Michael & Meredith Mauldin | Worship & Culture Making

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Meredith and Michael Mauldin. So they both spent seven years pioneering worship and songwriting culture at Upper Room, helping shape the whole worship collective and launched even their label and publishing stuff. But so much of the music worship that you probably hear, that I hear and worship too, is from Upper Room. And songs like I thank God, featuring Dante, Bo, Defender, Surrounded, which is how I fight my battles. I feel like I listen to the song every day, but there's hundreds of millions of downloads. But more than anything, they've really just ushered in this. I feel like they've ushered a generation into worship in a really beautiful way. I've gotten to spend some time with them as well, and to me, it's so clear that they just bravely chase after the Lord and trust him or go wherever he sends. I know they lived in Israel for a long time, and, you know, Michael being kind of this worship pastor executive director with Upper Room, but also as a filmmaker, he just feels this deep call from the Lord to transform culture through media. So they've also co founded Song Lab Music, which is a ministry offering workshops across the country, the globe to other worshipers and leaders to craft heartfelt worship songs that are, like, rooted in personal testimony and prayer. And to me, it's just so clearly discipleship of people who feel called to create. And so I feel like they're perfect people to talk to. And I'm just scratching the surface on how God has used them. But you should check out their Song Lab podcast. You can hear their full testimonies. So I love this conversation with them. I think you will too. So let's talk art and Faith with Mike and Meredith Malden. I always love starting out with, like, when God became real to you. [00:01:39] Speaker B: So I grew up similar to you, where it was like always, you know, grown up with my whole life. Knew about the Lord. Had really cool testimonies of my parents and. But I do remember, I think, early, early twenties, having a moment where I was like, you know what? My parents have all these testimonies, but I don't have any. It was like the realization. And I'd gone to a church service where he was like, you know, Jacob wrestled with God, you know, and he was like, I would get in your closet and say, God, I wanna know you. Like, I want that moment. And it really hit me hard. And so I just remember doing this walk around this park that was by my house, and I was like, God, I don't wanna live off just my parents testimonies. I Don't want this just to be something I know about. I want to know it. Like, I wanna know you and I wanna have those stories now. And I mean, everything shifted from that moment. Like, I feel like it was a Holy Spirit, total change where I was after him and not just the cultural. It's right, it's good, you know, and I'd always believed it and. But it was a massive shift for me that wrestle with God. God, I really want to have you active in my life. I want you to move. And he did. [00:02:47] Speaker A: That's cool. Is there a example of like after that moment on that something felt different or is there a moment that like you felt like you were. Whether it was hearing from him or he was guiding you or just experiencing him or. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like it was both. And I feel like all of a sudden then there was these moments of like, I actually, you know, saw him working in my life versus it being like, I'm going to bring my Bible and I'm going to read and I'm going to do the right things. It was like I saw him leading, I saw him moving. I felt like he was speaking. I felt like he'd say no to things. I felt like he would say yes to things and direct me. I also, I remember meeting somebody and he was really full of the Lord Hol. Holy Spirit. And he said, I want to talk to you about something, but I want you to pray because the Lord's going to tell you what he wants to speak about first. And I was like, whoa. Like, that's radical. So I'm like, all right, I'll pray. And he did, like, he actually like spoke to me about what the guy was gonna. Wanted to talk to me about. And it was just like this radical thing of he really is personal and he really wants to be in my life and, and lead it. [00:03:52] Speaker A: So. Yeah, that's really cool. [00:03:55] Speaker C: That was awesome. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Super clear examples or not, but there's lots. [00:03:59] Speaker A: No, that's good. I know it's. There's. That could be a two hour answer, you know, or that could be a one minute answer. Like, I thought that was a good. That. Yeah, that's great. Very cool. [00:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, mine was. I was living in south beach and I didn't grow up in church and I was pursuing all the things that the world promotes and values in terms of like girls and fame and party and all that kind of stuff. And. And I achieved a pretty high level of that in my own eyes. And I was more miserable than it had ever been in my Life. And I just saw the end of the road. I saw people that I was hanging around with that had more of the same stuff that I had. And it was the exact same stuff, but they had more of it, and they were more miserable than me. And I was like, what are the heights of misery that I can attain to if I keep going down this path? You know, I just saw the end of the road and I felt trapped. I was desperate. I was like, there has to be more to life than this. And I just cried out to God one night, and it's like one. I prayed one of those prayers. If you're real, show me. I don't. I don't remember exactly what I prayed, but I was desperate. It was like, yeah, it was just a desperate cry out for God. And all of a sudden, it was like a lightning bolt hits me. I feel like I got tased with electricity. Fall to the ground, unable to move for what feels like 20, 30 minutes. Feels like electrical love coursing through my body, tears going down my face when it wears off. I. I had no context for what happened, so I ran over to my friend's house and I told them I encountered eternity. You know, that was the only language I had. And. And they. They didn't believe me. They were like, well, what were you smoking? Kind of a thing. And, you know, I was like, I was sober. They didn't believe me. But the next night, I start praying again. And I'm laying in bed this time, but it feels like a hand presses on my chest. And later on you would read King David where he would say, the hand of the Lord was heavy upon me and I was feeling this. And my body goes paralyzed again. I can't move. But then this time, it was like I was. I saw a screen before my eyes. I was having this open vision, what I now know to be an open vision. And I was seeing Jesus 2000 years ago, going to the cross, and he was bloody. He was mangled, beat up, carrying the wooden beam on his back. And he was walking across. And he turns and he looks at me and his eyes light up with this white light. And he didn't say anything, but I knew with the look that he gave me that what he was doing was for me. And, man, I just. It was. Everything in my life changed. I went sober, celibate, moved from the east coast to the west coast and had this passion to tell God stories and started thinking about where's the next generation of storytellers that are stewarding the greatest stories the world has ever known in a relevant way. So the next generation can look up and go, man, I want to be like that because that's the way I was, but in a negative way. For all the films and music that influenced me as a kid growing up, so. [00:06:24] Speaker A: So cool. I feel like for you to connect those dots of, like, oh, I want to, like, affect culture with, like, bringing the Lord into this. I feel like there's a lot of people in, like, me who grew up in the church who sort of feel like at least the. I don't. I don't even necessarily blame anybody for this, but maybe just what was kind of like the. The subtext was like, oh, like ministry and service. Those are. You know, ministry is essentially like what you do if you really love the Lord, and then maybe if you're successful in other things, you can help pay for ministry. You know, like, you can donate money. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:59] Speaker C: So, you know, I think that's. There's such a backwards paradigm in that, and I think that the reality. Only about 3% of believers are called to vocational ministry. But when you think about vocational ministry, what I. What I've learned over the last, I don't know, decade or so, that really flipped my paradigm was it says the fivefold ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers was to equip the saints for the work of ministry. