, discover that it's Mad Charcoal, who is, you know, huge and has this huge following, you know, art collections around the world. And I'm thinking my odds have probably got much worse now. But because of that, I just start to follow his work in general. And I'm just seeing pieces and I just can't like, help but to think that I feel like Maybe somehow this artist is a believer. I have, like, no way to know that. But as like kind of some weeks go by too, I'm looking through more. I'm like, oh, I see these, like, paintings of Jesus, you know, and in the art world, like, that could go either way. You could be paint of Jesus or call Jesus your Savior is another thing. Then it's just paint him, you know, so it could go either way. But I'm like, I gotta at least reach out and see if I can connect at the studio and see if I could license this. And anyway, so I finally get to connect to the studio and they graciously allow me to license it. So now that's the COVID of the short film of the poster. But as we're on that thread, it kind of opens up this conversation about art and faith and podcast. And I don't want to spoil everything, but I love this conversation and it feels like such a gift to me and that the Lord set it up and to sort of stumble upon this, like, gifted artist, then hear how he has his family and he's in the Word daily and he seeks the Lord, you know, leading community groups, but at the same time, like, doing art shows around the world. And then, you know, people come to the show and then they see the paintings and then like, they want to pray to receive Christ after, which is just so cool. I love it. There's so much I like about the conversation, so I don't want to go on and on. So let's just dive in and talk art and faith with Josh Hernandez. How did God become real to you? [00:03:34] Speaker B: For sure, I always struggle to explain things. In fact, like, words are not my strong suit. That's why I draw and paint. But I'll do my best to explain that. And I'm also kind of, in hindsight, discerning better and better what really has happened in my spiritual life. Because, you know, as it's going on, it's not so clear all the time to us what is actually happening, what, how God's working, especially as we learn more about how God works, you know, So I was raised in a Christian home, super grateful for that, very blessed in that way. And obviously there's faults, there's brokenness in every single home. And it was pretty cool because both of my parents did not grow up Christian per se, and they were both from Mexico. So I'm a first generation American and first generation Christian after them. So. So, like, I have a lot of, A lot of love and a lot of honor for them. That I hold to because of that and really pushing our family in that direction. It was so pivotal for my life. Now, obviously, there's no. Like, they're not perfect, and so there's a lot to learn from every family member. But totally the. The other reality was that I kind of had assumed growing up in the church that I just kind of had it, had salvation, had my faith already just because I was a part of it, and I didn't know what it was to be not a part of it. And so I had to go through some difficult circumstances, especially as a late teenager, to really figure out that, okay, this is my faith, cannot be done by someone else based on my community or based on who I associate with. Right. It's. It's in my heart. It's my relationship with the Lord that it's based off of. And so that was difficult for me to. To work through. I did a lot of searching at the time, and glory to God that he. He, like, he kept me. You know, he. He kept me and brought me back around. And even though I tasted some of those things that were not healthy for my spiritual life, it really put into context what he. What he does for us, how he calls us to live. And so through all that, being in the Christian faith, through family, recognizing that it's not someone else's life to live, but our own life to live and our own life to die to self, yeah, really kind of spiraled me out of control. And then he brought me back and was like, okay, yeah, this is. This is real. And now I. That really helps me because I have two kids, another one on the way, and. And it kind of puts me in the right mindset to be like, okay, I'm going to lead them as best I can and parenting them with my wife, lead them to Christ and really center our lives around Christ. But ultimately, they are their own person. They will have their own individual relationship with God that I cannot do for them. Totally hopefully influence them in a positive way somehow. So. So that's kind of how it happened for us. My wife Jordan and I got married in 2019. And so at the time, we were professing Christians, although we were not living. We were in pretty deep sin, and we both were in a very similar place. And so I guess equally yoked in not the greatest way. That's kind of how I explain it. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So what happened was Covid hit. And I think I could probably explain how this ties into artwork, too. Covid hit right after we got married, and we were in this tiny studio apartment, no rooms, and anticipating that we were going to be working a lot outside of there and not stuck in there. And so once we did get stuck in there, immediately, like a couple months after being married for the first. First time ever, we found ourself in a very difficult position, a very dark time in our marriage, and just kind of the frustration of being locked in there. And for those continuous months, we worked through a lot and it was almost like we grew in. In our experience of marriage by years, almost in a matter of months. Just because amount of time we were. [00:07:28] Speaker A: It's like a make or break, you know, it's like. Yeah, it's a. It's a pressure cooker. [00:07:32] Speaker B: It really is a pressure cooker. That's exactly right. And it could have gone south big time. But God was so faithful in that, even though he didn't need to be, but he was very faithful in that, regardless of a lot of my decisions, her decisions, leading us to bad places. But through that, he used that for our sanctification. We became part of a amazing church that we're still a part of now that we by no means got ourselves and found ourselves that God really put that in. In our life for our own good and for his glory. And so we became part of that church and immediately started to see so much in our lives. My wife was actually radically changed first before me, and I found myself lacking in a lot of ways. And I was like, man, I gotta start leading spiritually, something I didn't know how to do. And. And really tried to lean into Christ and he was faithful in that. And so he's. He's brought us so far, got rid of so much sin in our life. And. And it's. We're super grateful for that today with. With pretty big ministry that we could be a part of. And so, yeah, all that, that's kind of my faith journey. Then here we are now five years later, you know, and. And our business has grown. It was also. Our business was also a like Covid. Child business. Yeah. But. Yeah, that's kind of a long story of my own face. [00:08:57] Speaker A: And that's good, man. I feel like me and my wife, I have two kids as well, we have very similar story. We like, were together when I was like 18 at first, and we were like a mess, just like toxic for each other. So eventually it was like, I remember like praying because I believed in God, that I remember praying, but being like, I know that we can't be together, but if it could ever be her Someday, Lord. And then like pretty much 10 years later, we reconnect, we move out of Oklahoma, we're both in Los Angeles. And just like God had done enough work in our lives where I'm like, oh, this actually be a good thing, you know? [00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:31] Speaker A: So we have two kids now, but man, I feel like, hey, if you are someone who actually communicates with your spouse the first year or two of marriage, I feel like really brings up a lot. It's like a make or break thing. But then put that in a Covid pressure cooker, you know, where it's like, there's no escaping this. You can't like leave to like, you know, I'm sure, like, I feel like the Lord really uses marriage in that way, at least for us. He has to. Like, it brings up some things you don't necessarily love to see about yourself, but it also. So there can be like healing and growth and stuff. So I relate with. That's cool. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. So how old are you and when did you get married? [00:10:08] Speaker A: We've been married almost seven years and I am 35. 36. Let's go. 36. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. Gotcha. [00:10:20] Speaker A: How about you? How old are you guys? [00:10:22] Speaker B: I'm. I'm 30, my wife's 26, so. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome, man. [00:10:27] Speaker B: So we've been married like almost six years. [00:10:28] Speaker A: Cool. I feel like God so often uses marriages and kids, you know, like the more important things in our lives to like, make us really look for truth. [00:10:36] Speaker B: What really affected me was the dependency of others. So, like my wife depends on my spiritual love. My kids depend on my spiritual now. My men's group, my small group, my disciples. Like all of that is so dependent on whether I'm being faithful or not. And obviously not in my own strength. But yeah, so now like the price paid is higher than just my own ruins, you know? [00:11:01] Speaker A: Totally, totally. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. At least it's a major sandification, but yeah, that's good. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Just jumping into kind of the artwork stuff. Like in all the work you do, is there an aspect of it that feels the most life giving? [00:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I can draw back to, no pun intended. I could draw back my. My interest in my work and creating and drawing and painting all the way since I could remember I was little, little kid at church and my mom would like, if I wasn't paying attention to the sermon or something, we'd go to like super long services. One in the morning, one at night at my like Hispanic, Spanish speaking church. And she would just give me like pencil and paper to draw with in the. In the. In the downtime. And I was really young, but so I've always enjoyed that, and that has never gone away. I didn't think I could make a career out of it. I didn't even try to think about that. It wasn't an interest of me. Like, it was just an interest for me to do it. