Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today is a craft episode focused on story. About every 10 episodes or so, we get to change it up and we get to speak to someone who is solely an expert in their field. These episodes are like, strictly focused on craft, on helping empower artists to create honest and beautiful work. And I couldn't be more grateful to have Pilar Alessandra on today. So Pilar is the author of Coffee Break Screenwriter, host of the on the Page podcast, a great podcast on screenwriting and something I listened to years before I even moved to la. Was like, really a great learning resource, but also a screenwriting and pitch trainer for NBC TV writer programs, CBS Paramount writing programs. She's a professor in screenwriting at University of North Carolina School of the Arts. But she would even say too like her success. If you want to see her success, look at her students.
You know, they've gone on to series such as, like, House of the Dragon, the Morning Show. They sold feature films to A24, Netflix and Warner Brothers.
I took her class as well and absolutely loved it.
She has this class called Story to Script, but there are students from that who have won the Nickel Fellowship, the Austin Screenwriting Competition, you know, the jury prize at south by Southwest. So there's definitely a lot of like, you know, fruit there.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: It goes on and on.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: I really like. I've looked at so many teachers and studied, and there's really only two that I feel like I credit as being a huge help for me. And one is Corey and the other is Pilar. So her podcast alone, you should check it out. You can find her classes, even just the podcast itself on her website, on the Page tv. You can find all the links on there. Totally, totally worth it. So this episode is great for anyone who wants to write, direct or produce stories. And yeah, I just, not only is she, like, very good at what she does and one of the best, but also just a very warm and generous person, I think, like, when you're creating art, it can be a vulnerable process. And so I feel like it's the ideal type of person you want to kind of learn from in that sense. And I love taking her class and love this conversation. So let's talk screenwriting craft with Pilar Alessandro.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: So I was in your class, man, I don't even know what year it was. I was one of the in person classes and I absolutely loved it. I feel like. So I'm primarily a director, but wanted to be able to write more. And I think it was your first draft class I was in. But we do the first Five pages. And then we read them in class and stuff. And yeah, I feel like I learned so much and I feel like so much of what I was struggling with was like, people. There are certain, like writers that are like, there are no rules at all.
You can do anything. And. Which is great, but I was like, I'm like lost in too many options, you know, and so I felt like you really helped with that. What was cool is from those first five pages I wrote just from reading in your class, someone was in there in that class and they like had a sister in law at a production company or something. So they brought me in. Just based upon those first five pages. They brought me in.
[00:02:50] Speaker C: That's awesome.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Pictures did and like. Yeah, had a general from that and you know.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: So you got your, you got your big break in class in my. One of my classes.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: I mean, I got it. Yeah. Pretty. You know, it was. I, you know, I was still like in my own way when it came to writing enough that it was. They were like, great. Well, when the script's done, let us know. And then of course, I took too long, you know, but. But it was still like, you know, that affirmation was, was cool.
[00:03:12] Speaker D: So.
[00:03:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Well, should. It should have been. I mean, the fact that like your writing actually resonated with somebody so immediately in.
And being a face in a crowd, you know, that's really says a lot. That's pretty awesome.
[00:03:26] Speaker D: Well, thank you. Yeah.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: And so like that first draft class I was in resonated with me a lot.
So first question being like, what are most common mistakes you see in newer writers?
[00:03:39] Speaker C: Well, it's funny because it is the first question everybody asks me.
[00:03:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:03:44] Speaker C: And I have an answer for it. But I also think it's a mistake. Might be worrying that you're making too many mistakes. You know what I mean? Like, worrying that, like, there's that one thing that I do that's gonna turn everybody off or that one thing that I do that will make a sale. So I would sort of let. Let that go. But I would say that the, the, the answer I tend to give is the fact that people are sometimes writing other people's movies, not their own. They've grown up with certain influences, they love certain genres, and then they turn around and they write that movie very well, but it's someone else's movie. You know, it's that mob guy or that cop or, you know, it's that character we've seen a thousand times that they don't actually have a connection to. And So I think being derivative and is. Is probably the biggest mistake. You know, it's like, write your own movie you can be inspired by, but don't regurgitate what you're inspired by.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: That's good for sure. One of my early short films is. Is a very sad impersonation of Wes Anderson that's painful to watch. So that one never got public, but that's good. Well, with that, like, how do you not do that? You know what I mean? Like, how do you find out? Is it. Well, what moves me the most, that's what I should make, or is it what feels personal? Like, how do you avoid just kind of ripping off David Fincher or Wes Anderson or.
I know, I mean, directors, but I feel like there's some crossover there. But even just with other writers, you know, there is.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: Well, so with David Fincher, you might say, you know, I really love the thriller feel of everything that he does, that slow burn quality. And think about, like, okay, I'm writing something that is not in any of the renos that he's explored.
[00:05:34] Speaker E: Right.
[00:05:34] Speaker C: But you could take that slow burn quality and apply it to making dinner.
You know, we still wonder what's in that meal? Will the knife come out? Is it going to be used for the meat or the person? Right. Like, we could still have that feeling, as you are describing that moment on the page, and it would feel. It would be influenced by your love of Fincher.
[00:05:58] Speaker E: Right.