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:23] Speaker C: So the ministry is actually out in the marketplace. That's the ministry. Right. And so we're. The people in the church are the training. Equip them on how to go win the loss, how to go impact culture, how to beautify the world, all that kind of stuff, how to get yourself right before God and all that. So they're just the training. This should be the training center to send people out for the work of ministry. [00:07:42] Speaker A: That's good. This will start with a bio explaining about who you guys are and bragging on you and the cool stuff you've done. But I wanted to sort of ask a question which is like, can you tell me a little bit about who you are, what you're doing, what you feel God has called you to. But I would actually love. Because I know. I know you guys just enough. I would love for you guys to sort of answer for each other. Your best attempt at answering for each other of, like, what you've done, what you care about, like, what has Meredith done? What does she care about? What does she feel called to? And vice versa. If you guys are down. [00:08:16] Speaker C: Yeah, totally down. I like that better. [00:08:18] Speaker B: Much easier than talking about Talking about yourself. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. [00:08:22] Speaker C: Thanks for that. Yeah, I'll begin with that. So my wife is one of the purest hearted worship people I've ever met. She has such a purity before the Lord. She always leans into God. No matter what she's going through or struggling, it's always go God first. She's an incredible songwriter, worship leader in her own right. If you've ever listened to upper room music, you've been blessed by Meredith Malden. She pioneered that, built that, got those people writing songs and taught them how to worship and minister to the Lord. She is an incredible mother. She's also a voice actor. Been doing voices for anime cartoons for over 20 years. Yep. So if you've ever seen Dragon Ball Z, you've heard my wife in some way. Let's see what else. [00:09:09] Speaker A: And if you ever listen to upper room worship while watching Dragon Ball Z, you heard her? Yes, same time. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah, two different ways. [00:09:17] Speaker C: We've also. Yeah, so she's got a ton of music out there to listen to. We've also co authored a book called it's all about Worship. We're passionate about worship and, and following. Oh yeah, Song Lab. She also has a started a company called Song Lab where she helps churches and worship leaders create their own music. Really understand the why behind the what and get teach them how to minister to the Lord through their songs and connect to God to their song. [00:09:38] Speaker A: That's good. Awesome. I love it. [00:09:40] Speaker B: My husband, he is amazing. So amazing. No, he, he's. He walks in such integrity. He walks and loves to follow the Lord. I would say he his greatest prize and is to walk the adventure that God calls him to and to go wherever he goes and live that life of like wherever he says to go. Even if it's crazy, he wants to go. So he'll follow God wherever. He also has passion to tell. What I like to say is God stories and those look like, I mean if it's the word, if he sees God's stories and everything he sees in a way that's like extremely, I'd say prophetic. He sees things that like he would watch movies and come out with these like this is how I see it how God sees it. Or not how God sees it, but like how I could pull a storyline and I mean he just sees things in such an incredibly prophetic way. So all of the movies, the stories, the things that he sees and creates and loves to create has to be beautiful but has to have multi layers of meanings. He loves all the depth and insight. He Loves to study. He. He has so much knowledge on so many different things, which I'm like, I always know a little bits and pieces and then be like, so there's this really cool thing. Michael, take it away. He actually has all the details, and then he has a very. He just has an eye for making things beautiful. [00:11:07] Speaker C: And. [00:11:07] Speaker B: And I just think that that is something that God has made so many beautiful things. And he loves when his children are like him and create. So did I miss something? He also wrote a book. He's passionate about worship. He's an incredible speaker. He's got a lot of good stuff going. He started out as a model. He doesn't like me to tell that part. He's like, no. They used to make fun of the upper room before he'd speak. Like, Michael Miller would introduce him as, like, an underwear model. And he'd be like, stop. Ruin it all. [00:11:33] Speaker A: You're like, I gotta take, like, 10 minutes just to get. Get the room back after that. [00:11:37] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. Thank you. [00:11:40] Speaker B: The underwear model. I'm about to preach to you. [00:11:43] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's great. That's very cool. And what is. What is Malden Media? Can you tell me, like, what is that molded media? [00:11:52] Speaker C: I started when I felt called to step out of the upper room. I was on staff at the Upper room for about seven years. We built and pioneered the worship and prayer room and then was executive pastor for a while, but then felt called to transform culture through art and media and tell God stories. Stories. And so I just started a media company with that intent, wanting to beautify the earth with God's stories, and started a phone company with some friends in Georgia. And then 2020 happened, and all our investor money got dried up and. And then ended up doing a documentary about the 2020 season in the middle of 2020. And so that was kind of the. Kind of the inauguration of content creation from Malden Media. [00:12:31] Speaker A: That's cool. And that if people want to see, go look into that. That's called Super Spreader. Is that right? [00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah, Super Spreader. Yeah. The rise of Let Us Worship. It's on Amazon. Yeah. It's pretty provocative piece. It will retraumatize you of everything that you went through in 2020. Literally, if you watch it, you're like, yeah, but then you'll see a through line of what God was doing in the midst of such a crazy season that will give you such faith to go through your own trials and tribulations and to know that, like, if you can lean into God in The midst of such fear, what he can do, that's significant, you know, it's pretty powerful. [00:13:02] Speaker A: It's awesome. It's cool. [00:13:03] Speaker C: There were people. It was cool because people were getting saved in movie theaters. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:06] Speaker C: Like, there are people that would stand up after the movie and just do alder calls in theaters, and people would come to the front and get saved. It was really cool. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so cool. I love that. I know that's always kind of the. There's the whole question of, like, we're talking about, oh is just vocational ministry is the thing that counts. The rest is kind of support that. And the idea of people just getting saved in movie theaters is like, such a great. Stands on the face of that in such a beautiful way. Yeah, totally. So cool. It was cool for me to hear Meredith say, you'll, like, walk out of a film and see these layers of it. That it's like these parallels of the Lord. I relate to that so deeply. Like, even when I walked out of Dune 1, I was so fired up because he's, like, hearing these voices and these images from something bigger, and then he's like. There's also this element of, like, learning to use his. Like, I don't know if you guys have seen Dune 1, but learning to use his. His voice, like, in a way that is empowered by essentially, like. To me, the metaphor is for the Lord. You know, it's like there's a way you speak in which there is, like, pretty much instant power, you know, and it was just like, you know, it was like, fired up and praying, and that's cool, you know? [00:14:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:15] Speaker A: But I feel like I'm especially inclined to find those themes in films. So I'm curious, is there a film or something like that that you're like, oh, maybe it was. To some, it's secular, but for you it wasn't. [00:14:29] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a bunch. The one that comes to mind right off the bat is Back to the Future. And I say, that's the greatest Christian film of all time. Or one of. [00:14:37] Speaker A: I love it. [00:14:37] Speaker C: And what's interesting is most people think that, you know, the main character is Michael J. Fox, but when you look at the film, the main character is actually McFly, his father. How you kind of. You see McFly really is battling with two voices in his