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:54] Speaker B: And so I grew up drawing a ton, painting a ton, and got better at it. And I don't think, like, the idea of talent and the idea of, like, artistic genius to me is very. Is very confusing because I know that a lot of what people consider, like, my talent of creating was because I loved it so much and that God gave me that passion for it so much that I did it way too much, that I. That there should be no reason. I didn't get good at it because of just the amount of time, you know, invested into it. And so, like, I don't know anyone that has drawn as much as I do just in sheer time. And obviously now it's my job. But that's why to me, it's not. It's not just like a. Oh, it's a natural, out of, out of the blue skill set. It's more so like a desire that turned into skillset based on time. [00:12:45] Speaker A: And so that's a really cool, cool distinction. I like that. [00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel that that passion has always been there. And even in times of where I took a break and times where I didn't create as much because I was pursuing graphic design, actually, when I became an artist in a weird way, I was going to school for graphic design too. Was kind of like an art director at a couple different places. And so that desire was kind of pushed into that workflow, but it's never have left. And to me, that's still the most fulfilling thing. I still get up almost every single day. And desire to create love. I thought I would start heating it after doing way, like, way more, but it actually kind of grew. The passion kind of grew, and the flame was hotter. Yeah. [00:13:38] Speaker A: Very cool. So you would say, like, from its core, that drawing element, naturally you were just drawn to it and you enjoy it. And it's life giving. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yes. The actual act of drawing itself and painting or whatever that looks like. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Sounds like, you know, people are like, oh, you're 10,000 hours in. I'm like, sounds like you got a lot more than 10,000 hours in of drawing, you know, Way more. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Way more. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah. It's kind of interesting too. I feel like you Know, if you see a lot of these talented musicians, a lot of them were like, oh, I played in the church originally, whether they're still in that world or not. And then it's like, there's a lot of, like, storytellers. Like, oh, I spoke at the church, you know, or I was a pastor and then. But I hadn't quite heard of the, like, drawing at church. But I'm like, I totally. That was my childhood, too. I feel like a lot of people were drawing during, you know, the service. Some people, it's like, actually helps them to even, like, listen is to draw, you know? [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My art director, actually, he's sitting in the other side of this wall here. He. Whenever we have a meeting, he'll be doodling. He probably can't hear me right now. He'll be doodling and drawing. And, like, people that don't know him specifically might be like, hey, you should pay attention to this meeting. But I know that he. He, like, really locks in and, like, really starts to generate ideas and all that when he's doodling, because he's a very talented artist himself. But, yeah, so that's. That's kind of. Oh, I see it too. [00:14:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker B: If I'm doodle at church, my wife will hit me, so I don't do it anymore. [00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I started just taking notes. Not so much. I mean, I like to have the notes, but also just like, it actually helps me focus a little bit more. Otherwise, my mind can race a little bit. Sometimes I even find, like, during worship time, I'm like. I keep getting ideas for, like, scenes and films and stories I'm working on. And for the longest time, I felt like I was like, oh, no, Lord. I'm just trying to worship. But I sort of felt like more like God's like, don't be so certain that that's bad. Like, the desire to create as well. It can be a worship response at times. I'm like, okay, I'm a little more open to it now, but is there a object or. I mean, I guess even a painting or drawing? Is there, like, one? If someone was like, oh, I would love to know one that you're, like, especially proud of or sticks out to you. Is there one or two that come to mind? [00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah. As cheesy as it sounds, I really like drawing Jesus. And a lot of, like. I think there's a lot of ways to go about tying your art to faith, and it doesn't have to be so literal. But then, like, I also found this Day and age, a lack of literal artwork representing like biblical themes. Right. That's kind of like interesting and not just historical. Right? [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:15] Speaker B: And. And so I'm kind of trying to mess around with that and create different, like crucifixion scenes, Jesus portraits, different biblical scenes. And so my focus take on that that I did recently, I think it was the week of Easter this year was a series called Road to Redemption. And it's like a different take on what is known more of like Stages of the Cross, which is kind of like a. Like a Catholic tradition. Right. And it's. And people, different churches and different people, different artists kind of take a different approach to it with different amounts of. Of stages to illustrate or create something for, which is super cool. I like it a lot. But so I did my own take on that. And instead of kind of following the traditional stages of the. That other people have and what the Catholic Church kind of integrated, which is great. But some of it isn't directly in scripture. It's kind of inferred. Right. So then I instead went into scripture and then tried to find the stages that I can actually tie in actual passages to and then drew those out specifically. So I might have left out some that were originally in the stages of the cross and then added in other scriptural biblical moments that were up until the cross. And so that, that for me was really a powerful, spiritually like, heavy thing to create. And so I did. I think it was 12 pieces. 12. Pretty big, 22 by 30 drawing. Starting from the Last Supper? No, actually, yeah. It was the Last Supper all the way through the resurrection of Christ. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Cool. [00:17:52] Speaker B: Made all those in charcoal. Every single one. [00:17:54] Speaker A: That's awesome. If we want to see it. Is that something that's still like, we could find on your website, like photos of it? [00:17:59] Speaker B: I don't have it directly on the site. I have. It's in my Instagram if you scroll a little bit. [00:18:03] Speaker A: All right, cool. [00:18:04] Speaker B: But yeah, I do want to make a. An actual section on the website where you can actually click and then just experience that. That project total. But there's so many things I have to work on right now. It's totally. I don't know when I'll get to that. [00:18:16] Speaker A: And the website I always feel like is the most neglected of all the things for me. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Sadly. And it's so important. [00:18:22] Speaker A: But yeah, that's cool. That's interesting. So I totally agree with you about the. Sometimes especially like early faith based movies, I feel like they're trying to not be literal about Jesus they're trying to make it cool, you know, they're trying to make we're so cool. And I'm like, like, just go, either go for it or don't. You know what I mean? Like, it's fine to do something that's metaphorical, but like either one or the other. I feel like sometimes they're like trying to like walk this line of like, we won't really say Jesus, but we'll just talk about faith in general. Which it's fine. You know people, anyone who's making stuff, I'm like, good on you. But yeah, I totally agree with the like making, just kind of like going for it directly. But I'm interested to hear about your version of doing a painting of Jesus because I have my thoughts on what I would kind of like enjoy about it and what I would say about it. I would love to hear kind of like, how do you want to do it differently or what do you find when you do it and what you're drawn to while you do it? Like, how does it end up being different than when other people do it? [00:19:21] Speaker B: I've been also trying to process into, work through in my own career. Even to this day. I've noticed that it's hard to make something that's not historical, that is literal, but is also not cheesy. Right? Yeah. So that line is very thin. It could get cheesy really quick. So I try to like keep as much of the expression, the darkness and the kind of chaos and order like, like juxtaposition that I usually have in all of my work. I try to implement that and not lose any of it in the actual Christian faith based works I do have. Which are they kind of technically all are because I am Christian artist. But yeah, it's more the explicit, like more like clearly literal pieces I'm talking about. Right. Where I'm gonna keep those elements and apply the different subject matter to the style instead of, instead of changing the style because the subject matter. So serious. Right? Totally. So I want to make something powerful, something that's captivating that, that I kind of found captivates people through my other normal portraits and other normal work and kind of apply the biblical ideas to that. And so that's how I kind of try to make it not cheesy and kind of more personal. Right. Like, how does this apply to me? Not necessarily like, oh, this is Jesus. Jesus loves you. It's like, how does that affect you? What does that even mean? What's the darkness? I know there's a Lack of. For me, I've seen there's a lack of the reflection of the reality of the crucifixion and the darkness and the depth and. And the pain of it, the blood of Christ and being scourged. Like, all these things are very, very real, very important and, and they're very heavy things. And I want to