[00:05:58] Speaker C: But not be the same movie that he's done. And I guess Fincher, to me, that that was what came up. You're the director, so I don't know if I'm capturing the right qualities of.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: His work, but so you would kind of say it's like there's a thing you like about David Fincher that's being used. But, like, don't just take all of it. Like, take this little piece or try out this little piece. Kind of like the.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I see sort of spit out a lot is a lot of Godfather stuff, a lot of, you know, Scorsese with, you know, heavy on the voiceover. And let me tell you about this thing, right? Whenever there's a bad guy, it's a mobster. Like, when was the last time you hung out with a mobster? You know, the bad guys in our world, they're much more interesting than that. You know, they're much more subtle and nuanced. And they could be our boss. They could be that person who's at the government office who's not Giving us what we need. It could be an oppressive teacher. It could be an abusive relative.
[00:06:54] Speaker E: Right.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: But people. And you could. You could make that, you know, your version of a Scorsese, like, movie. Something that still brings in that danger, that intensity.
[00:07:05] Speaker E: Right.
[00:07:06] Speaker C: But when you're stealing tropes, that's when it starts to feel a little like, oh, you've watched a lot of these, haven't you? You know, you wrote it. Well, it ain't yours.
[00:07:15] Speaker D: Yeah, totally. Totally. That's good.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Okay, so another question. If someone's just jumping kind of, like, into writing, screenwriting, are there any. And they feel, like, kind of lost in it, like I did, Are there any, like, templates writers can use to write their screenplay or any recommendations kind of in that category?
[00:07:31] Speaker C: They can start with, you know, beginning, middle and end. You know, when I sit down and I work story to script with clients, I ask them to tell me, like, okay, what do you think your story is about? That's where a logline can be useful, right? As a sort of cornerstone tool.
[00:07:50] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: And that logline is just one sentence. It's about a guy who wants to do this thing. So he attempts it in this way, but these obstacles get in his way. Okay, that's your story.
Well, then I would say, okay, well, what is. What do you kind of see as the beginning, middle and end of it? So this. This fascination, or I should say this obsession people have with story structure in screenplay is really just, what's your beginning, middle and end? And that way you have a frame, you know, well, it starts this way, and then this happens, and then this problem happens. So he solves it in this way. And great, okay, that's a start. And then the. How do you get there? That's the scene work you need to do to. To really bring your story to life. So beginning, middle and end. Start there.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:08:41] Speaker D: Very good.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: I feel like I recall you talking about in that class just some, like, simple ways to break a story a little bit. Tell me that sounds familiar. I'm jumping, you know, eight years back, but.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: Oh, sure.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: One thing that I think. I think you put on my radar, which is like.
Well, in general, like, what's the worst thing that could happen to this type of person?
And how that can be a compelling conflict or that can be a place to start or, like, someone having to face their greatest fear. There's some things, kind of some themes at times can be useful. Like, you wouldn't. You were saying, like, you know, that's not by any means a Rule. But sometimes as you're trying to break a story, it can be useful.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: There's so many ways to break a story. And what you were talking about is maybe starting with the character themselves. And in that exercise, I believe we started with the character's flaw, right? Which is, you know, what makes them very human? Well, based on that really human thing that they tend to carry with them, what would be the worst or the best thing that could happen to them?
[00:09:36] Speaker E: Right?
[00:09:37] Speaker C: Dealing with superlatives. If it's a genre piece, you know, what's the most frightening, what's the most terrifying, what's the most thrilling thing that could happen?
[00:09:45] Speaker E: Right?
[00:09:46] Speaker C: And then using that human quality, now say, well, because they have this flaw, what's the first thing they would do?
[00:09:54] Speaker E: Right?
[00:09:54] Speaker C: And how could that get them in more trouble? So it's very character based.
That's. That's a way to break story. Another way that we broke story in class was maybe you didn't know who your character was, but you knew what your event was, right? You knew that there was this one scene that you have to put in, and it could be as big as a building explodes or as small as like the world's most perfect kiss, right? You know, that has to be in your story. So what leads up to it? What builds off of it, Right? And suddenly where you place that event also helps break your story because you could start your whole movie with it or you could lead up to it, and that will help you figure it out. So those are two ways to break story. Trying to think some others. We also do some from real life these days. I like to ask people about their job because I think you can find the most original stories, but from the work that only you do.
Because, you know, I'll say, like, you know, instead of that detective, for example, what do you do for a living? Oh, you know, I'm a truck driver. A truck driver instead of a detective. How cool would that be for your main character?
[00:11:10] Speaker E: Right?
[00:11:11] Speaker C: So we immediately, like, put your job in and there's a fresh take on it.
[00:11:15] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: Or sometimes we go back to best and worst superlatives.
[00:11:19] Speaker E: Right?
[00:11:20] Speaker C: Okay, well, you're trying to find a new story as a truck driver. What would be the worst thing that could happen to you on a night where you're driving? Now you have a movie.
[00:11:30] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: So, like, never be afraid to just reach into the who you are and what you do to find a really great story.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: And I think that's so good. Like, even as you're saying it like that Makes complete sense. And I feel like for anyone listening, I feel like, I mean, I only took. I've only taken that first class with you, which I would love to take more, but I feel like you Breaking story. I feel like directors especially could benefit from the stuff you're talking about because often they'll. They'll have a concept and more and more people are kind of making things in a less traditional route, so they're kind of a part of the writing process. And.