ears. He's got the voice of Biff that's beating him up constantly, beating him down. We have McFly, McFly, McFly. And then you have the voice of Marty, who comes from this other side, trying to Encourage him and speak into his identity and who he is. What's interesting is when Marty first goes in back in time, he shows up into a diner. First thing he sees on the wall is this sign that says high praises, which is kind of weird. And then the guy behind the bar goes, hey, what's up with a life preserver? And so what's a life preserver? What does it do? [00:15:20] Speaker A: Preserves life. Saves you. It saves you. [00:15:22] Speaker C: Preserves life, Right? And so this whole thing, he's the voice of the savior, and you see it throughout the film, and even the song is like, you know, the power of love, right? And so there's the flex capacitor inside the. Inside the vehicle. If. If it hits 88 miles an hour, the flex capacitor can take you back into the future or whatever. Well, the flex capacitor is really a metaphor for the heart. And to channel power from on high into the flex capacitor will help you. Launch you into your future so it's not cut off. And. And at the end of the film, he's got. He's got to go save. He's got to get McFly to save Lorraine. And Lorraine's in a vehicle with Biff on top of her, right? Well, if you look, where's the voice of the saviors? In another vehicle. They're both in these cars. And when McFly has the courage to knock out Biff, Right. When he has the courage to knock out Biff, you see Marty gets unlocked out of that other vehicle and runs onto the scene, right? When he runs on the scene, he has the courage to pop him out. So it's. It's symbolic of him channeling power from on high into the flux capacitor that knocks him into the future or that helps save him for his future. And then the last little bit was when the car goes into the future, he crashes into a marquee. And the marquee that he crashes into, it says, jesus saves salvation is from God. [00:16:28] Speaker A: He got literal there at the end. [00:16:29] Speaker C: Literal at the end, yes. Yeah. So. [00:16:31] Speaker B: But nobody ever sees it. [00:16:32] Speaker C: The amount of layers that are baked into it. Somebody really baked it into the film. There's multiple. There's more things than that I can go into, but that one. That one really speaks to me and gets me excited because that. The need to hear his voice versus the voice of the enemy. If you listen to the voice of the enemy, your future's cut off. You're in fear, right? And the voice of faith takes courage, and it leads you into your future. [00:16:52] Speaker A: So I love it. [00:16:53] Speaker C: I could go on for a long time. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Oh, you're so good. You and I are gonna get along great. Yeah, I'm very similar. My wife's always like, huh? I didn't. Okay. [00:17:02] Speaker B: I didn't get that at all. [00:17:03] Speaker C: Yeah, that's her. [00:17:04] Speaker B: He did that the first, like, time we actually met. Like, when we were first dating, he was like, I saw this movie, Bourne Identity. Oh, my gosh. It was like. He gave me this, like, whole, like, theme of what it was. And I went to the movie, and I was like, I didn't get. I would have never got any of that. [00:17:17] Speaker A: You're like, this is a spy with amnesia. [00:17:19] Speaker B: But. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Okay. No, I totally. [00:17:21] Speaker C: It's an identity movie. He's trying to figure out who he is. [00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, like in Lion King, until he looks into the reflection of the water and sees the king and says, remember who you are. You are my king and the rightful king to the throne. It's like, oh, yeah. The second time that movie came out live action, I was like. It was, you know, almost getting saved all over again in that moment. [00:17:42] Speaker C: My youngest son pointed that out. You know, he's like, dad. You know, and it was just. I was like, oh, my gosh. Look at that. Remember who you are. We did a video on that one. [00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker A: So good. You did. That's great. Love that I wanted to jump into. I feel like you're in a unique position with worship, and I feel like on this journey for me, where God's been calling me to. To kind of co create with him or to work with him, I feel like I keep finding so many parallels anytime I hear, not just worship leaders, but I guess I would say worship pastors, people who will teach on this, who deeply love the Lord. I keep thinking, like, this is the workshop we need in my mind for filmmakers. I feel like there's so much crossover and really just artists in general. And I just feel like maybe worship leaders have been keeping their heart aligned and looking for the Lord in this from a while, you know, like, from the beginning. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker A: And so, Meredith, I was just, you know, even thinking with. With Song Lab that you guys do, and working with artists and working with worship, are there common obstacles you see with someone who feels called to create or. Yeah. Wants to, you know, someone who I guess would be in the artist category, but also. Yeah, I don't want to leave the witness. But are there common obstacles you see for people who want to write songs unto the Lord and want to create unto the Lord? [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think honestly, a lot of it's cultural. Like, I think people get very discouraged because, you know, there's the whole industry thing. There's this wrestle between, you know, industry and business and purity and, like, why am I doing what I'm doing? And, you know, there's the. You have to make something if it's gonna. Of yourself, if it's gonna count or if you're actually successful, quote, unquote. And I think, you know, like, really just cutting through all the. The. The. Those kind of lies and those things. Like, one of my favorite sayings that I say all the time is just like, if nobody ever on earth ever heard your song, but heaven loved the sound, would you write it anyway? Like, if he really, truly. If it's really to him, there's one that needs to be pleased. And what's he pleased with is you and the authentic expression of who you are. That's what he wants. He wants your authentic expression. To him, it's your story, it's your testimony. Nobody has your testimony, just you. You know, like, he's done his. Everybody else has their own exact story. He's so. God is so detailed and how he meets you, knows you and how he's met with you in the past, like, that's what he wants heard back. Like, he's not looking for certain words that you have to say or certain things. It's like he's really wanting to access your heart. So the goal is heart. Like, you know, And I think with art in general, we're always like, what's popular? How do I form and can fit into that versus, like, what's truly your story and what's truly your heart? Because that's what he's wanting and that's actually original to you. So I think getting back into the heart of, like, who you are, what you're designed to create, and to stop comparing, I mean, we can glean, you know, like, there's things we learn from each other and there's things that we can, you know, do and collaborate, and it's amazing. But in the end, it's like we stand before one, an audience of one, you know, and if he's pleased, then you're successful, you know, and we forget that a lot of times because we feel like it has to be numbers or it has to be this in order for it to be that. That's one of the things that I really. I feel like within, generally in art, if we can get out of the idea of it has to look a certain way or this is what's selling or this is whatever else. Then we can get to the true thing of creativity that he's placed in us. [00:21:22] Speaker A: That's good. So good. [00:21:23] Speaker C: Which is really hard if you want to make money in your heart. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard. [00:21:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker B: But then there's always that person that just is that and they break through and then everybody's like, ah, now we gotta be like that, you know, like, no, you gotta, you've gotta be you. [00:21:36] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah, I know. I was even things, like, looking at, like, from pretty much any giant. Not that the goal is just to be famous and successful, but like, from Pixar to computers, everything, it was like there was always somebody who was doing it, some version of. Because they loved it, but they felt called to do it. There was zero demand for it. And eventually the demand's there and that's when they've already been working on it for years because they enjoy it. And then it shows up. And so I feel like there's spiritual parallels with that too, in creating art, which is like, to me, it's sort of this, like, faithfulness to God's call, abandon of outcome kind of approach. [00:22:14] Speaker C: Yeah, totally, Absolutely love that. [00:22:16] Speaker B: It's not easy because that's not what the, you know, world. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:20] Speaker B: Says to do. But I, I, I really kind of was meditating on that phrase of like, if you do, you know, he was talking to the Pharisees who were standing on the corner, you know, praying in front of everybody, and he's like, you received your full reward. And I, I was like, wrestling with like, lord, what if it's the songs and the things that have done really, really well that he's like, you got your full reward for that. Like, he's not mad about it. He was like, that was your, that was reward. But like, what if it's the songs that I wrote that nobody heard that I just wrote for him? Or if that I just created out of an overflow of my heart that are the ones that, like, in heaven, that's where, you know, like, I don't know. I like to think that way because sometimes it's like, what can I do in secret then that nobody knows about? That's just for him. [00:22:59] Speaker A: So good. I felt like there, I, so I was like, felt called to filmmaking at, like, age 11, 12. And I was like, I had prayed for years for the Lord to tell me, and I felt like more or less he told me and filmmaking. And I was like, all right. And so I was like, I'll take it from here, God. And then this long journey of it becoming my idol, my Isaac, you know, and it's, you know, God's faithful throughout the whole time. But eventually it just kind of, like, made it such a part of my identity, and I felt like it was just swallowing me up. And then moving to la, trying to be successful in it, and I was successful enough to pay all my bills and sit depressed alone in my apartment, but no more than that, you know, I get it. But I felt like there was this time when the Lord really had me lay it down. And so I was like, okay, this is like. And by the Honestly, I was, like, happy too by that time. It's like, this is miserable. I was also just lost in sin and trying to cope from feeling lonely and. But I felt like a part of my testimony is laying that down and being like, oh, you know, maybe my. Like a community group at my church. These, like, 10 people. What if that's what God has called me to? You know? And then as I was doing that, and that was kind of where my heart was at, I felt like there were, like, commercials coming in. I was really blessed in the commercial space to make commercials, which is awesome. Like, and I love doing that. But the calling I felt like, was originally to storytelling, but I was also, like, happy to give it up. But as years went on and getting married, I felt like the Lord brought it back to me. And I was like, are you sure? Like, I don't know how to do this without just, like, blocking out everything, including you, and just going as hard as I can. And I feel like so much has been the Lord teaching me how to do it with him and how to trust him and less of a, like, storm this castle and break everything down, but more of, like, go out and water the grass for 20 minutes and then go back to your family, you know? And so I'm curious for what you guys are talking about in the worship context of, like, learning to block out the culture and to do it unto him. A. I relate to that, but also, like, in this. In the quote, secular space. And I know that that's on a spectrum. Right. But do you feel that's true in more art forms? Do you feel that's true beyond worship? Is that true in, you know, just art in general or some art or. Yeah, we talk on that a little bit. [00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think anytime, like, there's something that becomes something that is, like, above the Lord, you know, that's what your God is, in a way. And he knows that'll eat you up. It's never a good God, you know, our creativity, our. It doesn't ever rule over us. Well, and so I always feel like as believers, there's that moment where you're gonna have to lay down the initial dream, like it has to die. Because until a seed dies, it doesn't bear fruit. And we don't ever know in the dying process if it's actually going to come back. You know, we don't know if it'll come back or not. We don't know if it'll resurrect. But I do know when the Lord resurrects something, it has actual power behind it. And now it's his wind, and now it doesn't own us. [00:26:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:13] Speaker B: And I think that's the thing is like, he doesn't want it to own us. He wants to be the one who leads us. And then, you know, then you actually, like you said, you had to lay it down, and then no longer does it own you get to do it with him. Now you have heaven with you as you do things, and you can say no to stuff. It doesn't rule you. It doesn't own you. And so I think within that process, you know, even though we feel called to it, and even though it was like a dream that God placed in our heart, it just gets out of balance. And so it has to constantly be submitted. And I think that's for any type of creativity when you're a believer in general. And I think even people who aren't believers, they realize it really isn't gonna. It doesn't fill the void. You know, it doesn't actually make you happ for a moment. Keeps you busy, keeps you striving. But it'll never be enough. No, you'll never have enough spins. You'll never have enough, you know, followers. You'll never have enough plays. You got to move on to the next thing. There's just never that satisfaction when you don't have the fulfillment of working with him. Who is he is the goal, not the. Not the other. The other just gets to be the beautiful thing. [00:27:12] Speaker C: And I think how worship plays into the context of creativity is that, you know, worship is our. Our mainline connector from heart to God. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:21] Speaker C: And he wants to co labor and co create with us. Right. And so I think getting into a place of worship and then creating, we're creating with divine inspiration as opposed to just creating out of our pain or just creating for the project itself, where there's a. There's a next level of what he wants to bring to us. If he's the author of creation, created this universe with all this, the intricacies of the animal kingdom and everything, the ideas that are. That can come forth from him are going to be way better than just from us. [00:27:48] Speaker A: You know, that's good. And that makes me think. I'm inclined to connecting dots. Sometimes they don't exist and sometimes they do, but it makes me think of. I'm curious, Michael, if you ever feel this way. But I feel like so often during worship, why I'm worshiping, there's these ideas that keep coming of, like, representing this type of, like, unconditional love, but in a story. And then I'm like, no, no, no. I need to focus on the Lord. I want to worship on the Lord, but I feel like the coffins keep coming. And then a time came when I was like, I think I need to explore what's going on here. I don't know if just shutting out these thoughts is what God's intending, you know, But I'd be curious to hear as, like, people are very involved in worship and creating and stuff. Like, what's your take on that? And no, wrong answer. [00:28:34] Speaker C: Take on what part of it? [00:28:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think that that is something that. I mean, you can't say probably whether or not it's from the Lord per se. But, like, do you think that. Oh, no, like, in worship, focus on the Lord, like, if ideas are coming, creative ideas about. To me, it's a sort of like a worship response, in a way, is what I'm wondering. Or is it. Or like, I guess I'd say, Michael, do you feel like when you're worshiping, do you feel like ideas, creative ideas that were coming in worship? [00:29:03] Speaker C: No, no, for sure, for sure. They do. But oftentimes. Yeah, oftentimes I'm worshiping and the ideas that come are, like, from something totally unrelated, what I'm really wanting to work to connect about. But yeah, I feel like you were tapping into a different plane. And I think that those ideas that I think they are from him. Oftentimes, sometimes there's distractions that come lower levels to distract us. But, Yeah, I think 100% those ideas. And it's him like, honoring you and wanting to speak to you in that way. Right. Throwing ideas your way. [00:29:31] Speaker B: I think that's partly what we wanted to create. Some at the upper room is like, you know, because it's a prayer room first, you know, and so it's like, we wanted a place where people could come in, you Know, we always said that it's like, come and minister to the Lord