be able to reflect those things in a visual way and with. While maintaining it to be a beautiful work of art in the end. Because we know the story, right? [00:21:22] Speaker A: Totally. [00:21:22] Speaker B: I know, like, I kind of grew up being my parents and church kind of the idea was. And I don't blame this. I don't blame them for this, but the idea is like, Jesus on the cross, Jesus being beaten and bruised. Like, that's like, we don't want to see that because he was resurrected, right? Like, he didn't stay there, which I completely agree. He didn't stay there, he was resurrected. But like, we also need to know the depths of each element of the story, right? Like, how much did he really endure, like, with a. For us? And, and so I think that's so important to communicate and something that we lack as like a very Western face, you know? And I mean, the Christianity in the west is like, it's, it's. It sometimes misses some of the heavier elements and kind of avoids what we have to work through a little bit. So trying to bring that back in a little bit and, and what that means for us in our life. Another thing that kind of impacted me was early on I had started right when my, I guess brand name or artist name, whatever that looks like, start to grow. And I made a couple of Jesus pieces, just portraits, like some very simple portraits. And that was already a difficult thing for me to do because I thought maybe I'm going to like, fraction my audience, people are going to get mad, whatever. But I didn't. Took a step of faith, and he was super faithful in that. But I had to work through the idea. And a lot of my friends challenged me that, like, okay, what does it mean to not have like, the commandment of the image of God and not to make an image of God? And so, like, how does that affect your work? Should you not be doing this? Right. And so that was kind of. That kind of rocked my world because I thought about it, but I didn't think about it that much because I was like, I see images of Jesus all over the place. [00:22:57] Speaker A: Totally. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. But actually diving deeper into that and really doing like a theological study, not just a, like, not just a Literal face value, interpretation, but more like a depth. Like what does God mean by this study? And I. Something that resonated with me was that a lot of those commandments have this deeper, more personal, more heart oriented problem along with it. Right. Like they're not just trying to like the commandments themselves that, that God ordains are not just designed to kind of change actions, but hearts that actually resulted in action changed. Right. So for example, the idolatry issue. God didn't want us to make images of him because he was going to give us the perfect image of himself, not because he hates statues. Right. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:54] Speaker B: And obviously there was a big problem with worshiping actual idols, but like it was, it was because Christ is the perfect image of God. Right. And so like that's how you, like nobody can come up with Christ because it's the perfect image of God, so we shouldn't make an image of God. So. So like kind of recognizing that's the depth and the meaning of that actual commandment. Yeah, so I'm not actually. Yeah, so it's, it's like I'm pointing at something else, you know? Yeah, you're not that don't worship art. Like I'm pointing at something else. But it does, it does like influence us in our own spiritual life. So that's how I worked through that. It was kind of a crazy time for me, but. [00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I could totally see if I was in, if doing work of like directly of Jesus, I would be like, oh yeah, I need to figure out exactly what this means, you know, biblically. That's cool. [00:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's not a light thing to. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah, you said one thing that man, I really connect with early on, it was just about. I feel like, I think I felt this way about film stuff as well, but it's just like what I feel called to is light, but light in the midst of darkness, you know what I mean? I feel like the light shines the most in the midst of darkness. And even in all good arc of storytelling, it's like if you want to show redemption, like where are you going to come from? You know what I mean? You can't start at redeemed and end at redeemed, you know what I mean? It's like it doesn't work that way. And so I really do feel like the cross itself, you know, there's a metaphorical call to the cross for all believers. And I think that's something that is sacrificial. That's. It's dark, it's It's. It's bloody. You know, it's. There is, like, metaphorically, literally, it's on both sides. And so I do think maybe even there's a lot of people in the West, a lot of younger people that have the idea of chasing after the Lord has been so sanitized that they're like. It's just like a. Just like a little bonus. Like, they're not drawn to it because it's not really of substance. You know, it doesn't really make space for that, you know? So I feel like even in my thought on your. All your Jesus work, as well, is like, oh, there's the presence of hardship and pain, chaos and beauty, you know, kind of this, like, hauntingly beautiful thing, you know, it's cool. [00:26:05] Speaker B: So I think that that's kind of, for me, like, philosophically with, like, the problem of evil. Right. That everybody has to wrestle with. I think that's kind of what it is. It's like, there's a context in which we have to recognize the good and the separated from any sort of evil doesn't really mean anything. Right. So there's that. That is this, like, darkness that I want to bring to my artwork that kind of sets the perspective of the light and of the hope. And sometimes it's literal. Right. Sometimes it's so much dark art, like, around it, and then there's, like, the light part where's the light hitting and. And this speaks to something so much higher. But. Yeah. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Have you found any patterns to moments you get inspired to make something? [00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah, so many. Some of which is, like, music is huge. I listen to a lot of classical music. [00:26:51] Speaker A: I noticed the music you put with or, you know, or you or whoever puts with your work on Instagram. I'm like, oh, there's so much good music on here. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully, like, there's a lot of cool stuff to pull from there, from all those artists. It's. Yeah. I like the more depth, emotional, like, pool of different instruments. Right. And orchestral instruments. And that just gives me some natural inspiration. I pull a lot of that from. From music, but also kind of like, some life situations, different emotions, different, like, things I even hear about other people. It's not necessarily me experiencing these things, but sometimes I hear some experiences that. That really I want to kind of communicate without having to be so literal about it. Right. And that's why, like, I use the human face for the most part. It's because that's, like, what humans actually relate with the most and could recognize better than anything in the world. It's visually the human face, which also makes it very difficult, because if you draw it, like, wrong, and it kind of mess it up a little bit, you're screwed. Like, people are going to. Everybody's going to know, no matter if they're an artist or not. Right. So it's. [00:27:56] Speaker A: It's hard, at least forgiving. [00:27:58] Speaker B: Exactly, Exactly. That's why people avoid it so much. But so it's a hard thing to accomplish, but it's so powerful when it is accomplished. And so communicating those emotions and those experiences and our. And our human experience through the artwork is what I'm passionate about. Because regardless if you're a person of faith or not, you have a spiritual life, and you have these experiences that you can't explain that you have to work through. No one's exempt. So communicating those things is so important to me. But. And then I would say also, like, I just. I cherish my time in the Word each morning and try to prioritize that over pretty much anything, because that's, like, the source of life for me. Right. My prayer time, my God time. And in that, I almost always leave with quite a few ideas. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Hmm. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Kind of like what you're talking about earlier with, like, the worship and then getting those ideas in my. In your head. And I, like, that was happening to me this Sunday, and I was kind of like, okay, focus, focus. But then I'm like, these ideas are good, though. And so, yeah, like, I think that there's a time for worship and a time for reflection based on the worship. Like, how does that impact my life? You know, it could be moral. It could be creative. And. And so my relationship with God, my faith, is a huge part of my own inspiration and ideas, and I don't want to contradict that part of my life either with what I make. And because the art world is very. It could be very ugly, you know, in some. Some not gathering God honoring ways that can actually help your career out a lot. And so it's dangerous. It's very dangerous. Like, promoting these, like, really dark, sinful behaviors to other people in our flesh. We want to do that. And so, like, being careful about that is super important to me, too. [00:29:51] Speaker A: That's cool. That's good. So I kind of. Growing up in the church, I knew from a young age that I was supposed to be, like, reading the Bible regularly, you know? But I was always, like, a difficult thing for me where I felt like it was just kind of, like, a little. I felt dry, like I. Or I wasn't Understanding what it was. I don't know if this is sort of like on another topic, but do you feel like it's. If you're reading it every day, it makes me feel like that you definitely feel like maybe the Lord is speaking to you through it or that it's teaching you something. And so has it always been that way for reading the Bible for you? Or did something change as you've implemented, you know, stuff or. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, not at all. It was. I was always really. I. I hated reading, honestly. And I didn't, I didn't like reading. I didn't like the idea of sitting still and doing something quietly. And so just the fact that understanding the gospel specifically and how it applies to me and like God softening my heart in that has radically changed me to actually desire that. And I know that not everyone's there, but like, if I can get there, anyone can get there, because that's like the opposite for me. Right? [00:31:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:03] Speaker B: And so, yeah, there are obviously there's days that are more dry than other days. But, but if, if you like, really grasp what Christ has done for you in your life, I think the outpouring of wanting to know him more, wanting to have your relationship with your. With God strengthened and actually knowing what he has for you instead of what you want for yourself is just, it's. It's just a drastically natural response to that. And I feel like I've been captured by that, so at times more than other times. But that's what kind of drives me for that. It's not necessarily, I have to do this, I'm going to do this. And some mornings it kind of does start like that a little bit. [00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:42] Speaker B: But then he redeems the time and a lot of times and not get something out of it. Right. Even, I don't know, reading through Leviticus can be dry sometimes, but it does if you, if you're in the right context of thought, you can actually see how it's valuable in so many ways. But yeah, like, I was camping this weekend and it was a crazy storm up in Flagstaff, overseeing Sedona. It's called Edge of the World. And man, it was beautiful. It's like a. We're like camping at. It was my friend's bachelor's bachelor party. We were camping at like a 2, 500 something foot cliff. And like just like in the morning, waking up at the sunrise and just walking down a little bit on that cliff, sitting and reading the Word and then seeing God's creation and just like the Magnitude and breadth of what you don't really get when you're, like, sitting at your dining room table or on your couch as much. That was also super, super moving to me. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Seeing him as, like, the. The first creative. Right. Like, the original creative, you would call, like, I. I had a. A sermon that I gave at a men's retreat not too long ago that was like, I. I mentioned God being the original creative, but he created X Nihilo, Right. Like, out of nothing. He made this stuff. And we get a taste of that because out of the things he made, we get to, like, move them and mess them around and. And take them and present them in different ways as artists, you know? [00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:08] Speaker B: And. And we can kind of get inspiration from the original creator, creative God, you know? So that's super powerful to me. [00:33:16] Speaker A: There was this pastor who. He was like, I'm on a plane. He was a friend of mine, but he was talking to a guy, and of course he's like, what do you do? And he's always, like, hesitant. Like, I'm a pastor. And he was like, oh. And they were talking about how he doesn't. The other guy doesn't believe in God. And he's like, I wish I did. I just can't, you know? So he was like, if you really want to. He's like, next time. Because the guy was talking about going on hikes. He's like, next time you're on a hike and you turn around a bed and you see something beautiful, he's like, just say, God, is that you? And he's like, just see what happens, you know? And he's like, I didn't think anything of it. And then he's like. Weeks went by and a month went by, and I got a call from this guy, and he was like. I was, like, wagging with my family, and I saw this mountain, and I was like, oh, I remembered what you said. I was like, God, is that you? And he's like. He said yes. He's like, I had this deep sense. I didn't hear it, but this deep, like, yes, like Alpha and Omega. And it was like, just to hear that from someone who, like, doesn't even, like, believe in God, you know, doing his own thing. I just thought it was. It was cool to hear, you know? And I felt like that's. I feel like in some ways, that's what art can do, you know, in the right context. It can be like, why is this so important? Why do I. Why does this make me feel so much? Why does it bypass my analytical thought, you know, and it's like I feel like there's. The Lord can use it, you know. So. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an incredible story. That's so cool. I mean like we have, we all have. I like to say, like we have a God shaped hole in our heart that nothing but God can fill. Right? [00:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:47] Speaker B: And so everybody has that desire. And, and I, I've seen that like I had a show, I've had some shows in like New York and la and at those shows I've noticed that some people, they'll, they'll come up to the artwork in the, the Christian artwork. Like I have one of Mary holding Christ. Right? [00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:07] Speaker B: And it was really big and holding the body of Christ and so like a Pieta style piece. And so I had multiple conversations that night in front of that piece and all of which were with non believing people, like people of no faith. And they're like crying, telling me how much like this is moving them. They don't know what's happening. Yeah. And, and like they're want the Lord, they want God. And, and like I was able to show the gospel with them, which is cool. I don't know where they're at now. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Wow. [00:35:34] Speaker B: But like it was, it was so like I walked into that show thinking, oh cool, hope something sells. I hope like people really receive the work. They like it, whatever. [00:35:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:45] Speaker B: And there was. The amount of people I have to pray for is crazy. And I was like, oh man, this is a way different experience than I anticipated. [00:35:53] Speaker A: So cool. [00:35:54] Speaker B: And yeah, it was transformative to me. I'm like, man, I could be a little bit selfish with my work and I should be a little bit less selfish and really give it to the Lord. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah, man, that's so cool. I'm like just experiencing what you're talking about for the first time. So we just did the screenings and it's like half the audience is believers because they just know me personally. And the other half is like atheists. Or like even if there's something more extreme than atheists, it's there as well. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:22] Speaker A: And which I love. And there's as I'm like I mentioned the Q and A I was nervous about because I'm like, I feel like I have to talk about the things that matter to me to some degree. I don't want to push it, but I like have to just like, just to be like emotionally honest, you know. And all the people that I was the most worried about, who I feel like would be the most offended What I thought would be the most offended by the faith side of it, like, came up to me crying. Like, literally, like, the key ones all came up to me crying, hugging me and being like, this is so amazing. You know? This is. You know, so. And I just felt like there's this new thing where I'm like, if I had just had that Q and A without the artwork before, that would not have gone that way. I mean, I think God really can use. And it's not always about, like, how. I don't. I think sometimes artwork can just be a worship response, and that's plenty. But I do feel like it can also be used to, like, bypass this, like, analytical, brain guard, thought process of, like, what team are you on? And just go straight to the heart, you know? And it sounds like that's exactly what was happening at your show, you know? That's so cool. [00:37:30] Speaker B: That's exactly it, man. Yeah. How would I be able to see what you make? [00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's only in, like, screenings right now because of the festival run. Yeah. I do think there it's submitted to festivals, but it'd be 20, 26 in Arizona. Yeah. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Oh, perfect. Well, you gotta please tell me if. [00:37:44] Speaker A: It does definitely do that. [00:37:45] Speaker B: Thank you, man. [00:37:46] Speaker A: But it was just so cool to see, like. And it's like. It's a thriller, right? There's, like, a scary element. So it's based upon. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against principality. [00:37:56] Speaker B: So it's essentially just saying armor of God passage. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's saying things are spiritual, like, your enemy is not people as much as you think it is. You know, it's not. It's. It's spiritual. [00:38:05] Speaker B: It looks like it, but it's actually deeper than that. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it kind of deals with, like, some therapy stuff in a cool way. It walks this line. But all that to say it was just, like, I felt so grateful, and I'm like, the very conversations I fear having. The majority of the work took place through the artwork, you know? [00:38:22] Speaker B: So just go. Yeah. It opens that dialogue. [00:38:26] Speaker A: Totally. Maybe this is an obvious question, but do you feel like. Like, the Holy Spirit plays a role in the creative process? [00:38:33] Speaker B: I think this is also one that I've been kind of learning more about in my own experience. In hindsight, I, like, I've always known, like, yeah, the Holy Spirit's real. Holy Spirit's third person of the Trinity. It's a he, not an it. You know, that kind of idea. Yeah. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker B: And it's in us, but it's what I thought I was working on, like intuition or logic or just making these decisions and creating something. A lot of times I could look back and be like that, as that was not the sum of those decisions. This is so much more than that. And so now to me, it's a lot more evident in when I am being faithful to what the Lord has for me, that it's him working through me in so many ways, you know. And so I would say drastically more than I'm aware of is actually the Holy Spirit, you know, at least I want that to be the case. And I think looking back at all these different circumstances I find myself in or opportunities and. And conversations I have with people, the more it is evident to me that it's not me. It could never have been. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. Along those lines, even, let's go completely, like, secular point of view on our work, it still seems like the artist doesn't really fully own the meaning of the artwork. I'm curious to hear if this is your experience, but do you feel like we don't necessarily own the meaning of the artwork always. Like, we get to play a role in it, but sometimes it takes on its own thing or it reaches out to people in different ways. But. Yeah. What is your reaction to that? That was kind of a scattered question. [00:40:09] Speaker B: I get the idea. So that I find that very evident in my work as well. A lot of times I'll. As a businessman that I'm learning to kind of be as well, I can kind of see the patterns and my own business analytical side that I'm developing, adapt to what I can create that will actually move. Right. Like, you got to sell work to survive, and. And sometimes I'll see what the need is and fill that need with a piece, regardless of how I'm inspired to make that piece or not per se. Even though I was initially inspired to already make that piece at Soul, now I gotta make something. The same spirit. Even though I'm not necessarily in that moment inspired to make that piece. And after creating it, what I thought was a checklist piece, I could usually look at it again and think, oh, this is. This was happenstance. Like, I. I can see, like, I could almost either revisit what prompted me in the first place to make that, or just the renewed idea behind it that I find, like, kind of flowing through all the other work that I was making. And that's totally out of my control. [00:41:20] Speaker A: I wanted to ask you, are there any. I know you mentioned, like, reading the word regularly. Are There spiritual practices or routines that you kind of just like are part of your week that have been valuable to you. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Yeah, man is so vital for me and my family's life and my marriage. I guess I could just give you a rundown like. So I'm in the Word every day, every morning. I've been in the habit of that for a while now. That just first off foremost, drastically changes my life. I know that some people would rather read at night or scatter or whatever that looks like, and I know it looks different for people, but I think that putting it first and foremost at the beginning of my day kind of sets the tone of like, hey, Lord, I prioritize you. And I've seen him be faithful in that and like to the point of where like, oh wow, I'm gonna have a crappy night of sleep tonight. The kids are waking up every single hour on the hour and I need to wake up in four hours. And that's just to make it on time to something. And then I find myself in a situation like, okay, am I gonna wake up the hour earlier to get into Word and have my time in prayer and sacrifice my sleep time, or am I gonna prioritize my restedness, my breast, my rest over the Lord? And there's, there's been times I've chose both. But when I have actually prioritized him over that man, he's come through and just the energy like he's come through with just sustaining me in so many ways that I probably wouldn't have even happened if I had that extra hour or two of sleep. So totally. So that's just kind of the importance that I've drawn from, from thy time in the Word. So every Sunday we're at church and that's. It's called Hope Bible Church in Arizona, Phoenix. It's just the coolest community. Just a, just a Bible believing church, like exegetical sermons. So just like straight from Scripture, like it's just as, as raw, basic as you could get. You know what I mean? [00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:12] Speaker B: And, and, and they pro, they really focus on discipleship and being able to, you know, be discipled by somebody that knows more than you, experience more than you. At the same time, discipling somebody that has, is walking in the steps that you previously walked. So many peers, right? A lot of people in my season of life that I get to do life with, my wife gets to do life with, you know, play dates with kids and. [00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker B: And dinners with people like that's, that's a huge part of what we do. My wife and I are small, are small group leaders, and we multiply as well. Really? That's awesome. That's awesome. What are you guys studying right now? [00:43:49] Speaker A: We're going through acts right now. Acts 8 is where we're at. Yeah. So our church is doing it, and then we'll like, sermon, discuss, but then also pray for each other. And every Tuesday we have like a home cooked meal and people come over. [00:44:01] Speaker B: And, you know, we do that Wednesdays. Yeah. [00:44:04] Speaker A: That's awesome. So cool. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we're in. We're in Romans, so that's what we're doing too. We're leading a small group of quite a few people. And then also, for some reason, my pastor thinks it's funny to ask me to teach sometimes. And so, like, I'll do. I'll do a couple sermons here and there, some messages, and I actually have one on Friday. I just did one two weeks ago, but for like men's Bible study, men's retreat, stuff like that. So prepping for those is kind of vigorous, kind of time consuming. Right. Like. Like this week for me is brutal, but it's so fruitful and awesome and it's. It's really challenges me. So that part is really cool. Oh, on Sundays, I play. I usually play electric guitar for our worship team. So I'm also playing that. I'm doing that. That's. That's really fun. I only did it because we had a need for it and I used to do it, but I didn't, like, really want to, per se. And then. Yeah. And one. I think one day, one of our. Of our worship leaders was like, dude, you played guitar this whole time and we needed this. Like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm sorry. [00:45:12] Speaker A: Okay, I'm here now. [00:45:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me a little while to learn that one. I think besides, like a lot of different little ministry things here and there. That's kind of the bulk of. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:26] Speaker B: Of what? My ministry practice, my faith practice in my life is a lot of my friends that are not Christian see that and they're just like, oh, Josh, you just, you know, church is not for me. But you just. You're just always doing these things. You're better than us. You, like, like, God likes you more or something like that. Right? Or like, you have. You, like, earned your way into whatever that looks like. And I'm just like, no, that's not the point. You guys don't get it. Like, because my life has been transformed now I get to do these Things. It's not like I'm earning something out of this. So that's where I see. That's where I find myself in my life right now. [00:46:01] Speaker A: That's awesome. It's so encouraging to hear you talk about your church and valuing it and enjoying it. I feel like it's like for the longest time it's been sort of in trend to be like, well, the church has so many issues and everybody. Anything with humans has issues. I think you learn that as you grow up. You're like, oh, everywhere where humans are. But I feel like to be enjoying it and to see the value in it and it's so refreshing. And I feel like I keep hearing more and more of that. I think something is changing in the water. I feel like people are like. I don't know if they're just seeing that. It's like, you can't judge a perfect God based upon imperfect people. You know, like, the people can't be the deciding factor. And. But. But anyway, just. I love hearing. It's so refreshing to hear that you are enjoying, you know, your church. I feel the same way. I go to a church called Reality LA in the middle of Hollywood, and it's very much like just straight out of the Bible. And. [00:46:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:55] Speaker A: You know, people will be getting baptized outside and you can like see the Hollywood sign in the distance and you're like, this is wild. [00:47:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cool. I have to. Whenever I'm in la, I'm always like, oh, which church should I go to? And. Yeah, yeah, I'm originally from there, but, like, I'm never, like, in the area that I grew up in, so. Because I grew up in Whittier, so. And if I'm downtown for like a. Like a show or something, I'm like, I don't know where to go there, so I have to visit sometime. [00:47:20] Speaker A: Yeah, hit me up. We. I used to live downtown at 7th and Spring, and. Okay. But it's. Yeah, yeah, you're welcome anytime. It's. They're very much like. They kind of do a little bit of, like, double worship. There's like a little bit of worship at the beginning and then there's like long worship at the end. So it's a little longer than some people are, like, used to. But I've come to love it. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. She's always like, where's the worship night? At a random church. We gotta go. [00:47:42] Speaker A: But that's awesome. [00:47:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, it's. It's hard because I've had a lot of hard conversations with people that are like, you know, my relationship with God is between me and God alone and nobody else has to get into that. And I'm like, you know, it, it starts there but have like open up scripture, man. Like it, it's like God desires of you to trust him with your relationships, you know, totally. To trust him with other people. Like, like giving, giving you a word, like speaking life into your life. And he uses other people around us, especially like our wives and our church for our second education. And you just can't separate those two things as much as you want to separate those things. Right. Because you put yourself in vulnerable positions where you get hurt. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:27] Speaker B: And it's real. It's like life is, life is ugly sometimes and, and like when we work through small group there's some bad situations that we have to work through and it's totally, it's not fun, it's uncomfortable, there's accountability involved and sometimes church discipline, whatever that looks like. It's so it's good for us though and, and it is a risk and for that to step, to take and trust in God. So that's what I try to encourage people that are hesitant to be part of community or something like that. And yeah, it's reality that might happen. You might get a little bit hurt. But like are you going to trust God with it or are you going to protect your like emotional life over him? Yeah, you know, it's reality. [00:49:09] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah, it's so, so true. I feel like it's, I think in everybody's heart you would like the idea of having long term relationships where when really hard stuff comes up that you don't bail and you work on it. I think everyone would agree to that. But in practice you're like, oh, the Bible literally promises that community will be messy. It's like people that were naturally sworn enemies are now together. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. [00:49:37] Speaker A: So it's in the text, like expect it. But then it's like, man, the beauty that can come from it. You know, we've. I think we're on like year 10 almost of our community group and it's just like the hard conversations. But it's man, it's so cool to just to like every week we, everyone goes around and says how God showed up in their week and to track that for 10 years, it's like watching God's faithfulness through 10 people, it's so cool, you know, and the issues we work through. So I'm such a big believer in it, man. So much I don't know that I would have made the film and the artwork I've done without it because I kind of felt like there was this lying voice to me that was like, oh, artwork is kind of a shallow, like, ministry or, like, being a doctor. Like, not that I was ever going to be a doctor, but there was this voice that said that. That it was shallow. And at the same time, I felt like God was telling me to do it. And because I didn't say it out loud, I just kept it shallow. But the minute I, like, shared it with people who are like, well, God is telling you to do it, I was like, I feel like I could pass a lie detector test that he was telling me to do it. And yet I felt it was shallow. And so it was like, are you gonna go off your feeling or are you gonna be obedient? You know, and that only came through community. It only became, like, kind of being vulnerable and talking about that, you know, so just. It's just cool. What can come through that that you're not always gonna get from just, like, listening to a sermon, you know, I think both go well together. [00:50:53] Speaker B: So, dude, I totally relate. I used to think, like, am I gonna follow God or am I going to make art? And that was my, like, options, per se. Right. That I thought at the time, I didn't realize, like, you could glorify God in your work, you know? I think it was a Brother Lawrence, have you read the book Practicing Presence? Oh, dude. Yeah. And he's, like, mopping floors for glory of God and washing dishes, and apparently he was, like, a sandal repairman for the glory of God while he was, like, walking around barefoot. Like, it's like. It's such insignificant things that, like, in the right context, in the right mindset, can. Can be transformative for our life, you. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Know, Totally kind of to that point about artwork. And is it shallow or is it. For me, what I feel like I find is a lot of believers, especially men for some reason, but feel sort of, like, apprehensive when it comes to ambition because they're like, I don't want to build my own kingdom. You know, it's kind of the phrasing, but then there's also, like, when God's, like, run the race to win. But what is your relationship to ambition? [00:51:55] Speaker B: Like, yeah, that's a really good question. And a really ongoing conversation with my wife and I. An ongoing conversation with, like, my peers and the people that I do life with. I. I mean, I. So just for context, like, we we have a team of, I don't know, it's probably like six or seven people now specifically for matte charcoal. Right. And so that is something that I thought I could do previously or ever even dreamed of doing, but. And we just started a second business of art materials, charcoal drawing materials, trying to. Doing the best we can with that. So that is like, we're pursuing something here. We're trying to scale business and. And we are trying to be profitable in a lot of ways. [00:52:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:42] Speaker B: We'Ve realized that like, early on, when I like my ambition and I got played college soccer, I pursued like a, like graphic design, like art director career that was successful. And those things were not with Christ at the center. And they were very unfruitful, thank goodness. Like. Right. Thank God they were unfruitful. But they are things that I was idolizing. Right. And I knew that because, I mean, different ways you can kind of track where your heart is for idols. But so the ambition there was unhealthy. What was funny is that once I dropped the ambition is when. When the Lord gave me some forms of success to steward. [00:53:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:25] Speaker B: And, and I kind of gave it to him to pursue it further. Every time I leaned in further and I tried to. Not, not perfectly, but every time I lean in for further, I wanted to give it to him and, and, and say, you know, I, I think this would be a wise decision for business. I think it would be like stewarding what he's giving me. Well. And as I make this decision and this maybe risk, risky decision, I want to make sure that it's what the Lord has and I want to be okay. Like, the way I know that if for myself, if my, my pursuit and ambition is unhealthy, is that. Am I okay with if it fails? You know? [00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Like, where am I going to be if this doesn't work the way I intended it to work? If all this year of work, like, yeah, if this entire year of work goes to waste, am I going to be like, grateful? Am I going to be praying? Am I going to be spending time with the Lord? Am I going to be joyful in the Lord or is it going to tear me apart now? And I do have to come back and check my heart on this. But yeah, I do feel that currently I can. I'm. I'm. I'm joyful to kind of know in my heart that the, the things that I'm pursuing right now, if they do kind of go south, even at, even in time, like at times it's better than others. Like, I think I'm gonna be okay. And. But that's. That's the one side of things, right? The idolatry side, the bad pursuit of things. Now, on the other extreme, I would say is. Is not pursuing, like, not seeking out to steward what you've been given. [00:54:56] Speaker A: What? [00:54:56] Speaker B: Like, the parable of talents was really transformative for me in this one, because I used to think, oh, it's bad. Like, the love of money is. Is the root of all evil, right? So. So terrible. So money's terrible. That was the kind of mind, like, idea behind that at first. And then I recognized, like, no, it's. It's your passion for it, Right. Your passion that oversteps everything in your life that's actually dangerous. So what I see in the parable of talent is somebody. People have been giving these things to steward, and a steward is somebody that manages someone else's things. Yeah. And so if you really realize that everything you've been given in life, and this is for every single person, artist, not artist, you know, any type of job, no matter where you're at the things, if you readily recognize where they come from, they're gods. And those things you've received from God, not of your own deserving. Like, you didn't deserve these things no matter how hard you worked on them. So how are you stewarding those things? Right? Like, if I've been given a business that I didn't necessarily set out to accomplish, and so now that automatically puts me in the category of, like, how am I going to steward this? I'm going to. Am I going to bury it? I'm going to protect it and make sure it doesn't collapse and that's it? Or am I going to try to grow it and glorify God in it and, you know, make the most of what I've been given? And I think that's what it is to really steward our talents or our gifts. Right? And so, like, my wife and I have those conversations. Should it just be me doodling at home, shipping off a piece? I'm totally okay with that. But if the Lord has put stuff in front of me to pursue, I'm gonna do it until he shows me. I should not do it just like that, and I'm gonna be okay with it. That's kind of what I want. That's where I want to be with that. And he's been super faithful as of right now. And so I'm just gonna keep going. [00:56:55] Speaker A: You know, I love that answer. I feel like I haven't heard people talk about the other side of that coin, which is like being a steward and the talents and like, you know, the expectation in the Bible of the talents is like you were supposed to be fruitful with this, right? [00:57:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:57:10] Speaker A: If you just kept what I gave you, that's a like, you know, failure sounds like a strong word, but it was like the master was very disappointed. Yes, very disappointed. It was a fear based decision. [00:57:20] Speaker B: It is a fear based decision. Yeah. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so good. Oh man, I'm enjoying this conversation so much. I feel like it's. To me it's wild that how little I knew of like your art, like belief system per se. And just to get to chat and hear this, it's so cool. And I feel like it's like it's a sermon for artists, you know. So thank you for doing it so good. [00:57:43] Speaker B: No, of course. Yeah, yeah. [00:57:45] Speaker A: I want to be respectful of your time here to get our last few questions in, but. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Oh no, take. Take as much time as you need now. I've worked a gap in here, so we're good. [00:57:54] Speaker A: Awesome. Cool. I heard you talk a little bit about and I've like, I know like emailing with Julia and then hearing you on like maybe a podcast from a year ago about I think your relationship to like social media and phones and stuff like that. Can you tell me about like we were kind of talking about spiritual practices, but I would love to hear kind of like, because when so much of a business is based upon online things, it can be so difficult. Even as I've done this podcast, I used to have Instagram things but I kept the apps deleted. I would download them to upload and delete them. [00:58:28] Speaker B: That's good, man. [00:58:29] Speaker A: But as I'm like, as I'm doing this podcast stuff and the YouTube and it's like it's just on my phone more. And then I so easily get stuck in like a vertical video flipping and I feel my mind numbing and now I want more dopamine, you know, and, but anyway, I would love to hear what is your like, what is your view on social media phone use? Like and how do you, how you currently using it? [00:58:53] Speaker B: Oh man, this is, this has been a transformative part of my life too because I, I have a bit of an addictive personality. Like I'll. If there's something I enjoy, I, I like dive in a little too unhealthily. And so for a long time that's what it was like with social media. Like I would browse a lot and I wouldn't even upload anything. I just browse a bunch of social media, spend like, thoughtless hours on my phone. But so what happened was, I think it was a few years ago, maybe three years ago, that I finally got rid of my, like, actual iPhone. And I. And there's, like, different reasons for that. One of them was, like, time wasting. Also. Purity was a big factor in that. But now I have a. This is a light phone. This is my phone. My actual daily phone. [00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:40] Speaker B: They'Re awesome. Yeah, we had. Yeah, it's. It's just like black and white. Well, I looked up how to get a thumb phone, right? And I saw. I found the light phone is the one previously. This was like an ink screen. E. Ink screen or something like that. So you can't have any images. It's just like. It's just straight up call and text, essentially, and a terrible navigation system. And it was so frustrating to transition into that. But, like, I found myself kind of like, purging my. My. My habits of just scrolling. And it was so hard for a time, especially because we had just like, really started getting traction with Matt Charcoal that, like, I really had to figure out, how am I going to be able to upload and how am I going to be able to interact with people and do all these online things when. When I have, like, a dumb phone, right? But it was a. It was a. A sacrifice, but it actually, Lord was faithful in it. So I had that phone for the longest time. It was this cracked little piece of junk, and everywhere I went, that's all I had, right? And I had to memorize directions. And it was. It was so crazy, but it was awesome. And now, like, they reached out and they were like, hey, do you want a phone? And so I got the new one. And it's fantastic. You know, it's. [01:00:50] Speaker A: That's awesome. [01:00:51] Speaker B: I almost feel like I did my time with the crappy one and then Ward's like, all right, I'll give you a break. And then now this has, like, a camera and it has, like, really good navigation. But so. And there are also really cool people out there in New York doing that. But I do, like, I would tend to, like, really scroll and waste a lot of time that way. And so actually getting rid of that part of my life was. Made me so much more efficient in a. In a really worldly sense to actually get the things that I need to get done, be more present with my wife, with my kids, and so actually made me read more, you know, extracurricular stuff. Not just scripture. And so that's been something I'm never gonna go back to. Like, I don't think I'm ever gonna put another smartphone in my pocket ever again. And a lot of people will, A lot of people tell me, like, you can't do that. You know, like, I can't, I can't do that. My job depends on it. And I'm like, my response for that, it's really, it's kind of a mean one. But I'm, I tell them, like, my job is only like social media. You could almost boil it down to that. Right? Like, like everything that I have is because of social media for my work. And if I could get rid of it permanently, like completely essentially, then everybody can. Like, you could get a work phone if you have a laptop or like a, like a MacBook and it could connect to Wi Fi, you're probably going to be fine. And if you're not like around that, you probably shouldn't be working. Right. So like, there is like a work life balance that is achievable and it takes sacrifice. It really does. It's uncomfortable. You have to purge yourself of some habits of unlocking your phone and, and, and checking these things and email and all that. Like, I know there's a lot of problems with that, but I, I say, like, you can do it. And I, I always turn to, if it's in a church setting, like Matthew chapter five, like, like, like gouge out your eye to keep you from sinning. You know, cut off your arm to keep you from, like, these are, these are good things. Like your eyes are good to see their, their tools. Right. Your arm is good. Like, it's a good tool to have. But if it's causing you to sin and if it's creating some type of destructive habit in your life. [01:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Cut it off and it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to hurt and it's going to be, it's going to end. It's going to save you. Right. Like, it's going to save you ultimately. And so it's like, what do you value more most? [01:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:12] Speaker B: And so I know it's really extreme. I don't expect everybody to do that, but it's been so fruitful for me. And, and it's just. Yeah, we don't have TVs in our house and, but we did have a movie night last night. So like with my family and I, we have a projector and I'll hook up my laptop to the projector, hit it on the wall. And we'll, like, make a massive bed with our couches. Yeah. A bunch of snacks and stuff with the kids. They love it because it's like a once a week thing or once every two weeks thing. And. And it's like. It's like an actual, like, it's like a redeemed time with the family. Right. Like an intentional time. And they look forward to it and they're not just on screens all day. Not being grateful of that, you know? [01:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:54] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's. That's kind of where we're at with technology and all that. [01:03:59] Speaker A: My, like, heart is burning while you're saying all this. I kind of have been feeling like in the past few weeks, the Lord is calling me to that as well. And, like, even I think it's really the, like, I had a time in my life when I was, like, you know, addicted to porn, and it was like a daily thing. I also didn't think it mattered. Luckily, it's not the case anymore. So I'm like, oh, everything should be fine then. But I'm like, oh, man, this mindless scrolling is also like, you know, also I feel like all algorithms eventually lead to, like, content you shouldn't be looking at, but just to keep you in. [01:04:29] Speaker B: But for sure. [01:04:30] Speaker A: But I just feel like it just so. I'm like, man, what if I was just reading during this time? You know? And, like, it's amazing how I'd be like, oh, I haven't had time to read this book. And I'm like, oh, I have had time to read this book. I just been distracted. And I feel like that's another thing I've heard about. It's like, are you overwhelmed or are you distracted? There's a difference. And sometimes I think we're just overwhelmed, you know, with our kids, too. I grew up in a household with. We didn't have TV that you could turn on, but we had a screen that we could do movie nights on together. So that was the environment I grew up in, and I loved it. [01:05:03] Speaker B: Okay, cool. [01:05:04] Speaker A: And it's funny that I'm now drawn to making movies. I'm like, I think there's something there to that. It's about kids, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's like a redeemed version. With our kids, we don't do almost no screen time as well. But I'm like, I think I need to implement that on myself more and more. I just think there's, like, consuming and creating, and they're kind of like, the more I kind of consume Meaningless stuff. The less I'm inclined to create at times, you know? [01:05:31] Speaker B: Yes, yes, very much so. I remember too because the stimulation happens like when you create. But then if the stimulation is happening when you're watching something alone habitually now, you don't have that energy to create. [01:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's also like you get a flavor for that stimulation and now it's like, oh, I need it to be more stimulating when I create, you know, and totally. So I also heard like Christopher Nolan, you know, one of my favorite film directors, doesn't have a cell phone. And that's just like at all, you know, and he's an assistant, you know. Yeah, but. But still it's like he's like, oh, I'm not. He's like, I'm not a. I'm a filmmaker. I'm not like a. I don't roll calls. And he's like, why would I need a phone? [01:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I kind of relate to that. Like, I don't have the passcodes to the devices in here at all. And so like I had to actually call Julia to get into her. This is her comp. I don't even. Yeah, because I was like, I can't. I have all this passcode protected stuff and, and. But I know that's not realistic for everyone, right? Yeah, like I thankfully I have people that could actually do these things for me, reach out to people for me. I know that's not realistic, but. Yeah, but there are like ways you can actually work towards that, you know, and you know, have that smartphone there for when you are working. [01:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Maybe a small step people can take if they want is one thing I've done is you can make your phone black and white, which then gives you way less stimulus. And then deleting the apps unless downloading them if you need them, you know. But man, that's so good. Yeah. I think that I feel like I'm on the road. I'm like, I think the Lord might be telling me, I think I could do it, you know, because there's work that can happen on a computer for me. And it's very different when I go to my desk at a computer than like in my pocket anytime, you know. [01:07:15] Speaker B: But dude, try it, man. I know, I know it's going to be fruitful. I'm pretty certain. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure they encourage you that way. [01:07:23] Speaker A: Right? I'm have to check out. Check out a light phone again. [01:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. They could be a little expensive, but totally worth it. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I'LL wrap us up here. But any spiritual advice that you would give to your 20 year old self. [01:07:37] Speaker B: Or like the thing is like I look at that time and I'm like, there's so many things I had to be, had to experience to get to, to grow totally that like somebody telling me these things wouldn't have actually probably prompted the right change. But, but if, if it was verbally, I would say like, like if you, if you pursue God wholeheartedly, purely surrender every part of your life to him. Like every nook and crank, like even the dirty parts, right? Even the nasty parts, parts you want to hide. If you really do surrender this to the Lord, he's faithful, he'll redeem that and you will be in a much better place than depending on yourself, right? And also he's going to give you more enjoyment and pleasure than you thought you could get in things that are not of Him. [01:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:30] Speaker B: And, and it's something that's not, it's not very obvious at first, but it's totally worth it. Like I would say that that side of the Spirit, that's the spiritual side, right? And the more practical, more I guess worldly perspective of that similar thing is in a very applicable way would be like just, just to have an overwhelming desire for. Oh yeah, delayed gratification. There it is. So I would say like most things operate on the principle of delayed gratification, right? And that doesn't mean you have to throw everything of your life that's enjoyable out every day. But I would say that like build the majority of your life around delayed gratification and you will find yourself in places you thought you never would, right? Because if you're living your life for the gratification of the moment, it's not going to be anything but that. And it will not change at all. And I, and I, I always see that, like I see the principle in scripture all the time. I used to think it was just like an idea for business, idea for life. But you see it in scripture, right? Like, like fight the good fight, like finish the race, endure to the end. That's really what that is. It's endurance. It's doing something for, for the future and like an eternal mindset. It's something that you have to grow into and understand later on, right? It's not something that you're just in your flesh, in your, in your own immature ways you can understand. But it really is true. The long term is more important. The long term is, is really where you'll find yourself making the Right. Decisions. That's what I would tell myself. That's good, because that just encapsulates it all, you know? [01:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Doesn't matter. Of the little. That envelopes every decision you make. I love it. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Is there currently something you feel like God may be calling you towards now? [01:10:27] Speaker B: I think it's kind of two sides of it. It's like one of those business side of. Of just pursuing to grow in business, kind of take on more responsibility, grow in my ability to lead others. And. And that's the business side of things. Right. So, like, how to manage a team, how to pour into others, how to make sure that they're as effective as they can be. [01:10:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:48] Speaker B: And at the same time, being as responsible as I can be and actually providing the work that gives them work and being faithful in all the artwork I need to create. Like, that's. That's actually what God is, I feel like, is calling me to. That I need to really grow in because I'm kind of up and down in that. And that same thing is. Is applicable to family and church, because in family, parenting is super hard. I don't know how old your kids are, but yeah, it's so 9 and 5. Yeah. [01:11:15] Speaker A: But yeah. [01:11:16] Speaker B: Okay, cool. That's awesome. I have. I have two and two and three year old. And so, like, they're at that age where it's like, man, this is real. And these little. These little creatures have minds of their own. [01:11:28] Speaker A: Totally. [01:11:28] Speaker B: And it is so hard to get them in line with what you want them to do. Right. So that's really challenging. And that's also a leadership issue. That's an example issue. And. And that into church. I find myself in a position of teaching a lot more often than I wanted to. I've never seen. I've never, like, sat down like, oh, I have a spiritual gift of teaching. I have a spiritual gift of leadership or whatever that looks like. I've never thought that, and I still don't necessarily think that, but I've been getting pushed to do that by, like, elders at a church and. And. And other people that I just find myself in these situations. And I'm like. Like, I kind of have a conversation with God sometimes. Like, God, I don't. I'm not good at talking. I'm not good at phrasing what I think, and that's why I draw. So why are you making me do this? You know what I mean? And so. And because for a while I was kind of saying no, and I'm saying yes a little more. And so. But that requires growth in me because I'm not a systematic thinker. Like, I have to. I'm not analytical, so I have to really work towards that. And, like, this morning, I forgot my key to my studio space, my gallery space, so I had to wait. And I'm usually in here like an hour or two before everyone else, and I had to wait till the next person got here, but instead I had to go to a coffee shop down the street, and I just worked on this sermon I gotta give on Friday. And, man, it's. It's hard, you know? [01:12:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:57] Speaker B: Like, just to do an exegesis of the passage. How does that applies? How to teach that? In what order to teach that? And, And. And how does. How does God want this? And how. Like, it's so difficult. Right? And so that's. That's kind of where I think God is calling me at the time being in my flesh. I want to say no to most of those things. Like, no, I'm not going to manage a business. I'm an artist. I'm not going to teach. I want to consume and learn myself. I'm not going to parents. I'd rather have some time for myself. Like, that's where I find myself. Yeah. Yeah, totally. [01:13:37] Speaker A: I mean, I relate to so much what you're saying. [01:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. [01:13:40] Speaker A: Good. That's good. Awesome, dude. Thank you so much. Can I. Can I end us a little prayer for you? [01:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [01:13:47] Speaker A: Okay. Lord, I thank you that you are at work in Josh's life, that you always have been. Lord, I thank you just this time, getting to hear from him and the wisdom that he's sharing. Lord. And I just pray a blessing over him and his family, his children. Lord, I pray that you would continue to empower him to make beautiful work, honest work, and not just in paintings, but in his life and in his speaking in a sermon. Lord, I pray that you are leading him to speak. Lord, I feel like there's, as you might say, there's not a spiritual gift of preaching per se. Lord, I think that there's so clearly a spiritual gift of, like, honesty and vulnerability and authenticity and then this strong desire for faithfulness. And what a powerful combination to want to seek faithfulness and to be honest. I feel like that is a gift. And I pray that you would just empower that in his church and his family, Lord. And I thank you for that. You're so clearly at work in that. Yeah, I just pray for his relationship with his wife, Lord. Lord, I pray that it would just Be a delight that there would not only be meaningful, but it would be fun, Lord. The joy of the Lord is our strength, Lord. I pray that over joy of your joy over him and his whole family, Father. And everything his hand touches, Lord. I pray it would be blessed. And not for his sake, Lord, but for yours, Lord, because you're stewarding what you've given him, Father. And I thank you that your work. I just pray for that sermon coming up, Lord, that you would just speak through him. And I know that you will, Lord. I pray that it's your words, Lord. I've seen people who just stutter through the whole sermon and everybody gets saved and encounters the Lord. And I've seen great speakers who bring everyone to fall asleep, Lord. So I just thank you that the power is yours. And we just pray that to speak through him and bless his business, Father, as he teaches and leads, Lord. I pray you would empower him, Lord. And we thank you, Lord, in Jesus name, Amen. [01:15:38] Speaker B: Can I pray for you real quick? [01:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that. [01:15:40] Speaker B: All right. Dearly Father, thank you so much for this conversation. I'm able to have Nathan, thank you for just leading him in the pursuit of glorifying you with his work, his creative abilities and, and such an amazing calling that you've called him to. I pray that you bless his. His business in this and his. His podcast. I could see that. That looks to me like you'll. You'll use this for so many people for. For edifying, for sanctifying them and, and for just giving, giving life into this world through this. I pray for his continued faithfulness in this that you're able to just come alongside him, give him wisdom and how to operate through this. I know it's. It could be hard at times. You know, I just pray a blessing over him in his marriage and his family and his church that, that you just maintain the fruitfulness of that. Maintain the fruitfulness of his small group of those people he spent so much time with because you've been so faithful in that. I know, Lord, that it's not because of them and it's not because of what they say necessarily, but it's because of you working in them that they're able to have this amazing life to live together. And yeah, I just pray for an overwhelming sense of truth and inspiration from this project that he's doing. And yeah, thank you for just letting us connect together. It's been so fruitful. It's been such a blessing. Thank you, Lord. It's in your name. We pray Amen. [01:17:01] Speaker A: Amen. Dude, thank you so much, man. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, thanks for having me. It's awesome what you're doing. Very inspiring.