Yeah, I just feel like you're kind of the best I've seen at helping someone break story. And I also think one in your strong suits that really helped me is I think that if someone struggles with writer's block, I feel like you have some techniques that help with that a lot. I don't know if you would describe it as techniques for that, but I feel like your approach, especially with like 10 minutes at a time or Coffee Break Screenwriter, like, has been a really fruitful thing. Can you talk before I brag on it? Can you talk a little bit about some of those approaches?
[00:12:31] Speaker C: Well, you mentioned the Coffee Break screenwriter. That was written a while ago when I felt like I never had any time. I was a, you know, a working mom, I had two young kids, and I kept saying, like, just give me 10 minutes, just give me 10 minutes, you know, And I started realizing that in my classes, that was their writing time. There was a whole bunch of busy people like me. So I would say, like, all right, I'm putting the timer on. You got 10 minutes to do this one thing. And then without distractions, with only having a 10 minute time period, people got so much done. So one way to overcome writer's block is actually to say, like, give yourself a limit, you know, just. And shut everything else off, you know, and just say, okay, in these 10 minutes, I'm going to do one thing, one thing. That's it. Great. And you'll find that that might be an entire page. Wonderful. You've just moved past writer's block. You wrote something, you know, do that, you know, catch your 10 minutes here and there. You'll probably write a lot.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I can attest to that. As someone who's like, you know, for decades really tried to write. And I try to, like, there's times I would, like, book a hotel room and stay there and stay up late and working on it and, you know, do these big blitzes of writing long hours.
What's funny is what has been the most effective for me, especially as a dad and with a job is these 20 minutes. That's what I've been doing. Like, you know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. I just. I'm just like, oh, I'm just gonna write. And it's like, I could. As long as I'm just typing on the keyboard, like, even when I don't know where it's going, just keep typing. And it's funny how much that has, that I got more done with the occasional 20 minutes a day than I did with, like, blocking out weekends and weeks and, you know, escaping to do, you know, whatever now that you're a.
[00:14:14] Speaker C: Parent, that, like, when you have free time, you're so much more productive than when you weren't a parent. You know, like, you just realize, like, the value of that free time and you're not going to mess around.
[00:14:27] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally. I mean, it's funny. Me single without kids is, like, way too much overthinking, analysis, paralysis, you know, like, too existential. And then me with kids, I'm like, oh, man, I'm so much more functional as a dad than I am as a single person.
[00:14:46] Speaker C: How old is your kid?
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Nine and five.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Nine and five.
Those are great ages. My kids are also four years apart. It's a. It's a good age range. And, yeah, nine to five. Congratulations.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: Why, thank you.
[00:15:01] Speaker C: So cool.
[00:15:01] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so another block comes up a lot. It's like, I want my script to be, like, 100% original. Like, I want it to be like, no, I've seen that before. No, I've seen that before. I've seen this before. Would you. And I feel like that can almost be a stumbling block at times with writing. Can you speak to that a little bit? Like, if you had a student who was struggling with that, is there something.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: You would say if everybody demanded 100% original, there wouldn't be any Marvel movies, right? There wouldn't. Like, we're constantly taking IP intellectual property that has proven its worth and already brings with it an audience. So what have we got? We've got a lot of things that have been done right, but we are always looking for same but different. So. And that's kind of a drag for writers to hear. So what we mean by that is, what's your fresh take on something?
So as a working writer, you will be asked to rewrite or to adapt ip. So let's say they found this wonderful book, okay, and they have the rights to it, and they know what a strong writer you are. They brought you in, they're giving you an assignment to adapt this ip. Or at least they're saying, will you come back and pitch your take on it? Okay. And where do people go wrong? They just spit back what the book is.
[00:16:21] Speaker E: Right.
[00:16:21] Speaker C: Well, that's same, but they want it same, but different. So what they want is your original, fresh take on it. So if they're asking you to do yet another adaptation of Little women, what's your 2025 take on it?
Little Women through the lens of what? Through the point of view of whom? And I think that's a very long way to say, do people want everything that's just solely original? Not necessarily. They want a fresh take on the familiar. So if it's a genre, you know, a horror movie. Oh, it's a Cabin in the woods movie. Well, same.
[00:16:57] Speaker E: Right.
[00:16:58] Speaker C: But a Cabin in the woods movie where the villain is blank. Because I'm not making it up.
That link, that is your fresh take.
[00:17:08] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Speaker C: Okay. So I hope that that explains my point of view on it.
[00:17:13] Speaker D: That's so good.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's. Over time I've come to. I used to think of. Almost think of writing as, like, genre lists. I'm like, I guess they're just dramas or dramedies, but I feel like, as you seeing a genre, it can be like, a useful thing to be. Like, you almost get a. It seems like you get a shorthand with an audience. So there's some things you don't have to explain. Because I go, now we know what happens in a mystery movie. Or we know what happens. You know, it seems like it could be a gift in a way. And I feel like you've talked about.