and then from that place where there is a divine flow, where he does start to speak, where he does clarify, you know, where you get really amazing. We wanted businessmen. We did it at noon to 2. We had a noon to 2 set. Like, let the businessman come. Let's do this, you know, because there is a divine flow. If he really did create it all, if he really is that creative, then he wants his children to be creative. And he gives us ideas and divine ideas from that. And so I think worship is just a vehicle to connect to his heart, and it creates kind of mashes heaven to earth. So why wouldn't heaven start speaking about what it looks like there? [00:30:15] Speaker C: Our idea from that was really King David. And he established, you know, 247 worship and prayer for 33 years. You know, obviously metaphoric picture of the life of Christ, who's always connected to God. But I think from that place he had revelation, he had prophecies that came about Christ being crucified. He had. He had ideas about war strategies that he would take from there and then go out, implement them into his workplace, so to speak. But his desire was to be in the presence of God. And so that was our hardest. To create a place is where you can come and connect and then take that, you know, take from his presence and then go implement that into culture and make our world look more like heaven on earth. [00:30:52] Speaker A: That's good. So good. Okay. So we established that Michael and I, during worship, will. There are times there are, like, ideas that come unrelated. Sometimes it's lower level stuff that we, like, get rid of distractions. Other time, it feels like there's a divineness to it. I'm curious. Curious, Meredith, when you are leading worship, it seems like that would be like, more activation of, like, your, I don't know, your spirit or your brain, whatever. But what is that like for you? Like, do you feel like ideas come in that space, or do you feel like it's just singled out on the Lord? I've always empathized with worship leaders, especially growing up in the church, because I felt like, especially some of the younger ones, I feel like they are required to worship or appear to be worshiping when they're leading music. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like, well, if we know that you're feeling it, we'll all feel it more, you know, And I've always felt like I've had a heart for. I feel like it can be such a Hard, hard place to be in, but. But also a beautiful one. Do you feel like, yeah, is there maybe. What advice would you give to other worship leaders that are. You know, they're like, oh, when it comes to, like, how I'm presenting myself when worshiping, and what should they do with that? [00:32:06] Speaker B: Well, I'm kind of like, antithesis of all the, like. I mean, it's like, upper room. If you'll notice, most of them turn around. They don't even face the crowd. They're just. They're like, our heart was like, get your heart connected. He wants your heart. That's what he wants. So we would start with Thanksgiving. Like, that was always our. Like, we don't necessarily start with a fast song. I think culture is like, we gotta start with a fast song to get everybody going. And that wasn't what we did. He said, enter your gates with Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is what opens your heart. So how can we get thankful? How can we actually connect our heart to Thanksgiving, to what we're saying and get our heart connected so that then it's honest and then that's where the flow comes. Then we're looking for, what are you doing, Lord? Like, who are you coming as? Like, what are you highlighting? So it's this, like. I feel like it's this study of Jesus in worship. We're beholding, we're looking for him. I'm looking for what he's saying. I'm trying to find what he's highlighting and so. [00:32:56] Speaker C: And what aspect of his character he's revealing. Like, sometimes if you start to worship, you might get the heart of the father to come in, and then he's wanting to bring in lost sons, or he might come in as a healer, and healing might want to manifest in that way. So I think for her, she's looking for the Lord and not just trying to get through songs. The songs are the vehicle to him to help reveal more of who he is and then responding to that in song. Yeah, you know, so that's very much. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Like an open posture, an open ear to the Lord looking for him. [00:33:23] Speaker B: And I think, you know, a lot of times do I get there? Not always. And there's, you know, there's services. You know, you. I play at a lot of different churches, and I lead a lot of different places, you know, and some are like, we only have this amount of time and we've got to go this many songs. And, you know, and they've got a very structured thing, so you don't feel the, like, freedom to, like, you Know, at a room, we had 45 minutes and you could just, you know, you can float in and out of wed. Or we'd go longer or a two hour prayer set. You got two hours. That's really a long time just to like sit in it, you know, so you have a lot shorter of amount of time. And so it's kind of like, oh, we could have really stayed there. I feel like there was more there and we didn't get to explore it, you know, or sometimes you're like, ah, you know, I didn't, I didn't know where to go. Like, I had the time and I, I couldn't really find. We call it the vein, like where, where he was really leading, you know. But I always end up like, was he honored? Did we lift him up? Did we look at him? Did we behold him? That's the goal, you know, Like, I can't, you know, control all of the things and I can't make it happen, you know, I can't will him to come, you know, in some way I have to just like posture myself in a place. I try to always be a little bit like vulnerable in the sense of two of like being like, if I've got it all figured out and I just do it. Somebody was asking me the other day, like, does it just get easy where you're just like, know what to do? And I'm like, no, I have to be dependent. Like, I have to take risks if I want him to, you know, to see if where he's going to come. Because he doesn't come the same way. You know, he may come one way on this song and then the next time we sing that song and it's like, you know, so I feel like it's this relational open posture where I'm looking for him, you know, So I don't know if that's a good answer. [00:34:58] Speaker A: No, it is. I heard someone say, they're like, spiritual maturity is increased dependence, you know, just like it's the irony, right? It's the opposite of the world. It's like the more dependent become, the more mature it is, you know, I. [00:35:13] Speaker B: Feel like the more I learn about the Lord, the more I realize I don't know. And the more that I'm like, think I like, you know, I've grown in all this. I feel like I actually need him more and really don't know how to do it. It has to be him same. [00:35:27] Speaker C: It makes me think like, it's good to have the Declaration of Independence, to be independent from government. But then we need a declaration of dependence in the church, you know, to be dependent upon God. [00:35:39] Speaker A: So true. Literally, just yesterday, I was, like, praying, and someone was talking with me, and they were like, oh, yeah, the scripture says, well, if you. You have not, because you ask not. And then that was brought up again. And then my devotional I read was about that. And then I, like, went to the verse of the day and read the chapter, and it was the same thing. I'm like, okay, all right. And I was like, Lord. I was like, lord, I have, like, a. I have it pretty good. I was like, I have. My bills are covered. I'm so blessed with my family. Feel like you're working the ministry? Like, I feel like I have what I need. Like, my bases are covered. I have what I need. And I feel like he was like, is that all you want? Just what you need? And I was like, ooh, I never thought about it that way. I was like, to me, it was like, oh, it's from a place of gratitude. But as I look closer, I'm like, oh, maybe it's also a place of being, like, I don't want to ask for something I think you won't give me, you know, and realizing, you know, so all that to say of just, like, the more I lean into the Lord, the more I feel like every day he has something he's showing me, you know, something new. [00:36:38] Speaker B: 100%. It was so funny. I learned that just recently with my kids. My oldest daughter, she never minds asking. She doesn't. She'll ask. She'll ask grandparents. She'll ask Michael. She'll ask it. She gets the most stuff, like, she does because she asks. My middle son is like, I don't want to bother anybody with that. Like, meh, it's okay. So he doesn't ask. And, like, it's not because he's loved any less. He's not. Like, they would gladly give him just