Kenneth Chang | "Christian Horror Films"

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today's guest is Kenneth Chang. He co directed with David Chanley a Christian horror short film called Refuse. It's gone on to win many awards. I've seen it. I was very scared and I cried. All within 22 minutes. And those were not fear tears. Those were emotional tears. So both. This is impressive in 22 minutes. The simplest log line for the film is a Korean man attempts to clean his filthy room, but finds something sinister lies within the trash. But Kenneth is also the CEO of the nonprofit Uncommon Voice. Its chief goal, it's to champion Christian storytellers. I just feel like they're very aligned with what I am doing at Prodigal and what I care about, which is really cool. And you can, you can check out their website, UncommonVoices Faith, it says there, where creativity meets faith. And together we discover the endless possibilities of worshiping through art. So, you know, they have many cool events in la, they have devotionals they designed that are really cool and definitely worth checking out. It's also clearly people who care about art, design and aesthetics, which, you know, don't always get in the faith spaces. So Kenneth is a talented filmmaker, a CEO, pastor, and soon to be husband. And we dive into many of those topics and more. You'll hear Caleb, my co host, mention my short film, Flesh and Blood, which is not public yet, but it is finished and it will be premiering at Screamfest in mid October. So if you want more details about screenings, even around the US and potentially more, you can join the Prodigal email list or even just follow me on Instagram @NathanPressley. So I really enjoyed this conversation. I think you will too. So let's talk art and faith with Kenneth Chang. When did God become real to you? [00:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I grew up in the Korean church my whole life. I've probably been to dozens of Korean churches in Los Angeles. Growing up, my mom just found herself in all these different ministries. And they were all pretty much the same in terms of form and function. Like, we'd listen to sermons, we'd have some kind of worship, but then twice a year, most of these churches had retreats. And those retreats would be something really special for me because I could not really remember what sermons were about. Worship was, it was fun. But every retreat, we had to do a skit. And that's when suddenly, like, everything like. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Clicked for me, really. [00:02:36] Speaker B: It was like I would get electrified, you know? Cause here's the thing, we have to act, we have to write it amongst people that aren't typically actors and writers, right? And Then someone who would be like, well, no, let's try this and, like, create and direct. Right. And so that's when I would, like, feel alive. And so looking back, I think tasting God was in the act of creation because that's when. Because we would always have to take the theme of the retreat, whether it's like, oh, we are more than conquerors, then you would have to somehow embody that within a 5, 10 minute skit. And so, yeah, receiving was good for me. Creating, however, led me to this other way of experiencing God that I think that's what I've been chasing my whole life, even in my creative career. I honestly, I think I'm trying to recreate retreat skits in my own life and do it in professional ways. [00:03:31] Speaker A: Totally. [00:03:32] Speaker C: There's an indie film in that, a group of people who travel around to retreats and put on skits. [00:03:38] Speaker B: We'll write it. And so I think creation is a. Is a way for, you know, Christians to say amen. That's. We're tapping into something there. I think more churches should allow for. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. I feel like already that's when we talk about an origin story, you know what I mean? Just to be like, oh, it was one thing to receive, but once it was in the act of creating that I really became real and came alive. That's cool. [00:04:10] Speaker C: What age ranges were these? When you sort of the height, I guess, of the retreat connection that you were making with God? [00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd like to say. I mean, I've. I've been going to retreats since elementary school, all through the high school, but I think starting like fifth grade, going into middle school, that's when I would take it seriously. That's when it's funny because our pastors would give us point systems based on, like, how early you are to, like, meals, how. How much you pay attention during service, or even, like, if you, you know, were helpful to somebody. And I would score pretty low on most of those, but, like, when it came to skits, I would kill it. Like, skits would be fire. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's your spiritual gift. Yeah, skits. Maybe there's something to that. That's cool. [00:05:05] Speaker C: On a youth troop retreat once I won an award from like a hundred churches for their art award because I made a sculpture out of dryer lint, which is what I have available. [00:05:19] Speaker A: It's a good medium. [00:05:20] Speaker B: You just, like, brought that to the retreat? You had it in your pocket? [00:05:23] Speaker C: No, I went across the street from the retreat center to a laundry and like, gathered A bunch of it. [00:05:30] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:05:31] Speaker B: I love it. [00:05:32] Speaker A: That's very cool. Okay, so you, like, with these skits, you feel like in the creating process, God sort of becomes real in a new way. Now, is that, like, the lessons sort of like the skits are themed around? Or is it something more than that? Like, when is it, like, oh, I'm going to, like, pray to this God, and I think he hears me and exists. You know, like, is there a moment where it feels like that, or is it we kind of just grow up in that aspect of it? [00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think the skits were an avenue for something that I was already doing on a daily basis to come forth. So my mind was shaped in such a way where, like, I would, like, imagine what it would be like to be with God. So it was much easier for me to be like, oh, God is here with me right now as I'm, like, cleaning trash in my room or something like that, versus, like, me, like, praying, like, saying, like, hey, dear God, like, I hope you're listening to me. Like, that was actually, like, kind of hard for me. And even now, like, I try, and maybe it's adhd and I've been diagnosed last year, but, like, imagining who this God is, how this God feels about me, and then creating scenarios in my head of me speaking with him and experiencing him in new ways. Like, for me, that's been, like, the closest I got to, I think, experiencing God, if that makes sense. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. [00:07:10] Speaker B: It's like, for me, maybe it's just the way my brain is structured, but, like, when faith becomes more about participation than consuming, like, that's when it starts, like, clicking for me. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:07:24] Speaker C: When did the particular pivot come into filmmaking? [00:07:27] Speaker B: My family moved into a Church in 1995. My dad was Liv. We were, like, living janitors. Not me and my parents were. And we lived in this pretty freaky church, but at the same time, it was, like, adventure. Like, I could literally roam around this church 247 throughout the weekdays, and I'd see, like, weird people coming in and out. We had this lady who would come in every day and she would practice piano, but she was, like, the worst piano player. And she would always play in the dark, so she would never turn on the lights so you could just hear, like. [00:08:04] Speaker A: So amazing. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Super cinematic. [00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I'm putting that in my feature and. [00:08:13] Speaker A: So good. [00:08:13] Speaker B: In sixth grade at John Burroughs Middle School, Ms. Esther Kim told us we can either do a presentation, we can create a Panorama board, or if you have a camcorder, you can make a movie. And I was like, no question about it. So I gathered, I think, five or six of my classmates, and we went to the church I was staying, and we created our first film. My first film, it was a parody of Dangerous Minds with Michelle Pfeiffer, but we called it Dangerous Math. And, yeah, acted, directed, produced, put it all together. I would kill to find that videotape. Jerry Pico, if you are watching this, you should be watching this. This is a great podcast. Please reach out to me. I would love to get my hands on this videotape, but that was my first film. [00:09:08] Speaker A: That's cool. I love it. I somewhere have a beanie baby film with a retelling of the Ugly Duckling and some Lego stop animation. So I need to find those as well. [00:09:21] Speaker C: I think my first film was. It was a high school project. We were allowed to make a movie, and it was German class, so we had to make it all in German, and we decided to do Indiana Jones meets James Bond in German. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Sounds difficult. [00:09:35] Speaker B: I love it. [00:09:37] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, it was difficult and it was horrible. But, you know, you live and you learn. Like, you have to. You just gotta get out and make some stuff, you know? My first solo short film was also horrible, but I learned. So that's where I learned to rewrite a scene the night before because a location fell through. [00:09:56] Speaker A: That's filmmaking right there, I think, on your film as well, right? A location fell through. Right, Kenneth? At one point. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been there. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker B: The location scouts were dealing with the renters who were trying to make, you know, a quick buck. And the owner came along. He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You guys aren't shooting a horror movie at my place. There's no way. Turns out this guy works for the city of Los Angeles, like, for the mayor's office, man. And I found him. I found him somehow through LinkedIn, reached out. I was like, listen, man, this movie's gonna change the world. You gotta be a part of this. And he told me, he's like, you know, I appreciate you calling me. Thank you. I really wanna consider this. He never got back to me, but still. But, you know, one of the things I think you get what you guys said, I think what we have in common is, like, the stories that we told when we were younger, they were kind of like a hodgepodge or a mix of all these different things that were planted in us. Like, my mom, like, every month or so, she would buy a VHS tape. And she would. Whether it's E.T. star wars or something. And I always found myself, like, watching those things religiously. And then when I would create, I would take different elements from all those stories and, like, create this hodgepodge of something new. It was almost like those are the seeds that allowed me to, like, create a garden later. And I have no qualms about approaching any of my current projects that way, too. Of, like, when I try to, like, force an original idea, it's, like, really, really hard for me. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Totally. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Almost impossible. But if I'm able to take the things that really moved me and then, like, look at all these different, I guess, fruits from the creative gifts that my mom gave me, I'm able to, like, formulate something new from that. And so. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah, good. Yeah, go ahead. [00:11:57] Speaker C: I was just gonna say I love watching a movie, and, like, a scene makes me think the film is going in one direction. It doesn't end up going in that direction, but then that direction becomes the seed for something of my own. You know, I'm like, oh, it would have been interesting if they would have done this, you know, totally. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Like. Or go to the library or, like, a bookstore, these book covers. And you're like, oh, judge off that book cover. This could be a really cool story about this. And then you look, oh, it has nothing to do with that. That's a good idea, you know, but to your point, Kenneth, I feel like an unlock for me was hearing a writer be like. I think I was like, analysis paralysis. Too many options, too many ideas. I want to be completely original. And I feel like hearing this writer would be like, literally, like, go rewrite your favorite script. And it will probably be so different that you could actually shoot it. Like, literally just, like, write the same words. Like, you know, not word for word, but, oh, just by memory. And not that I want to do that specifically, but I feel like that sort of opened a door to being like. Like, even just take the structure of an existing script I, like, and then start changing things, you know, and then. And. And just realizing, like, by the time I'm actually finished it with drafts and notes, it's, like, completely different, you know, And I think letting things. Inspiration play a role versus, like, I tried, like, put on blinders and not have any influences. Not have any. You know, I think that was, like, a struggle for me early on. Yeah. [00:13:23] Speaker C: Well, William Bloom, famous literary critic, he called. He has a term for it, the anxiety of influence, which is where we. The creative act for all of us begins with IMITATING the things that we love. And we don't really find what our own particular story or voice is until we've done that enough. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Good. It's good. Do you have a moment even for, like, a refuse? Like, do you have a moment that you sort of felt like. I kind of feel like God's calling me to make this? Or was it more of, like, just a. Like, oh, I know. God is a God who likes to create. I'm gonna make something, or. Yeah. Is there a moment kind of like that on either side of the coin? Yeah. [00:14:07] Speaker B: I'd like to say yes, because if it succeeds, I'd be like, okay, good. Thank you, God. Like, you made this happen. If it doesn't, I'm like, what the heck happened? Like, you're the one that put this. My heart. I have, like, this bodily visceral kind of reaction when I get, like, so excited. Like, I feel the whole part of who I am just, like, jump. I can't even, like, sit down. And when I tap into a story that makes me feel that way, like, it moves something within me that I can't even, like, quite describe. I know that there's something there. There's this book called, like, the Body Remembers. And it's this whole idea that, like, even though your mind consciously has moved on from certain, like, trauma or something from your. Your life, like, your body still remembers things and your body's triggered. And I feel like certain stories do that for me. And it's. It's my body's way of saying, like, oh, this could be a pathway towards healing wholeness, a better understanding of your family. And so I think one thing's for clear is I do think, let's say, for refuse. On the last day of filming, I kind of, like, slowed down. I took the day to ask God if there was ways I could process a lot of the pain, shame and trauma I felt from, like, you know, abuse or relationships with my parents. My dad struggled with addiction for a long time. I did in certain aspects as well. And I wanted to leave because, okay, the scene was an exorcism scene. Like, my character is possessed and the demons are supposed to leave through embrace. Like, the ladies embrace me. And I remember during downtime, I was walking on the set and I was like, lord, during this exorcism, saint, I'd like to leave whatever needs to be here to be here. I'd love to really mourn, if that's okay. And the camera just happens to be there. And the kind of, like, sense I got from God was like, yes. And to me, this is more than just a film. This is me healing, and this is me showing up and. Which, by the way, was funny because my parents were on set. We couldn't pay too many extras, so I asked them to come by and be on set. [00:16:38] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. [00:16:40] Speaker B: So that would be, I think, an example of how I've integrated those ideas. Yeah. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And just feeling like God is a. It's a spiritual process that God is a part of. And, man, to have your family there for that scene is like, talk about personal filmmaking, you know? [00:16:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, sorry. They did leave right before then. They were like, yeah, yeah, we're good. We're gonna go. But they were there that day and then after we filmed. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I feel like that could have been hard on you as an actor. That's cool. That's very cool. [00:17:13] Speaker C: Method. Very method. [00:17:17] Speaker A: Do you feel like I'd be interested to hear. I've heard this pattern, especially when people are making films that kind of show the spiritual side of stuff. But once you guys are making it, I know filmmaking is problem solving already, but did you feel like there was any, like, abnormal resistance or difficulty? Like, you know, I felt like I've heard a lot of that. Especially, like, films with spiritual themes. Did it feel like there was, like, a resistance the minute you decided, like, we're gonna make this, or was it, like, seeming standard, you know? No. Wrong answer. I'm just kind of curious. [00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, definitely. We've had crew members who were getting into accidents day of. And then at the very same time, my mom got in a car accident on, like, two separate sides of the city. Like, like an hour or so before filming, like, just a weird thing started happening where part of, like, our demon's, like, scalp that we created, it kept disappearing. Either someone was trolling us, but just kept disappearing. And we would find it in, like, the weirdest places. Like, we found it, like, in this dark corner that none of the crew said, like, they were going to. Lights would flicker in my house. That's never really happened before. My dog would, like, go into dark corners of the house and hunch over and start growling. I was trying to watch this movie called Malevolent. I think that's what it's called by James Wan, also a horror film. And I was trying to study what this film was doing. And for some reason, every movie on HBO Max is playing except for that one. And anytime I would try to play it, my dog would go off into the kitchen just Dark kitchen, just start barking out of nowhere. And you know when you get like the little goosebumps in your skin and stuff. Now, I think whether or not we were doing a horror film or a spiritual film, I think those elements exist in our world. Maybe we're just becoming more sensitive to these things. But yeah, we've had some weird things happen. So I text all my friends, like. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Pray for me right now. Truly. [00:19:33] Speaker C: It's like that attention filter where you learn a new word and then suddenly in that week, you hear 10 people say it and you've never noticed people saying it before. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:44] Speaker C: You start thinking demons and then you start noticing. It's like it was there, but now it's in your attention filter. [00:19:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I keep hearing this pattern from people on these films. It's interesting to me you mentioned the car wrecks too, because there's a film, I forget the name of it anyway, but they're like, oh, they were dealing with this very spiritual thing and it was like, oh, there were 36 car wrecks while we were filming this. And no one physically was like injured, but every, like the cars were totaled, you know, and it's just like 36. Like, even when I was shooting mine, you know, like, there wasn't a car wreck, but my car, you know, just died the day before, which it was, you know, hadn't had been fine, you know, and there was tons of other things as well. So I was kind of like. Like my logical brain wants to be like, well, you know, probably not, but I'm like, I just keep seeing this pattern. And it's like multiple other projects, like on there's a podcast where they, like, they've interviewed a lot of these filmmakers who've worked on these, like, you know, that deal with spiritual stuff and they're just like, it's just crazy. The. So it is. You're like, oh, am I just looking for it or did it happen? But I now I'm of the, you know, the camp. I'm like, ah, this. I believe it. Yeah. [00:20:56] Speaker B: That's why for my next film, we're requiring everybody to take the bus or walk to set. [00:21:02] Speaker A: Smart. Smart. [00:21:03] Speaker C: An all public transportation film. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there you go. [00:21:09] Speaker B: You know, actually, you just made me remember something. So we had a reunion after filming, we went to a pub and we all hung out. And when the crew was there, my mom got rear ended like a couple streets down, so I had to walk over to check on her. And so I don't hang out with those people anymore. Smart. God bless them. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker B: But. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, too, it's easy, like, from afar. My experience, like, to be like, oh, it's so creepy. I'm scared of that. But also, I feel like, you know, I'm sure people have lots of different beliefs on this, but I feel like it's often. These are like, if we're going to get real spiritual, it's like, there are attacks, but they don't really withstand. Like, they're usually more like, they'll make something be like, oh, this might ruin this. And then it doesn't. Like, it's more just like, more in the fear zone than it is in the actual, like, damaging zone. At least. At least from my experience. But God has all the. All the real power. That's a. That's my view of it. [00:22:06] Speaker C: But I think this is a great place for me to throw in that question. I told you there's. I want to ask both of you this, and since we're talking about spiritual realities, but we're also talking about filmmaking. Both of you made wonderful psychological, slash spiritual horror films, right? Psycho spiritual, I guess. And I'm curious why. Why was that the medium for the story that you wanted to tell? It's. [00:22:40] Speaker A: It's just. [00:22:40] Speaker C: It's very interesting that when people go to want to tell stories about spiritual themes, how often horror comes up as a genre. And I'm just sort of. I'm curious how that happened for each of you. Kenneth, first, you know. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I touched upon this earlier. I think it was a form of exorcism. Dude, I know that sounds crazy, but I think deep within the recesses of my subconscious, yes. Through therapy and prayer and so much work, I've been able to process a lot. But there's something about writing, acting, and world building based off of real traumas that I've experienced in people within the Korean community or the church. Something about, like, putting that into a medium. Every time I watch my film, I almost feel like it's like a Horcrux or something. Like, I took something that I was. I had deep within and I put it in that film, hoping that that could be a source of healing and blessing to others. I haven't thought about this clearly yet, but you guys know in the Old Testament, that story of Moses holding up the serpent. And it's like you're looking at the very image of the things that are harming you, but when you look at it, keeps you from being harmed from the actual serpents. I think it's Wes Craven that once said, horror films help us process our nightmares as a people. I butchered that quote. But it's like, I think there's something about us watching someone deal with their inner demons that somehow helps free us of ours. And so I thought the horror genre was a perfect way of trying to capture deep, terrifying, scary things that I've been through and that my family have been. Has been through, and use that as. As a way of saying, I want to be released from this. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. Very cool. It's funny for me, like, I. I wouldn't. My default wouldn't be to make anything that's scary, per se, but I feel like I have come to see, like, there are stories I want to tell, and I think that there are genres that are right for those stories. And so, like, I mentioned to some on. But there's like two. Two moments that come to mind when you are doing therapy, especially, like, EMDR therapy, and you're essentially kind of reliving these traumatic moments of your past. Your heart rate is through the roof. You're sweating, you're scared. And I came to see therapist. Like, I feel like I have. I scheduled a weekly appointment to put a shield and a sword and go into a giant, dark cave abyss and try to fight these dragons that have been haunting me my whole life, even when I didn't know it. So, like, it felt like it's like it's intentionally walking into the scary thing. And I'm like, to me, the. And so, you know, when you take. Like, if Spielberg is going to talk about being lonely and not having. Your dad is gonna use the story of an alien coming down to a little boy. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's using these genres that just help magnify. Like, you could do it straight drama, right? But I also feel like you can see some films like that, and I can find them beautiful, but I'm like, I just can't watch that again. It was great, but, like, it's all heavy. And so I feel like sometimes genre can actually be the counterbalance to something that's heavy and kind of like, let us come into it from a different angle where it's like, this is also entertainment. This is so fun. And so, yeah, I think for me, it's like the experience was scary. My body felt scared even though I was safe. And for my wife, the same thing. You know, my wife has had some crazy stuff, and a lot of this film is kind of inspired by her, but, yeah, so I feel like it felt like, it feels scary. So let's, like, heighten that through a story perspective, you know, so that. And then the spiritual side is like. Like, I almost don't even tell people some of the stuff I've experienced in the past couple years. Like, people demon possessed, like, saying, the devil's gonna come out of me and go into you, you know, and, like, threatening my kids, like, crazy, crazy stuff. And it was all fear. Like, it was all, there's no power. Like, there's nothing that they actually could do other than just try to scare, you know? But it was just like. Like, that happened to me, and that blew my mind. I was like, I've heard of stuff like that, but, like, I've never firsthand experienced it. And so it's kind of like these two things of, like, man, there's so much spiritual stuff going on. You know, people talk about generational trauma, which I buy into, and people talk about generational curses. And more than ever, I'm like. I feel like there's, like, more crossover to all of this than we're thinking, you know? So, yeah, so that was, for me, like, at the same time, I have, like, a story that's, like, more about a romantic relationship, you know, that has nothing to do with psychological duality. And I have multiple stories that matter to me. And it's just like, what's the right genre for it? You know? [00:27:44] Speaker C: Awesome. Interesting. I think about how often, as a culture, especially within the subculture of the Christian faith, is it evil or is it illness? Is it mental illness or is it evil? [00:28:01] Speaker A: That could be a book. Evil or illness. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:05] Speaker C: Or a game show. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Now we're talking. [00:28:10] Speaker C: But lately I've been thinking about it in quantum terms. Like, it's where quantum objects can be two things at the same time, you know? Or light is a particle and a wave, and they can be in two places at the same time. Sort of a superpositioning type of thing. And so I've been thinking about evil and illness in terms of superpositioning in that. Do we need to distinguish? I'm not sure. It's, you know, just like, a part of the particle and the wave are still both light. So maybe evil and illness are both expressions of something. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Both from a fallen. Either way, from a fallen, you know, world or something. But, yeah, that's interesting. Do you feel like the Holy Spirit plays a role in that writing and in the creative process? [00:29:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Someone recently reminded me that the first time in the Bible we see the Holy Spirit come upon people is the craftsmen that are chosen. In Exodus 31, I think it was Bezaleo and Oliab Oholiab. Yeah. And they're supposed to be, like, skilled craftsmen. And I used to believe it's those aha moments when you get the first idea. It just kind of downs and like, okay, the spirit is here. I'm gonna create. But a craftsman, you know, especially as someone that's been writing features right now, it has a lot more to do with revisions than aha moments. And so for me, I feel like the Holy Spirit has been showing up in my writing when I'm revising constantly. And it's something. It's like a sanctifying grind, because I think I have, like, a pride meter. It's like, you know those street fighter health meters? It's a pride bar. I'll do the first, second, third drafts. I'm like, man, I'm set. And I'll give it to somebody, or I'll send it in for, you know, notes, and they'll come back and be like, yeah, this whole middle doesn't work. Then my pride meter goes down, and then I have to work at it again, and then I. I give it to someone else, and then more notes, and then my pride meter goes down. I think in that revision process, once my pride meter runs out, the only thing left is. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Is truth. [00:30:29] Speaker B: And so for me, like, I've been. I've been really saying to myself, like, this is. Revisions are good craft for me has been the Holy Spirit just cutting down pride more and more and more so that, like, through presence, prayers, silence, paying attention, you know, that's how, like, the work begins to flow better. Because my pride's not getting in the way. And that's how the spirit has been showing up, at least in my life. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Especially because, like, after five or six drafts. [00:31:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The minute you chop away at the pride, then it's like, well, why am I doing this anymore? Like, what's the point? And then you have to answer that question. It's like, because I think that it matters. I think that God's calling me to some on some level. It's like. I do think that there's, like, if it's gonna be this painful, my pride keeps getting cut down, then why am I doing this? And I think that's a really good question. You know, I love that answer. One of our early. Go ahead. I was gonna say one of our early guests, Brian Tetzoro. Ivy. I had never heard this before. He's like, I'm a really big believer that the Holy Spirit comes in, can come into processes and systems. And he's like, every film project I have, I have like a prayer team. I have like this notes process. Like I really see it as like a process thing. And I haven't heard creatives talk about that very much of the idea. Like we kind of like formal processes and systems for me, I kind of like don't love. And yet it is very much a part of what we do, you know, And I feel like it was such a good answer. That reminds me of what you're saying is like this revision process, you know, to use the Christianese language, it's like the pruning, you know, so other things can bear fruit. Yeah, that's cool. [00:32:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I like this, I like this idea of, of humility and craft having some sort of close relationship. And you know, it makes me think, here's a half formed thought. But it makes me think about Genesis 2 where I mean, humility comes from human, which comes from humus, which comes from dirt. So the whole idea of humility is remember that you're made from dirt. And we had this Image In Genesis 2 of God creating a human from dirt. But it's like a, it's a crafting process, you know, it doesn't. Genesis 1 describes things in cosmic terms and in language. But in Genesis 2, this person being made from dirt is, is being handcrafted. God's hands are dirty. And I don't know that's a half form thought, but I see a connection there. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that when anybody's making anything, like if they're in the arena and I'm like, more power to you. I was terrified to make stuff and show it. So anytime anyone's making anything, I'm a good on you. That being said, what do you think stands in the way of some of the faith based stuff that you see? I want to say that there has been some good stuff, but there's also been a lot of stuff that for me at least kind of feels a little false. But. Yeah, what do you feel like? What's your diagnosis there? [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah, man. You know, Fuller Seminary used to have this life size statue of Jesus being like nailed to the cross, but it was on the ground and it was like tilted in such a way where like they're nailing him before they raise the cross up. And it's an open air campus so anybody can walk through. And there was a time when I was near that statue and someone was walking by and this woman looked at it. And she's like, oh, how terrible. And my first instinct was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Do you know who this is? This is Jesus Christ, man. Like, and then. But, but, but it's true, like, how terrifying that there's someone, like, being publicly executed in this really terrifying, you know, terrible way. And I think the cross tells us that God is, like, so present in tragedy. For some, I think the cross is unresolved because they're like, oh, we don't. I don't. I don't really believe in a deity of Jesus or anything. What I'm trying to say is I think a lot of faith based films, not all of them, but a lot of them, tend to have, like, this need to have tidy victories without recognizing, oh, there are parts of our reality that are really, really, really terrifying. And even our God experienced it. Like, our own God was utterly humiliated and killed. And so I think if a film can't face, like, the shadows or how terrifying things can be, I think there's a part of us that genuinely starts feeling like, oh, this is cool, but something about it doesn't feel real, I guess. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker C: Resurrection's meaningless if something's not dead first. [00:35:33] Speaker B: Yeah, there it is. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And I think maybe one of my thing I was guilty of early on in writing was first it was like, okay, like, I truly feel rescued by the Lord. I had addictions, crippling depression, and I feel like, like this is pre therapy. The Lord, like, rescued me in this amazing way, like a healing. So I'm like, all right, I'm gonna write something for you, God. And then I like, I'm like, essentially just sort of make like, you know, work backwards from God is good. And that sounds like that should go well, you know, and be worshiped. But it's like the. The script was like, bad and I didn't like it. And I remember kind of being like, lord, I don't really like this. And I felt like he was like, yeah, me neither. You know, half jokingly, like, it felt like it made me laugh, but. But then I felt like. So then I had this moment where I was like, well, like, maybe it's just about, like the truth, just double downing on truth. But then I kind of felt like I essentially made the crucifixion, metaphorically wrote the crucifixion without the resurrection. You know, just like, look how bad this is. Look how bad the church is. Look at the. And not that God might not call. God might call someone to make that, but I felt like as I Was. I was like, that's not what I feel like too. You know, I feel like this also doesn't feel true anymore. Now it feels like I'm actually kind of like, trying to appeal to people that I know also have issues with the church and have, you know, like, it almost became manipulative again, you know, so it was just interesting to be like, how did to try to be honest and also still construct something. I think what it was is I was like, oh, I'll just deconstruct something and leave it on the ground. And I feel like there's something in my heart that longs for, like, even if it's just like a glimmer of light in the darkness or a glimmer of construction of something to say, you know? [00:37:13] Speaker B: But, yeah, that's so good. I think some of the Christian films that I've watched growing up, like, they'll focus so much on the healing part and how beautiful the healing is, but when it comes to the wound, they're not honest about it, so that the healing doesn't feel as, like. As real. Because, like, the wound, like, the. How deep the wound is, is. Isn't. Is. It isn't like, I guess, thought out. Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker C: It's like if. It's like if you're. When you're young and you have a quote unquote wound, but not really, and your mom's like, I'll kiss it and make it better. The kissing is this moment of healing, but you never. There's no broken skin or blood or anything. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:56] Speaker C: You know what I mean? [00:37:57] Speaker A: Not real. If the kiss is secure, nothing's really. [00:37:59] Speaker C: Nothing's really being healed. [00:38:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. [00:38:02] Speaker B: I think that's the genius of Tree of Life. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Right? [00:38:08] Speaker B: Like, she loses her son. Right. Like, or this family loses their son. And, like, you go through this whole journey of. Of this family, like, trying to get through this pain, and as soon as they lose the sun, suddenly you're transported, like, millions of years back and you see dinosaurs and the earth forming and all these things. I remember first watching that movie in the theaters, and I was like, what the heck is this? This is before I went to seminary school. And then so I took a film and theology course, and they were asking me to see the film as a prayer of. A prayer of a mom who's lost a child. And so I decided to watch it through that lens. And so at the end of the film. Sorry, spoiler alert. Right. When there isn't really this clear answer of this is why your Son was lost or anything. But it was like the scene where she's lifted up and these angels are, like, embracing her. Dude, I've cried so hard. It was like God attempting to utilize the creation of the universe to explain why certain things, probably not even explained, but, like, give us a glimpse. Yeah, yeah, address or give us a glimpse of what reality is, but that in the midst of that, we were, like, comforted by angels and eternal beings. I don't know. That movie really transformed the way I saw sorrow. [00:39:31] Speaker C: I think that's why Job is such an enduring story. I mean, even outside of the world of faith, it's just considered great literature. Like, Carl Jung wrote a whole book on it. And I think it has that similar thing where the whole. Most of it is just a debate, like, why do bad things happen? And people positing different versions of why they think it's so. And sometimes it's not even that. It's just Job saying, man, this is awful, and I wish I was dead. And then you get to the end and God shows up and he doesn't answer any of those questions. He just shows up and says, look at all these amazing things that I made. And then leaves. And Jonah is like, oh, wow, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for what I said. And it's just like. It feels narratively unsatisfying, but emotionally it feels right. Just like that image of her being lifted up and the questions aren't answered, but there's presence, you know? [00:40:35] Speaker A: Remember a friend of mine was going through a real tragedies in her life, and she. She kept asking the Lord why? And she felt more than asking why. I want you to ask, who do you. Who can I be for you in this moment? Who do you want me to be like, to the Lord for you in this moment? Like, what can I be for you in this moment? And when you're going through pain, that can sound kind of offensive because you're like, I just didn't want to know why, but. But I do think in my experience, it's like, I don't really know that I've ever got a why, or if I did, it was satisfying. You know, I think it's like. It's more like, who can God be for me in the midst of this? That he's like, suffering with us and not just, oh, I chose to remove this person from your life because for whatever reason that makes me think of Tree of Life, it's like, wow, the answer to the pain, it wasn't like, this is why it's happened, but it was like something else. It was almost like this shift of attention not to, like, ignore something, but to see it in light of something else, you know? Yeah. [00:41:35] Speaker C: And I think you hit on it with that word, satisfying. You know, like, we think if I understood why this was happening, it wouldn't hurt. But the truth is it still would. It would still be pain. And when you ask, why is this pain happening? But God is like, why don't you just let me meet you in your pain? Because the why is not going to heal you. It's not going to help. It's still going to hurt. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:02] Speaker A: It's good. So speaking of films and moments in films, is there any other. Either films or just, like, specific scenes for you, Kenneth, that you've seen, that you're, like, grabs ahold of you and, like, I feel like even though people would say this isn't spiritual, it is to me. [00:42:18] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Shawshank Redemption. That scene where Tim. Is it Tim Robbins? Yeah, his character, he, like, locks himself into the office and he puts the. What is that called? [00:42:35] Speaker A: Vinyl. [00:42:36] Speaker B: Record player. Yeah, Record player, sorry. And he turns on this opera and he puts it on the speakers for everybody in the prison. And you have this moment where, like, all these men in these uniforms who are basically like a number, like, that's what they are, right in the system. They all stop what they're doing, like, everyone. And they just, like, look up and it said, I think Red, Morgan Freeman's character says, like, we had no idea what those women were saying when they were singing, but in that moment, like, we felt like men, and I was like, oof. It always gives me chills. And I'm actually watching this with some friends on Friday. But it was like this art that someone created in Italy or whatever that they were singing, like, it made people human again. Like, it taps. It allows people who are in prison to experience. Experience goodness and beauty. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Beauty, yeah. [00:43:26] Speaker B: And I think beauty sets captives free. I think that's the power of good art, is that we have this ability when we co create with God. Like, there are people out there who feel imprisoned by X, Y and Z, and somehow art allows them to feel human again. And I think, yeah, Shawshank. That I can watch that scene, like, every day. Honestly. [00:43:54] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Think about how it sets people free. I feel like. I feel like one of maybe one of the lies of the west is that, like, our analytical mind is the thing we can trust the most. And it's the most Objective truth. It's like, if we can consciously frontal cortex, like, we can think it through and strategize it and dissect it. We feel safe in that, I think, especially the West. But I think that. And then you experience something like beautiful music, and it bypasses that in a way. It engages that, but then it also engages something else, you know? And to me, I feel like, in a way that it's spiritual, you know, it's like it's. I think, even, like, talking back to therapy, like, I felt like one of the things I discovered in therapy was, like, I am using this part of my mind and way of thinking as the only time to try to feel safe and to distance myself from my feelings and things that happened. And whenever things get hard, I'm like, interesting that I had this reaction, or interesting that my eyes are getting watered, or isn't it funny that insert something terrible? It's like, no, it's not funny. It's sad. And it's just like, trying to use my analytical mind to not feel things. And I feel like music and beauty and artwork. The Lord can use that to kind of bypass that. Yeah. Cool. [00:45:10] Speaker C: Yeah. My therapist will say, well, that's the explanation. But now let's talk about the experience. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Caleb? Is there a scene in a movie. [00:45:21] Speaker C: That the first thing that comes to mind for me is the finale of Penny Dreadful. I think Penny Dreadful is one of the most spiritual TV shows ever made. So dark. Such dark horror. But this ending is just amazing. And there's one thing that the Josh Hartnett character says in that scene, but he says it a couple times earlier in the show as well. And he's like, no matter how far away you run from God, he's up ahead waiting for you. [00:45:59] Speaker A: And. [00:46:01] Speaker C: It'S just. [00:46:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:05] Speaker C: You know, it has its full power as the end of three seasons of television. [00:46:10] Speaker A: So. [00:46:13] Speaker C: You know, it's hard to just say, go watch this scene. But that's what comes to mind. [00:46:19] Speaker A: First, there's a scene from Fury, the film, the Shia LaBeouf Brad Pitt War film, where they are fighting this war. It's brutal. It's, like, dehumanizing at times. And they're trying to get their humanity. And then there's a scene where they are allowed to leave and run now if they want. Or, like, but there is a, you know, essentially a huge troop of Nazis coming through, and they, like, if they can hold this road, it will, like, could be the determining factor on whether or not, like, this war ends, that their tank is broken down and no longer works. Like it can't drive, and it's just sitting in the road. And so they can either run and survive, and they're trying to figure out what to do. And they're sitting in the tank and they're all beat up and bloodied, and it's broken. They've been through all these battles, and then there's one guy who's like, sort of the reverend or whatever who's, you know, struggling just as much as anybody, and he reads the verse. Essentially, he's like. The Lord's like, who should I send? Here am I. Send me. And it's. I feel like it's the. The whole film is like, the greatest embodiment of that verse of being like, lord, I'm here. Send me. Choose me. I'll do it. And so they stand, they stay, and they. They fight, you know, And I just feel like it's such a great metaphor for just choosing, like, what actually feels like to sometimes say yes to the Lord, you know, it's like there is a cost to it as well. It is great. And there's. It's a cost you want to pay, but there's a cost, you know, that's cool. That's good. I wanted to ask you, do you have any regular spiritual practices in your life? [00:47:54] Speaker B: Definitely journaling, but also reading past journal entries that I wrote, it's almost like I'm having conversations with my former self. And. And I saw this on TikTok recently. I don't know how valid this is, but they're like, Stanford did this study where they were saying, those that tend to focus more on the future and what's to come, like, deal with more anxiety. But those that think about how far along they've come find gratitude as the grounding space. And so I'll look at old entries of like, oh, I really wish I could make film. Like, how do I do this? And I'm like, oh, cool, look, I'm doing that now. But, hey, just FYI, it's, like, hard. And raising funding is really hard. And they never told you about that part. But also, like, I love being immersed in spaces, so I tend to go to, like, museums. I was just at the Bong Joon Ho exhibit in the Academy museum, and his exhibit is just literally all his storyboards that they've printed out, and they put it for you to, like, all around the walls. And they'll be playing the film so you can look at the storyboard while you're watching the film. And I think immersing myself in those spaces is like. It's like a mini retreat for