[00:17:41] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: The unique perspective on it or, like, from this point of view or changing this up. Even now, a moment comes to mind when you're like. To make a trope scene more original, I think you're like, let's say you have a interrogation scene we've all seen, you know, and you're like, who's someone who's in the room that shouldn't be there? And all of a sudden, that's a completely different scene. But we as a viewer, we know everything that's like, oh, we understand the interrogation scene. We see the light. We see it. But then there's like, someone who, like, you know, can't get the door unlocked in the inside or whatever, you know, it's like, it just changes everything about it, you know?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Exactly. What's your fresh take in that tropey world? Yes, exactly.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: So good.
[00:18:21] Speaker D: So good.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Okay, so another question for you. What are you.
Some questions A screenwriter can ask themselves to make a better story.
[00:18:28] Speaker C: Well, like I said, I would start with, what's your day job? Or also start with what are you great at? That could be a really unique skill for your character. You could start with what's your greatest fear? And work around that. So are you talking about for developing stories or other questions to ask yourself as a screenwriter?
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for developing stories.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: Developing stories. I think you can also build off of an experience you have and then go in a fictional direction. I love going with my students and saying, you know, tell me something that happened to you, and then tell me the what if of what could have happened.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:19:04] Speaker C: You know, and everybody's got a story because there's that near miss in your life, you know, where you got away with it or you considered doing this, but you made the safer choice. But what if you didn't?
[00:19:16] Speaker E: Right.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: There's. There's a movie for you, too. And all of those things are coming from who you are, what your experience is, because that is actually what producers and managers are looking for, is they want to know what you bring to something.
Like, why should they hire you when they could hire 50 other screenwriters? Oh, because you bring that special point of view. Wonderful. So that's why I keep saying, like, start with yourself. Because that way when you say, yeah, this was inspired by real events. Oh, really?
[00:19:47] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:19:48] Speaker C: Now only you can be hired for that project.
[00:19:51] Speaker D: Yeah, that's good.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Thinking back about first drafts, which I feel like we're kind of still in that category, but kind of tips and tricks for getting your first draft done. I know we're kind of brushed on some of that already, but is there anything else that comes to mind as well?
[00:20:03] Speaker C: What I've noticed over the years is, you know, as a teacher, you're supposed to advocate, like, daily writing. You get up and you, you know, get up a little bit early and do your pace.
[00:20:13] Speaker E: Right.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Not everybody's like that.
[00:20:15] Speaker E: Right.
[00:20:15] Speaker C: It would be nice. There are daily writer people, and if you are and you do two pages a day, you will kick it out, no problem. But then there are these binge writers, and I get them. I totally get them.
[00:20:29] Speaker E: Right.
[00:20:29] Speaker C: And those binge writers do everything in a weekend, right? Like, they say they're going to do it every day, and they don't, you know, lock them in a room. Okay. So for your binge writers, what I would suggest is put deadlines on your calendar of every two weeks. So, for example, you could say that you're going to have 20 pages every two weeks, right. 20 pages are due.
[00:20:54] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: And now we've got 1 through 21 through 41 through 61 through 80. You know what I mean? It's going to build.
[00:21:00] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: And give yourself a realistic deadline. If you're a binge writer, but you're also very busy person, don't make it two weeks, make it three weeks. But that's your deadline. And whatever it takes to get you there, if that means that you put it off until two days before it's due, fine. You know, those two days, lock yourself in a room and do it and hit your deadline and you'll feel really good.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: I like it. Using those deadlines just to actually get it finished. Get things finished.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Can you tell me about the importance of a logline?
[00:21:35] Speaker C: Two different reasons to use a logline. There's the logline as a writing tool for you, the writer.
[00:21:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: And then there's the logline as a pitching tool. And people get so caught up in the pitching part of it that they, they get stressed out. This logline as a writing tool, nobody ever has to look at, but it will help you focus.
And focus is the thing that gets in everybody's way.
[00:21:58] Speaker E: Right.
[00:21:59] Speaker C: Or lack of focus, I should say.
[00:22:01] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Speaker C: It's like I said, start with, you know, it's about a person who wants. So they do, but this gets in the way, you know, that's all. Just try there.
You know, it's okay to make it really unpoetic. Okay. But it is your cornerstone, so you know what your movie is. Same thing with tv. I ask people to logline their series first because they're often log lining their pilot, but I don't know what the show is. So with a series logline, you want to start with, it's a show about these kind of people in this kind of place who want to do this kind of a thing. But these kind of obstacles get in their way. Right. There's your show and then you can go into a demonstration of that in your pilot episode.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: You've worked with so many writers and taught so many writers and people have gone on to do great things. And I'm just curious if there are any patterns you see. I'm less concerned about like the financial success, but just patterns you see in writing that you love from students. Like what?
Is there anything that sticks out? Like, oh, this is a reoccurring pattern in these, these writers?
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Yeah. First of all, they have fun doing it.
Can't, can't. They're like, I want to try this thing. I can't wait to try it.
[00:23:17] Speaker E: Yeah, right.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: They don't say, I want to try this thing. It's so stupid.
Because they're not. Why shouldn't they try it? You're a grownup. You don't have a teacher hovering over you. Even. I'm not going to hover over you. I'm not going to give you, like, a D. Yeah. Your coach, you know, so, like, try anything. So they. They are very pumped about trying things out. Okay. If it doesn't work, because at least they tried, Willing to try again. And then another sort of common thing that I see, and it extends to the guests on my podcast, too, is that they're pretty chill. Like, they roll with things. They get along in a group.