as much, but he doesn't ask. And I was like, that's me. A lot of times it's like, I just won't ask because I don't want to bother, like, God with that. Like, that'd be bothering. And that's not God's heart, and it's not my heart for my daughter, either. I'm like, I love to be able to give when I can, you know, especially when she appreciates it, and she does. So anyways, it was very convicting for me. I'm like, oh, I'm not asking. [00:37:28] Speaker A: So true. Kids will often ask, even if they can do it themselves, they'll ask, oh, gosh, yes. And I'm like, well, there's a child like thing to take into consideration, even if I think I can do it myself. [00:37:38] Speaker B: That's very true. They do. [00:37:42] Speaker A: I was driving down to Orange County a few weeks ago, and I was having a little worship time, and your song, you Remain came on. And I was just driving and worshiping, and I felt like this deep sense of gratitude in my heart and what a privilege to lay my life down. And I just felt this. Yeah, just. Just end up putting on, like, loop, you know, and worshiped my way down to it. And I was thinking about how much it meant to me. But I would love. If you're down with it, I would love to hear a little bit more about the origin of that. That song. And if I could even, like, we could let the lyrics guide us a little bit so everyone's listening can go check it out. You remain. [00:38:23] Speaker B: But yeah, for sure. Do you want to start with that or you want me to kind of give you the original story? [00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll read some of it and then you can start it. So we got Colors will fade but I know you remain if the road changes course. I know you remain if the road changes course. My compass, your voice, you will not lead me somewhere you've never been. Yeah. Can you talk about that some? [00:38:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So the first verse, actually, Elissa, who is one of my worship leaders at that Broom, she came to me with it. She was in one of those kind of like crazy transitions where the Lord was asking her to move to Denver. And this is when Fight My Battles was blowing up. This is like when all of a. [00:39:03] Speaker C: Sudden she wrote that song. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Yeah, she wrote how to Fight My Battles. It was one of those things where it's like all the things that we thought, you know, okay, we saw God doing in our. All of a sudden it started to explode. And then God said, I want you to leave and go to this little Denver plant, you know, like a church. And she was like, okay. Seasons change, colors fade. But I know for sure if this is you, you know, like, if. If you're leading me, then you're not going to lead me where you've not been. So she. She brought that part of the song to me. So I really, kind of, funny enough, I walked her through the rest of the song. So we wrote all of it, and it, like, felt very divine. We both cried at the bridge. It was like one of those moments where we were like, oh. Because we were wrestling Together with her leaving and, you know, being obedient to God when it seemed hard. But funny enough where the song hadn't come out, we hadn't done anything with it. And then the Lord asked me to lay down the upper room. He said, would you put your Moses in a basket and would you be willing to, like, let it go down the river? And, you know, we think about that story and it becomes very normal. But you're like, that was her baby. Like, that was her baby and this was her. A casket, you know, pretty much that she just put into a river and said, you know. And so it was like. So that bridge that, like. And I know you're kind of started, you know, to go through it a little bit, and I skipped ahead. But, like, when I see your face, I wish I'd given more away. Like, don't let me waste a trial. Don't let me miss the chance to praise. Like, I would sing that in every single one of my prayer sets because I was like, if whatever I give to God, like, he will never, ever, ever. Like, he won't ever let make me give something away that he won't replace with more of himself. And I'll never regret the things I give to God. Never. And so it was a anthem for me in that season that I sang over and over and over and over, and I probably cried every time I sang it. But for both of us, it was a very real testimony. It was a very real story of laying something down in trust, knowing that God was pleased and that he would meet us. And I'd never regret it. Never regret the things you give to the Lord. [00:41:04] Speaker A: So beautiful. So good. I think that's the part that. That grabs me so much, is, like, not wanting to miss the chance, you know, just at every opportunity for the Lord. And I feel like it's words written by someone who knows God's goodness and knows the pain of sacrifice. But he is always good. So good. I remember this is going to be the short version of this, but I was in love with this girl who was. We were both unhealthy and living in all sorts of sin, and it was just a mess. But I was like, oh, I'm in love with the Lord. And I felt like he was like, you need to lay it down. And I was like, a people pleaser already. And I'm like, I can't imagine breaking up. And I was like, I. And then he's like, you need to lay it down. And took forever. And finally I did. I was like, I Can't stop, like, loving this person, but I can stop myself from being in a room with him. I can just cut it off. And being so heartbroken by that and really having, like, do a hard cut. And then I remember praying. I'm like, lord, if it could just somehow be her someday. But ultimately your will be done, Lord. I choose you over a person. And I just knew it was over. I knew it was over because it was like, there's no version of this being a healthy thing. And then, you know, jump cut six, seven years in time. The Lord has done so much in my life and her life. We had cut each other off. We both intentionally decided that we're both believers, but just a mess and reconnect years later, seeking the Lord. And, you know, long story short, it's my wife now, you know, and we both just transformed entirely. It's like the Lord's like, I won't let it happen until it won't ruin you. And it will. It. It will bring honor to me. Wow. [00:43:03] Speaker B: Oh, that's. [00:43:03] Speaker A: And that was seven years. Incredible. You know, my first real love and then my final love, you know. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker C: That's cool story. [00:43:14] Speaker B: The other thing with that song that gets me is, like, this is really the only thing we get to give God. Like, praise is the only thing we'll ever be able. Especially when it's hard. Like, when we get to heaven, we'll be able to praise. We won't help. We can't help it. We won't. We'll just be responding to his presence because it's totally unveiled. But here, when we can't, it. When we're going through something, it's the only thing that we can actually give Him. And so it's like not wanting to waste the trial and instead using it as the only time we get to give Him a gift because he gave us everything and we have so little to give him. But that's something that we can give. [00:43:48] Speaker A: So good. [00:43:49] Speaker B: A sacrifice of praise. [00:43:50] Speaker C: There's something so beautiful about how he's designed us with that. Like that when times are really hard, like, the temptation is really to complain and murmur, but like, to give God praise in the midst of that and said, that's what he's enthroned upon the praises of his people. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:03] Speaker C: And so there's something so powerful about praising in hard seasons that. That he rests in. You can hear his voice in the midst of the trial. So you're not listening to the voice of the enemy and depression and doubt and despair, which is all real stuff that we battle with, but to really plug into him and sacrifice of praise, it's. It's a. It's such a powerful tool. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker A: It really is. Yeah. I feel like anyone who's willing to test it out, just start loudly praising God. You'll feel like a trial, and it's. [00:44:33] Speaker B: The best thing ever. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Make sure you can hear your voice echoing off whatever walls are in the room. [00:44:37] Speaker C: It is. [00:44:39] Speaker A: And watch what happens. You know what I mean? Sometimes it takes longer than longer, but it's real. [00:44:44] Speaker B: You know, we had. We have a funny story with that. We say this one little story, but we were in a big fight when we first got married. It was one of those things where those situations where you couldn't figure out how you were going to fix it. You know, it's like you're just in that place. And we were angry and we were frustrated, and we were sitting on the couch. Michael's like, we should go get some ice cream. [00:45:00] Speaker C: I was like, there's something to make this sit situation feel better. This tastes bad. Ice cream. I need some sweetness. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Something here. And I go, we should probably praise the Lord. And he's like, that's the last thing I want to do. Let's do it. It was, like, the most awkward. We both stood up and we're like, God, you're bigger than this. [00:45:18] Speaker C: We don't know how you're gonna do. [00:45:19] Speaker B: It, but you're gonna do it. It was like, just loud. No. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Top of our lungs. [00:45:23] Speaker C: Both of us at the same time. [00:45:24] Speaker B: And I. I don't know what happened, but, like, somewhere in the midst of that, like, both at the same time, it's like I felt like the presence of the Lord came. We both, like, stopped. We both went over to our journals. We both just, like. There was like, a peace. They came. Like, we both had some crazy revelation. We were writing down, like, just journal. Like, it was like. Even though it wasn't, like, the answer to the. Whatever we were looking for in that moment, he came and he met us, and it was like. It was like. [00:45:49] Speaker C: It was better than ice cream. [00:45:50] Speaker B: It was better than ice cream. [00:45:53] Speaker A: That's so cool. It's such a beautiful. Yeah, beautiful story of, like, what to do in those moments, too, you know? Just like. That's really cool. [00:46:01] Speaker B: I'm sure we looked like crazy people, but it was awesome. We felt like crazy people, too. [00:46:07] Speaker C: Totally. [00:46:08] Speaker B: We definitely feel spiritual at the moment. [00:46:11] Speaker A: It's right when you're starting to do it. You're like, how's this gonna go? Is this gonna just end up being like we're awkward and like spiritually and we just walk in the other rooms or is this, you know, gotta push? Yeah, totally. [00:46:21] Speaker B: But we lived in a very small apartment at the time, so there was nowhere to go. [00:46:26] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's so cool. This has been so good. I'm curious, kind of jumping into the art side of art and faith. One of the things that I encounter a lot, especially with people in the church, is I feel like there's this relationship to ambition that is like we all, I feel like a lot of us started out ambitious and then we're like, I'm trying to build my own kingdom. This is an idol. Never again, Lord. But then on the flip side of that coin, sometimes I feel like, like you'll see people that are like weary of any form of ambition and I'm just gonna wait on the Lord and I'm just going to. Yeah, he'll tell me if there's something I need to do and you know, I don't need these things. I'm, I'm, I'm the Lord's servant, you know, But I think sometimes there's something lost in it. And I'm just curious to hear like, kind of what your guys relationship to ambition is like and what you kind of learned about ambition on your walk. [00:47:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there's, there's, there's definitely that wrestle that you talk about because it's like, you know, you don't want to build your own kingdom. And so there's the thing of like retreating and just waiting on the Lord and. But I think there is times when he, as you pull back and wait on him and really seek him, he'll give you his heart and a vision, you know. And I, I know I went through a real tough season where I went, went through all these trials and tribulations and I just pulled back and I began to seek the Lord and really intensely fasting, seeking and praying with friends and, and he gave me, he gave me vision for what he was, what he had called me to. I asked him, I asked him this question. I go, Lord, what's the big thing that yout want to accomplish through my life? And I think that becomes this godly ambition that he wants to co labor and do this with us, you know, because he's designed us. He's designed. He knit you together in your mother's womb. There's purpose in there, right? And I think some of us, you know, are just wired differently than others. But I, I I. I think there is a fear of when you fully lay it down and surrender to the Lord of, of Then I guess what, what am I trying to say? [00:48:18] Speaker B: Or you take it back. [00:48:19] Speaker C: Well, well, there is a time when he gives it back to you. It's like the rod of Moses. He had to lay it down, and then once he picked it back up, it had authority. You know, he laid it down, it became a snake. And then once he picked it back up, it became a thing of authority. And so I think there's a time to pick it back up once it doesn't rule over you anymore. Right. You can use it as a tool instead of it being a ruler. And. And I think that he really does want to co labor with us and do extraordinary things. And I think it's finding the godly ambition in the midst of the other. Because I think there is a. There's things that he puts in our heart to do and like he'll give you the desires of your heart and desire. D is of and sire is the Father. And it's. How do we take that desire? Do we then co labor with the enemy and do it in our own strength and will? Or do we take that desire and take it to the Lord and walk with him through it and allow him to author and birth the process? [00:49:09] Speaker B: But I think it's like, I think with you're saying, like I see it a lot in the church. You like very perfect performance or super, super messy over spiritual. And there's this like fine balance. It's like the line in the middle where you actually. That's hard, you know, it's like, it's the, the dance between the two. It's the pit on either side, you know, there's the, you know, okay, all spirit, all truth, you know, or all this or all that. And it's all drive, all, all weight, you know, and there's. There's these pits on either side when the tension is actually in between, which is extremely hard. It's a balance. It's that balancing beam thing, you know, But I think we have to go after those things. Like, we have to be willing. I think a lot of times sometimes we'll. We're so afraid of failure. Like, we're like, oh, we go over one side. Oh no, I've messed it up and he's not gonna use me. And that's not how it works. You know, it's like we mess up and he's like, so come back over, you know, and he brings us back over. Okay, God you can, you know, have it again or. Or then we wait too long and we're like, oh, no, we missed it. You know, I failed because I missed. You know, there's just these tensions on either side. And it's like. I think that that's the hardest road to walk on. That's why it's n. It's the tightrope of the two, you know, But I think the balance in between the two, that's that holding on to the. To the both and that tension is what helps you walk on that line. [00:50:22] Speaker C: I love to look at the life of Paul because he had dreams about going to Macedonia. He had revelations to go certain places, right? But then there was this one moment where he decides he, I'm gonna go preach the gospel in Asia. And it says the Holy Spirit prevented him from going, right? And so somehow it's just trusting the Lord that, okay, I'm not hearing, but I'm gonna shoot out in this. I'm gonna go this direction and trust that he'll block your face. Just trust that he'll, like, guide and guide your steps even if you're making a mistake. And that's the beautiful. Romans 8, 28 of it all, that he'll work all things together for good. Those who love God are called according to his purposes, right? And so I think there's just a trust and a faith that I'm going to shoot out and he'll guide my steps. [00:50:59] Speaker B: I think sometimes I have more faith in what I think my ability to mess up than his power to guide me. And that is the thing that I have to trust in, that he is big enough if my heart is to want to follow him, that he's big enough to guide me, need and much bigger than me to mess up. And so that's where I have to. That's where I have to land. You know, like, I'm like. Because, yes. Do I constantly go, lord, don't let this be selfish ambition. Don't let this be for me. I'm going to move forward in this, and I want you to know my heart. I want you to test my motives. I want you to. You to purify me, because I don't even know what's in there. [00:51:32] Speaker C: And sometimes you can't discover what's there until you mess up. Like, you got to mess. You got to get out there and make that mistake and go, oh, man, that was there. I did have that in me. And God, thank you for. For exposing that. Clean that out now. Help me get back up and let's roll on. [00:51:45] Speaker A: That's good. So good. [00:51:46] Speaker B: I was always. Because I want him to lead me. Like, I