me. So whenever I can have either of those, like, I do that. [00:49:21] Speaker A: It's cool. Very cool. [00:49:23] Speaker C: Speaking of conversations with your past self, one question that we often ask is, what spiritual advice would you give to your younger self? [00:49:31] Speaker B: Oh, man. Spiritual advice? [00:49:34] Speaker C: Yes, spiritual advice. [00:49:36] Speaker B: I would say, don't overestimate industry. Like, God gave you this ancient, eternal power of storytelling, and we all have it. But I was at the age of, like, what, I don't know, my 20s. I was, like, giving that over to an industry and say, please accept me and honor me as a storyteller. But I think learning that there's so many other ways to tell stories was freeing for me. So if you can't make it into a film, you can write it, you can put it into a song, you can share it with a friend. You can share it at church. It could be a sermon. I think stability was another thing. I would tell my younger self, like, it's okay to have a stable job. Stability is not compromised. It's actually could be like fertilizer for your art. Like, it could be a place where the mundane sets you up to. To. To create more freely, in my opinion. So, yeah, I think. I think I would tell him, don't chase gatekeepers. Right? Tell the story in any medium that allows for it to be told, because that could also be transformed into other mediums as well, too, because that story is what's really powerful. That's what I would tell my younger self. [00:51:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. I was telling someone, I felt like the things I can do is I can make things and connections. Not good at that, per se. I've seen. It's like, oh, I couldn't make the film yet, so I made a treatment. And with the treatment, I had a audio pitch because I have a microphone, and I can add music and things and sound effects and just keep. I feel like the process has been just keep making examples. Not only is it satisfying, but it also is helping people understand what I'm trying to do. And I feel like it just kind of worked its way out. You know, it started with, like, a log line and then a synopsis and then some visuals and then an audio. And, like, I keep showing that to people, and slowly more and more people are getting on board. I feel like that's your point. It's like there is, like, no gatekeepers that helped with anything there. It was like, just make. Like. All I know to do is make Something, you know, and try to show it, you know? [00:51:57] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, some of the best horse stories I've read is honestly on Reddit. Like, these people that sat on a story or something even that just happened to them, and they'll go and they'll. They'll share it, and, like, thousands of people are. Are reading this, and it's moving people, and it's exciting people. And I don't know. For me, my story is interesting because when I finally was able to make a film, it wasn't the film industry or even film financiers per se, but it was Christian business people that wanted to make impact in this world, and they thought film would be a great medium to do that in. And so I totally went off on another path that. That isn't traditional in that sense. And I was championed by people that never made films before. And so you just never know. Yeah. You never know how God is gonna show up. And if it's a story that I think he wants to tell, it's gonna be told like, you know that story in, like, Acts 5, I think it's Gamaliel. It's this teacher of the law who basically like, hey, you don't have to kill Peter and these apostles. If it's not from God, it's not going to happen. But if it is from God, we can't stop it. That's basically what he says, and I've kind of adopted that. I think if these are stories that the spirit is moving in, it's going to be told in a way that's going to, I think, impact the world in a way that might surprise you. [00:53:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:26] Speaker C: He was Paul's rabbi. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Oh, I had no idea. [00:53:31] Speaker C: Yeah, he's the one. Paul says he studied at the feet of Gamaliel. And is it Galatians, where he's sort of saying, if anyone can brag, I can brag. And he's like, I did this and I did this. And one of the things he says is he studied at the feet of Gamaliel. [00:53:44] Speaker A: Whoa. [00:53:46] Speaker B: See? [00:53:47] Speaker A: Cool. I would love to hear. Can you give the listeners a little more context, like, what your current day to day looks like, from filmmaking to nonprofit stuff to what keeps you busy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:59] Speaker B: I'm the executive director of Uncommon Voices Collective. We champion innovative Christian storytellers. We do that in two ways. On one end, we have community. We have weekly events with, like, mentorship and workshops where young creatives can come in, learn from others, worship together. We have something called Cinema Church. We watch films and ask How God is speaking through the film. We've had workshops like last year, a year before, we had Pete Docter from Pixar come through and we partnered with Fuller Seminary where at the Blue House or offices, some of our community members came in and got to listen to how a Pixar film is created. Every year we have a conference, it's called Uncommon Creators, where we invite people within the industry who are people of faith to talk about their process, how they think about things not only from a creative standpoint, but also through business and good business practice. [00:54:55] Speaker A: So that's what we do. [00:54:56] Speaker B: On one side we create this community, on the other side we make content. We created a short, we created a horror devotional based on the scary stories in the Bible. We partnered with professors, PhD students, pastors to go through the Bible and find really terrifying stories and help young people read that and find resilience and courage in facing some of the scariest stuff in life. And so it's beautiful too. [00:55:25] Speaker A: I have it on my right here. But it's also just like really well, it's like great, great design. [00:55:31] Speaker C: Give our listeners the name so they can find it. [00:55:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's Don't Look Away and you can find it. There it is. Don't Look Away. The Horrors of Holy Scripture. It was published by Alabaster Bible Company and they have it on their site. Praise God. Without much marketing, that book sold out earlier this year. So we had to reprint and we reprinted just in time for Halloween. So if you want wanted to lead a Halloween themed Bible study, that would be a good, a good fit. And so yeah, that's what I do mostly right now. And so we're working on our first feature as Uncommon Voices Collective right now and working towards our next conference on December 13, which I'll tell you guys more about soon as well too. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just so before I forget too, what is the website? Uncommon Voices. Like Google Uncommon Voices. [00:56:27] Speaker B: Uncommon Voices, Faith. [00:56:29] Speaker A: Faith. Cool. [00:56:30] Speaker B: That's our website. [00:56:31] Speaker A: Awesome. And so you mentioned that film that you guys are working on. Is that something that, what's your role on that film, the feature you're working on? [00:56:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a writer, director, producing up to a certain point until we can bring in someone that can produce it. It, it's been a story that we've been with the Holy Spirit, been revising and learning to put the pride aside for like to say like a year and a half or so. And so it's a super contained thriller. We're going to film the whole thing in our offices in pasadena. At least 90% of it. [00:57:08] Speaker A: Cool. Yeah. [00:57:09] Speaker B: It's about a pastor who's losing his mind. [00:57:14] Speaker A: But when he's in front of Autobiography. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Autobiography, yeah. Yeah. But when he's in front of his church members, he's so charming that everybody's convinced he has everything together. But, like, it's. It's a pastor who's. Who's slowly becoming possessed. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Cool. And genre. Is that just straight horror or how would you describe it? [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah, horror, psychological thriller. I was really inspired recently by the Lighthouse and how Eggers uses, you know, surrealist images and like that, that kind of feel. So I think we'll have elements of that where we can get really stylized to kind of try to capture what's going on in the mind of this. This man. [00:57:56] Speaker A: That's cool. And for. [00:57:57] Speaker C: For our listeners when he says we're going to shoot it all here at our offices. Their offices is the oldest house in Pasadena, and it's like three stories, Victorian, very atmospheric. Don't imagine corporate offices. [00:58:15] Speaker A: Right? [00:58:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It was built in like, 1893. You can Wikipedia. It's called the Stoutenburg House. [00:58:20] Speaker A: That's cool. Very cool. I guess that kind of partially answered the question, but is there anything that you currently feel like God may be calling you towards? And that doesn't even have to be R related. Be anything related, but it could also be art related. [00:58:35] Speaker B: My dad lived through the Korean War. He was, yes. He was born 1942, so he's experienced parts of being under Japanese imperial rule and then going into the war. Somehow those experiences have shaped not only him, but, like myself, I think there's just so much healing that I think I'm called to do before I have my own kids. I. I'm engaged and really excited about that. But something that I keep thinking about is, like, what kind of father am I going to be? And I think I have a unique opportunity to, I guess, face my own demons through art, honestly. And so I'm not trying to sensationalize darkness or anything like that, but, like, if there's ways to confess, disarm this power that's over my family generation, like, if there's a way that I can heal and turn the tides through my art. And like I said, it doesn't have to just be through film, but in various different ways. I think confession for me is going to be creation. And so you know what I did? I enrolled myself in a comedy class, a standup comedy class in Pasadena at the Ice House, and learned about the power of laughter and Storytelling in that way. And so I guess I'm like cross examining whatever darkness that my family has been fighting and not saying that art is gonna save me from it, but it's gonna help me, like, to stop lying about it, to say it's there. Like the book says, I'm not gonna look away because it's very easy to look away. And I think that's where God is calling me in right now. So I'm in therapy. I'm in a 12 step program I am creating. I'm meeting with my brothers, talking, and I'm constantly just like, looking at it, but with the Holy Spirit's power, like allowing me to look at it with courage. [01:00:37] Speaker A: That's good. Awesome, man. Great answer. Thank you for sharing that. Before we close off, I would love to say a quick prayer, but also, but I guess before I do that, are there any. Any. You know, obviously we mentioned the books that you guys have and, and even the events, but any resources or habits or anything you'd recommend? Podcasting, People feel called to create. [01:00:59] Speaker B: I mean, definitely prodigal. You guys, you guys better be listening and subscribing. And I would say if you, if you've read this in elementary school and you haven't read it for a while, I think rereading Wrinkle in Time, especially during this time in America, would be absolutely important. I love that book. I go back to that book at least once a year or once every other year. Yeah, Wrinkle in Time. [01:01:25] Speaker A: That's awesome. [01:01:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I actually, I thought of La Engle, the author of Wrinkle in Time. For those who may not know, earlier, when you were talking about the prisoners in Shawshank Redemption and how they were just numbers. Because in her book, book Walking on Water, which is about faith and art, she talks about how naming is one of the most important human activities. Like, it's the first. First thing the human does in the garden is brought all the animals to name them. And she talks about how the first thing we do when we want to dehumanize people is we take away their names, we give them numbers, and that naming is humanizing and how important that is, is spiritual activity. And I thought of that briefly of her and that. And then to hear you say that you. You read her work regularly, I was like, okay, I see the connection there. [01:02:16] Speaker B: That's so powerful. [01:02:17] Speaker A: It's cool. I'm going to have to check this book out then. I've definitely heard people talk about it, so check it out. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much. Can I say just a quick prayer for you? Lord, I thank you for Kenneth. Lord, I thank you for the way you've shown up in his life, Lord, the way that he has seen you and experienced you. I thank you for bringing creating into his life, Lord, and that being a medium where you two can connect. Lord, I just pray a blessing over him and his marriage and his engagement, Lord, I just pray that it would be you would continue to be that north star, Lord, that they could both chase after, Lord, and that would bind them together, Lord. And I just pray not just for meaning and purpose, Lord, but for joy and for laughter. Says the joy of the Lord, is our strength, Lord. So I pray that over everyone here, Lord, that we could walk in your joy, Lord, that it can empower us. Lord, I thank you for his honesty and his open eyes, Lord, to see. See truth, to see pain, to see beauty, Lord, And I just pray over him and his family, Lord, just for all of us, Lord, healing. I pray any attack of the enemy, any curse would be broken in the name of Jesus, Lord, who the son sets free is free indeed, Lord. And we just walk in that truth. And we thank you for that truth. And we choose to believe it, Lord. Just lead him and guide him, empower him, Lord. I pray you would bless what he puts his hand to, Lord, even in the revision process for him and the team, Lord, that it would like you saying it would prune ego and grow fruit, Lord. I ask the same thing for myself, same thing for Caleb, for all of us, Lord. And we need you, Lord. And we thank you that you are a provider and that you are a healer and that you are good, Lord. May we bring glory to you, Father. And may we not let the voices of the crowds determine which way we go with that, Lord. But may we be faithful to your call, Lord. And we thank you, Father, in Jesus name, amen. Amen. [01:04:08] Speaker C: Amen. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Amen. [01:04:10] Speaker B: Thank you all so much. And thank you once again for Flesh and Blood. [01:04:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [01:04:14] Speaker C: I'm just going to throw an idea out, but Refuse in Flesh and Blood would make a great doubleheader. [01:04:19] Speaker B: Let's do it. Totally. It's October. I'm down. Or we can find a space too. [01:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I would love that. Yeah. It's a good season for it. You're right. I'm totally down. [01:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Caleb needs to talk to us after, though, facilitate. [01:04:32] Speaker C: Oh, totally, totally. [01:04:33] Speaker A: I have to do it after we have our Scream Fest premiere. I think it's the 12th is what I'm hearing, so as long as it's. [01:04:40] Speaker C: After that, once it's premiered, you're good to go, dude. [01:04:42] Speaker B: Congratulations. That's really fun. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:04:46] Speaker C: So a double header, basically. I want to go to that double header, so if we can make that happen, that'd be great. [01:04:53] Speaker A: Cool. Well, yeah, let's connect outside. That'd be a lot of fun also. Just, like, getting these two groups together, like, the audiences that come together would be great, too, so that'd be really cool.