They don't always try and dominate, but they don't let themselves get bossed around either. They're just kind of chill people who are open.
[00:24:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:09] Speaker C: And that's, of course, easy for me to say. You know, I mean, I'm just watching them. It's not always easy to, like, beat down those anxieties. And they have anxieties. Just saying that, like, on a networking level, on a career level, they.
They're open and listening and easy to get along with. And then they're open in their page work, too.
[00:24:30] Speaker D: Yeah, that's good.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: It sounds like maybe I'm overthinking it, but I am some. Some level of A sense of. Of self or, like, this is what I. I'm drawn to. Or like, they don't seem ashamed for liking something or worried about it being bad. Always where it consumes them, you know?
[00:24:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:24:47] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: No, I mean, there are people who are overconfident, so I'm not asking anybody to be, like, cocky and only me. And, you know, there's just. But. But, yeah, have fun. Look forward to this. This is your art, you know, this is. This is your passion.
[00:25:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Enjoy this.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: I think there's something to that. The sense of play with it. I feel like so many of the talented people I know in all genres of anything, it seems like play, at least at some point has been a part of it where, like, they enjoy it. They're playing, you know, trying things out. They might see it as a. You know, I think it's. It's easy to put the stakes on, like, over. Raise stakes on things when the reality is, you know, we're just making stories and having fun.
[00:25:28] Speaker E: Right. Right.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: When I'm working with a writer, I would. I would say it's almost annoying when I give a note and they apologize to me.
[00:25:36] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: And I understand they're just taking it very personally and they're beating themselves up, but we're actually not getting stuff done when they do that.
[00:25:43] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: You know, I find myself going, okay, I heard you. You shouldn't be apologizing. You're also slowing down this process. Can we move on? You know?
[00:25:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Those apologies are. Cost you time and money.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly. When you could just be getting the note, absorbing it and moving. Let's move through this. Let's do this. And then you can decide even if you maybe don't want to take the note, you don't have to take them all.
[00:26:06] Speaker D: Yeah, that's good.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Can you talk about.
[00:26:08] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: The note process, I feel like, is its own monster that people can deal with or it can be your own friend, depending on it. Can you talk about taking notes and maybe even. Yeah. For someone who gives notes and taking notes, do you have any input on, like, as you go into it? Here's how to think about notes and receiving notes and like. So I think some people maybe overtake every note that any person they give it to, you know?
[00:26:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's start with when you're done. Okay. When you're finished with a script, if it meets your intentions, if it feels like the movie that you set out to write, why are you giving it to 100 people? So I think I'm going to go and negate what a lot of people tell you, which is they say give it to everybody and get. Get tons of notes. I actually don't believe in that. If you read it and it's not feeling like what you intended, if you know that you are intending something but you don't know how to get there and you've done everything you can. Yes. Give it to people for notes because they can help you get there. So just remember that, first of all, because I agree with you. When people have something in there, they love it and they're proud of it and they just give it out and then they start chasing everybody's note. Note. Who says those people are right? No, it's got to feel right to you. Now, if the note does feel right to you, wonderful. I think the best note givers are people who say, I understand what your intention is first.
I get what you're going for. And I think you're not getting it right here because I know what you're going for and you're getting in that in the way of that intention right here, you know? But they first have to express. They understand your desire for the script.
[00:27:47] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: And if they get that, listen to their notes. If they don't get what you're trying to do, ignore them.
[00:27:52] Speaker D: That's good.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Very good. One of the things I've come to do with notes, it depends on the environment, but essentially I will. If it's email, I'm pasting them, or if I'm writing them, but is. If any note that jumps out at me, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. You know, I write them down. And then as other people, you know, this is in a writer's group, but as other people give notes, I put a check mark next. Every time, essentially that note where that issue is addressed, I just kind of check market. So just to see, like, okay, other people are being bumped by this, and then. Then I kind of on my own can reassess what I want to do with that. But just kind of a. Like some notes you'll hear and, you know, it's. It's like the only one person has that to say, and the rest aren't bothered by it at all. So, you know, I'm just. Just stuff like that.
[00:28:32] Speaker C: That's so smart. That's a really smart thing to do, that. If you do happen to give it to a lot of readers, look for the common note. Absolutely. And isn't it funny too, that people will give the same note over and over again? They just do it in a different way, but they're all really pointing to the same area. Usually, yeah.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: And it's so often people give you the. Their solution. That's not what I'm looking at, but I'm like, something about this is bumping people.
[00:28:55] Speaker E: Right.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: So, like, reinvestigate this, you know?
[00:28:57] Speaker C: Yes. Yes.
[00:28:59] Speaker D: Awesome.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Okay, so another tip. Another question would be, do you have any thoughts on writing partners? Like, as far as, like, when I think about play, I feel like some. Often to do that with someone to some degree is valuable. I really like being in your class. I'm like, having not only the deadlines, but working with other people was super helpful for me. And then I was just thinking about the idea of writing with people and writing partners or environments. Do you have any input?
[00:29:24] Speaker C: Well, on a future level, it's very difficult because you really do need to share a brain.