always. Anybody who's like, I'm don't know, God's not showing me, then I'm like, but if you're seeking him, then he's gonna. Like, he will lead. That's his character. [00:51:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. It sounds like a. Like a thing to make sure you're doing in this process and dealing with ambition and walking the tightrope is a. You need to be seeking. Like, you're saying you need to be seeking the Lord. Like, and that's probably true in all things, right? It's like, what was Bobby saying? He's like, religion is man's way of trying to find a pattern so safe that they don't need the Lord or don't need the Holy Spirit or something. You know, I think that it is like, we do need to be coming to him and. Sounds like I'm hearing that. But also this idea of like, you also being aware that you will make mistakes and that the Lord will use it for good and you'll learn through that and stuff. [00:52:34] Speaker B: I was beating myself up for something, feeling like, ah, like somehow I messed this up. Like, you know, I signed a wrong contract and this was all my fault. Maybe I didn't hear well or I missed this or whatever else. And I was running and I was running up a hill and I felt like the Lord was like, you never learn without a struggle. Like, there's no growth without the hills. And then he was reminding me of like, you know when weightlifters lift and they go to failure? You know, they like, oh, they lift and then they can't do it. Not one of those people in the. [00:53:01] Speaker A: Gym was like, can't believe you failed, you know? [00:53:04] Speaker B: No, because they know if you go all the way to where you can't go, the next time you'll be able to get it. And so they view failure in a different way. It's that just building muscle in you. And so I was like, I don't preach, girl. [00:53:15] Speaker C: That's good. [00:53:17] Speaker B: It's building that thing in you, you know? And so I know I have because I'm really want to do it right. I want to hear the Lord every time I want to walk in wisdom. Like, I want. I don't want to make the mistake to learn the wisdom. I want him to tell me so that I don't have to walk in it. But, like, sometimes it's the going to failure that builds it. In you, you know, and so I have to just, like, look at it differently, as in weight training and as in training with the Lord for the race that we're called to run on. [00:53:41] Speaker C: I'm gonna have to take that message. [00:53:42] Speaker A: I like that. [00:53:43] Speaker B: You can do it if you want. [00:53:44] Speaker A: Grab it. Take that one. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Maybe I'll write a song about it. [00:53:49] Speaker A: That's awesome. So good, man. I feel like I could talk to you guys forever. Is there anything you guys feel like currently that God is calling you to that you are willing to share? [00:54:01] Speaker C: You know, we were in one of those places where we were following God, moving to California, and never thought we'd. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Move back to California ever. [00:54:10] Speaker C: Yeah, never thought we did. And it turned out not the way we expected. And so we're having to totally regroup and refigure out why we're here. And we're in that process. And in the journey of following God, it's not always perfect. You know, you look at the life of Paul, he was shipwrecked and, you know, beat up, bruised, but he was following God. God, you know, and so right now, we're just in that process of seeking him. There's some things that are before us we're not ready to share just yet because we're. It's like Mary, when she was pondering them in her heart, maybe had the Lord in her heart. And so we're in that place right now. So. [00:54:44] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's. It's cool because in these times, having history with God, reminding yourself of your history with him, of that he has been faithful every single time. Like, and anytime we've been in these kinds of situations before, we were like, okay, you're here. And then, okay, now we're in a transition and we don't know what's next. He's always, always faithful to speak. He's always faithful to lead. And so just reminding ourselves of that in the midst of, like, ooh, this is bigger than we thought. Like, we never thought we'd be in this place in California with your kids, the whole thing. [00:55:15] Speaker A: I know. [00:55:15] Speaker B: But this is where God gets to show up and show off, you know, because in the end, like, your strength is, you know, my strength is not there, but his is, you know, and that's where he gets to Paul's. [00:55:26] Speaker C: Paul's destiny was to speak to Caesar, and he was on his way there, and the vehicle that was taking him toward his destiny was shipwrecked, right? And then when he lands ashore, the first thing that happens is he gets snake bit and he has to shake it off and throw it in the fire. And I think the temptation for most people is to wrestle with bitterness of the shipwrecking. Like, why, God? Why is this happening? What's going on? But yet God had a plan for Paul, and he ended up up leading all these people on that island to Christ, the Chief, and everybody else, and they built another ship and they continued on. Right. And so for us, it's just shake off the. Shake off the snake bite. Don't let bitterness and resentment and all the questions come in and go, okay, God, you got a plan in the midst of the shipwreck, what's next? You know, and so we're right there. [00:56:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good. Sounds like a. Like a waiting on the Lord, but not in maybe the traditional sense of the word waiting, but a. Like a proactive faith waiting on the Lord. [00:56:24] Speaker B: In a way, that word waiting actually is a active word. Like when it says to wait on the Lord, it actually means to intertwine your heart with what he's doing. So it is definitely not a passive, I'm just gonna wait around. [00:56:36] Speaker C: You know, it's actively seeking God and his heart, why he has us here and what's his purpose is, you know, so good. [00:56:42] Speaker A: I. I knew that there's no way that the Bible just means the, like, American English word of waiting. [00:56:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Yeah. No way. [00:56:50] Speaker A: That's good. That's awesome. Awesome. Well, I've heard you guys. I know you guys have a podcast, too. Listening to some of those is so encouraging. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on, too. But can you kind of, like, if people want to find the podcast or you and Song Lab, can you kind of give me the top hits of where people can find you guys or, you know, see what you're doing? [00:57:09] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. [00:57:11] Speaker C: Yeah. From a podcast standpoint, it's Song Lab, Song Lab Podcast. And then it's on, you know, all the streaming services as well as YouTube, if you want to watch the video format. Song Lab MSC on YouTube, Song Lab Music, Instagram, Song Lab Music. [00:57:25] Speaker B: It's all of it. So website, all the things. Song Lab. So it's got all the dates that we've got for our events, plus the podcasts and the music that we've put out and all that. [00:57:33] Speaker C: And the easiest way to find all of it is to go to maldenministries.org m a u l d I n ministries.org and it's got Malden Media, Meredith's music, Song Lab Book all that. [00:57:43] Speaker A: That's cool. I. There's an episode on there you talk about sort of like sacred art versus secular art. [00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:50] Speaker A: That I would encourage everyone to go check out. It's a great one. [00:57:53] Speaker C: So thank you. [00:57:54] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:57:55] Speaker C: Thank you for listening. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you guys so much. Can I finish us off with a prayer and then let you guys get back to it? Okay. Lord, I thank you for this time. I thank you for Meredith and Michael and their children and their family and their home. Lord, I pray. I thank you that you are so clearly already at work. I pray that they would just fill their hearts with your fire, your trust. Lord, I pray that they would just this process just have eyes to see you like I know that they do, but just continue to see you even more, Father. And pray you bless and protect their family. Lord, I thank you that you're at work. And I just pray you bless their ministry and their art and their film and even just the goal of affecting culture, Lord, for you, Lord, all this, Lord, we just say yes, Lord, and amen. Ask for your blessing, Lord. And we thank you for them, Lord. They're blessing to us. Jesus name. Amen. Thank you, guys. This is so good. I'm excited, excited to share this, everyone.