[00:29:31] Speaker E: Right.
[00:29:32] Speaker C: You've got to have a voice where you can't tell the differences.
[00:29:36] Speaker E: Right.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: So don't go into a situation like that lightly. Okay. Because you might be the very best friends and oh, my God, he totally gets me. You know what I mean? And then you're Writing. And it's like, okay, so that's where I would say a more intense outlining of the story is necessary because it doesn't just exist in your head. Now you've shared your blueprint. Okay, you have the same blueprint. A real discussion of what are the characters like in the script. Not what were, not what was their backstory. Don't spend all this time on childhood and stuff. What are your characters like in the script? So that when you make those rules with each other, if your character deviates from that, you can go back and go, oh, yeah, but remember we discussed, we decided on this.
[00:30:21] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:30:22] Speaker C: So really having some major planning that you do with your writing partner and also getting some kind of very light legal agreement between you because I've seen some stuff happen where somebody went, well, I did all the writing.
Oh, I don't think you should have writing credit anymore. I think you should just have story credit. Like put something in writing that says that you share equal credits if it's bought this. Because when you go into meetings based on this script, after that you're married, they're not just hiring one of you, they're always hiring the two of you. They see you as one voice. And the reason I mentioned this in feature, not in tv, is with TV you're always co writing, you're writing in a writer's room. So with tv, be prepared for you're writing by committee. And if you don't, if that doesn't sound appealing to you, don't be a TV writer. Yeah, so that's how I feel about partnerships.
[00:31:20] Speaker D: Yeah, that's good.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: As someone is kind of joining, jumping in on their, their writing journey, are there any exercises that you would have them try to do?
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Yeah, they're just jumping in on their writing journey. Well, first of all, is it a feature or tv? Because sometimes people have a world and characters in their head that's probably more TV if they have a goal for a character, that's more feature. So I would definitely say sort that out and also be open to both. We are in a time right now where companies do all the things. It used to be only feature, only tv, but now they do all the things.
So sometimes be open to seeing where your project leads you and don't try and sort of fight it into just one thing.
[00:32:08] Speaker D: Good, very good.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Wanted to ask you too. Like I mentioned, there's part of our audience is like, you know, looking to make. You've seen more faith based movies come up and there's. I won't address Any of those. But is there any advice you would give or like why you feel like some of these, I might be putting words in your mouth so we can cut this out. But some, for me, some of them feel like, oh, they just continually kind of come off as cheesy or fake. And I think there's a lot of like genuine people who don't want to do that, but that is sort of what happens. Would you have an honest response to that and why they, they feel that way or what they could do to.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Not be that way?
[00:32:41] Speaker C: Well, I think, I think no matter whether it's faith based or whether you have a message that you want to come across or some kind of morality that you want to bring out, you're always in danger of being preach, of being heavy handed, of being on the nose, as we say.
[00:32:58] Speaker E: Right.
[00:32:59] Speaker C: So the really good lessons of screenwriting overall will help in terms of nuance and subtext. How are you showing it rather than just talking about it? The bad movies of any kind are stop and lecture you.
[00:33:17] Speaker E: Right.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: And if you look at your pages and you're doing that, you have to ask, what are they lecturing about and why am I not demonstrating it instead? Because when you show characters making a choice, the audience starts going through sort of a this is right, this is wrong kind of thing in their head. There's a, no, no, don't go down there and this is why, or no, no, no, talk to your friend, don't, don't hit your friend.
[00:33:42] Speaker E: Right.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: They're helping make moral choices for the character because they're involved in the activity versus being told that a choice is bad or good.
Show don't tell. And you should be.
You'll, you'll give yourself the rewrite that you need.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: That's good, Very good. Do you feel like there are any examples of this or films that do it? Well, I'm sure there's thousands. But is there any that come to mind for you that you're like, oh, this is a great example of show don't tell. That could have easily gone the other direction.
[00:34:13] Speaker C: Jeez, I know.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: There's so many options. This might be hard to answer on the spot?
[00:34:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just gonna come off of like a TV show that, you know, also feels very featuresque sometimes. And I think we, so many of us just recently watched it. So that's why I'll bring it up. So White Lotus, okay, right. Is leading us every week with, hey, look at this, look at that.
[00:34:37] Speaker E: Right?
[00:34:38] Speaker C: And it's Making the audience stressed out because they're going, no, I think that they might do this.
[00:34:44] Speaker E: Right.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: I better watch the next episode to find out.
[00:34:47] Speaker E: Right.
[00:34:47] Speaker C: Because they are giving these little hints of behavior in the beginning, and then they're making some odd choices that maybe we wouldn't make, you know, and then they're showing consequences of those choices, but they're showing and showing and showing. And sometimes it goes where we think it's going to go because we've made it up in our head based on these pieces of activity, and sometimes it doesn't. And, you know, you leave a show like that, some people leave a show hating that show because how dare they make that choice? But it got you involved because you were wrapped up in their activity. So I think that White Lotus is. Is one of those shows. Like I said, it's not for everybody, you know, but it certainly gets the audience engaged. Yeah.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: What about, like, the importance of surprise? Does a film need to surprise you to some degree or.
[00:35:39] Speaker C: Or doesn't it just surprise you?
[00:35:41] Speaker B: I mean. Yeah, my experience is essentially anytime you surprise me, I'm amazed and I love it.
And then which. Anyone who watches films a lot, you can very often predict what's going to happen. And your brain. Part of your. At least a part of your brain kind of checks out. That's my experience.
[00:35:56] Speaker C: Do you do that thing that drives your family crazy, too, where you go, oh, yeah, this is going to happen? And they're like, I hate watching TV with you. I hate watching movies with you.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: I do with my wife. Now, unfortunately, it's become a thing where I'm like, I got to explain that I know what's going to happen.
[00:36:09] Speaker E: Right.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: And they're like, that's not helping anybody right now. We all don't like it.
[00:36:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. In my. In my family, it's like, oh, sorry, didn't know that Pilar Alessandra, screenwriting professional, was watching. That's what I get a lot. Like, it's. Is. Is Pilar Alessandra, screenwriting professional, showing up? Yeah. It. Yes. For people like us.
[00:36:27] Speaker E: Right.
[00:36:28] Speaker C: Who go through a lot of material.
[00:36:30] Speaker E: Right.
[00:36:30] Speaker C: You're begging for a surprise. But I am happy to say that I'm often surprised, you know, that a writer who's leading me down a predictable path, same goes off that path. Different, you know, and led me on that predictable path specifically. So I would say, oh, I know what's going to happen. And then diverged. And I just always think, that's really great.
[00:36:56] Speaker D: That's awesome. Yeah, I know.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: I Feel like even in the small. I feel like this idea of surprise can go in even the most micro things. I'm not like, a huge Marvel movie fan, per se, but I went and saw Thunderbolts. Have you seen the ads for that? So. And I was watching Florence. I forget her.
[00:37:11] Speaker D: Pew. Yeah, Pew.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: And there's a scene when she's describing despair to somebody, and it's getting darker and darker. And then he asks a question, and she says, yep, as the response. And she said, the way she said it, like, I laughed out loud in the theater because it was like, I'm like, what a great decision. Like, character wise. Like, it's the last thing I expected. And it's like in her thick Russian accent, you know, And I was just like, it seems like any opportunity for surprise, it just, like, awakens you when you're watching, you know? And I thought it was a great example of that also.
[00:37:42] Speaker C: What a good example of, like, dramedy.
[00:37:44] Speaker E: Right.
[00:37:45] Speaker C: The idea that we've got this dramatic moment. Dramatic moment. And then this piece of comedy at the end.
[00:37:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:37:52] Speaker C: And you'll see that I think, a lot in genres that are taking comedy and drama and putting them together. They're saying, we're not going to leave on this note that is so somber that it will infect the next scene. We're gonna reset a little bit.
[00:38:08] Speaker E: Right.
[00:38:08] Speaker C: We're gonna take us to that emotional point and then, boom, we're gonna sort of give it that piece of levity that, like, makes us feel ready for the next beat. And, yeah, it's. It's a really fun rhythm to create.
[00:38:20] Speaker D: That's good.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: I heard someone talk about the idea of a. A plane to fly. It needs lift on the wings, but on the tail wing, it needs dragon. They keep it down, and it's like the right amount of lift and drag make it fly.
And it's different for everybody in films. But I feel like for me, so much is like, when you're writing, it's like we just do, like, when you come out of film school often, we're like the most depressing films you've ever seen that just get sadder and sadder and then, you know.
[00:38:44] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: And you're like, why is this not. Why do I not like this? Sure, I felt something, but I think that balance is a real, like, special act, you know?
[00:38:52] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. I'm sure it's what you try and achieve, too, as a director.
[00:38:55] Speaker E: Right.
[00:38:56] Speaker C: Like, how do you. How are you adjusting the lift and drag so that the tone is just right in what you're doing, that must be really hard.
[00:39:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: I mean, it's also really fun, so it helps. Well, awesome. I wanted to ask you, this is more broader question, but are there some films for you personally? I know you teach all sorts of things, but for you personally, in the past, like 10, 15 years that you have just really enjoyed that come to mind?
[00:39:20] Speaker C: Gosh, I'm always.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: So you don't have to be favorites.
[00:39:23] Speaker C: Just, you know, like, I always love the very last thing that I just saw or something like that. And when it comes to scripts, especially, like always, like my favorite, the Client I just had, that's my favorite script. I will say in class, there is a movie that I show pieces of. To show, to demonstrate a very organic structure. And it's a movie that I can watch over the years. Like, I don't usually watch movies more than once, but I can watch this movie again and again. It always means something different to me. And it's Paper Moon.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: I haven't seen it.
[00:39:58] Speaker D: I have to see it.
[00:39:59] Speaker C: Peter Bogdanovich was the director, and it starred Ryan O' Neill and Tatum O'. Neill. It was 1977, filmed in black and white just for the aesthetic. I have to tell people. No, really, movies weren't in black and white in 1977, you know, and it's about a con artist and his daughter that are swindling people in Depression era.
In the Depression era, Rust Belt and.
And there's this wonderful relationship. There's this terrific activity along the way. Fun and games, right? It has this. This impactful arc at the end and it surprises you. And I just love that movie. So that. That is a movie that if people haven't seen it, it's like. It is a classic film, but it's a classic film not a lot of people have seen. So awesome. My fave.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: I love it. I'll definitely check it out. Have you seen the movie? This isn't for everybody, but Warrior with Tom Hardy, about the brothers.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: No, I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: That's kind of my recommend. That's sort of my Paper Moon, if you will. Like.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: In the sense that it's like. It. The trailer was terrible. And so it just didn't do well, I think. Or I don't know, for whatever reason. But, man, everyone I show it to is, you know, absolutely loves it. It's really about kind of a story about family and restoring family, but it's sort of like using two of the toughest guys in the world. So Kind of that juxtaposition of like, if we're going to have this conversation, we need to do it with these guys in a, in a fighting ring, you know, so it does a great job.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: I love how you described it too. If we're going to have this conversation. That's such a good way of thinking about it.
[00:41:37] Speaker E: Right?
[00:41:37] Speaker C: It's like when you have really tough guy genre stuff, what's the conversation that you're really having that will ground it, Right? Yeah, that's, that's. Yeah, I'll, I'll definitely watch it. Thank you.
[00:41:49] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, is there any. Yeah. For people who want to like, take a class or want to follow you? I know, like, I've loved. Before I even moved to Los Angeles, I was listening to your podcast on the page.
[00:42:02] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: YouTube and all. Everywhere. It's on everywhere. You know, that was honestly one of my, like, probably most of my training is just listening to that podcast. Even the logline competitions, I feel like are a great. Probably the indirectly best class on long lines. Just because you just hear them and like you're like, yeah, this grabs me. Why does this grab me? And you guys break it down so well.
But yeah, anywhere people should go to like, you know, whether it's buy a book or a class or so.
[00:42:30] Speaker C: On the page is the title of the podcast. You can get it anywhere that you get podcasts. We are in our 18th year. I think we just finished 936 and I'm going to be stopping at 1000. So start catching up everybody. And then OnThePage TV is my website and my classes. I've got one live class right around the corner if I can promote it.
[00:42:52] Speaker D: Yeah, please.
[00:42:53] Speaker C: Story analysis for readers and writers. So it will talk to you about what are the notes you get at every level of this process. How do you give notes? How do you get notes? We'll look at script coverage and it really helps you be a better writer by thinking like a reader.
And it is a zoom live Zoom class from 10 to 12 Pacific time with an extra Q and A and just go to OnThePage TV and check it out.
[00:43:19] Speaker D: Awesome. Very cool.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: I was curious, is there any writers you worked with that have like threaded the needle? Well, on a story that involves faith.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: You know, it's to my clients, I often don't realize they're writing a faith based project until they've finished.
[00:43:40] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:43:40] Speaker C: And I think that's good, you know, because I'm just helping them tell their story as well as possible.
And then if there are themes that come through.
You know, they. They've. They've come through. You know, I have. I have writers of so many different faiths.
[00:44:01] Speaker D: Totally.
[00:44:02] Speaker C: I think every time that they write a good movie, they're also representing their faith well.
So I can't say that there's just this one that comes to mind.
But if they've worked with me and it's working and it ends up on a faith based platform, I'm gonna take all the credit for it. Yeah, totally.
[00:44:23] Speaker B: That's right. I love it. I think that really actually is a great answer because it's maybe as in hindsight or if they comment on it, you realize, oh, maybe that could. But it's often not this, like sermon laid out.
[00:44:36] Speaker C: Yes, yes. The intention is take this character through this journey.
[00:44:42] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: And if the faith is the thing that helps them get through that journey.
Great, great. And it works for the story.
[00:44:51] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: Totally. Awesome. Okay, last question about dealing with unseen things in script. So whether it be a parent who's not alive anymore. But it's kind of, in a way, it's an important part of the story or dealing with things that are harder to show, you know, like the, you know, the faith example would be like, you know, if people believe in some God that's invisible, you know, or if. Yeah. Is there any thoughts on, like, approaches to kind of like having something felt but not seen in a story that you would. Ultra specific, but anything that comes to mind.
[00:45:24] Speaker C: I think objects hold a lot of meaning. And sometimes the audience gets to know about a person or a belief system through a character's relationship with an object. We start to find out what meaning that object has. That object will show up in different ways. And I'm not just talking about symbolism. I'm talking about its use for things. This tire iron.
[00:45:48] Speaker E: Right?
[00:45:48] Speaker C: This is the tire iron that your dad used to show you how to change a tire, you know, but later on it's the tire iron you use to defend yourself.
[00:45:57] Speaker E: Right.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: And later on you have a kid and she comes of age and you give her all wrapped up that tire iron, you know.
[00:46:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:08] Speaker C: That is holding the meaning of the person.
[00:46:11] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: That's great. Awesome. Well, Pilar, thank you so much for. This is very generous for you to come on here. And I feel like it's such. So many nuggets of wisdom. So, you know, everybody go check out her classes and books and all the things.
[00:46:24] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. I've enjoyed myself. I appreciate it.
[00:46:27] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Yeah, please, I'm happy to jump on with you any other time if you want for for your podcast before you hit a thousand. So yeah, get in before come on.
[00:46:36] Speaker C: My onto my show for sure.
[00:46:37] Speaker D: Awesome.
