Jamie Winship | Author & Speaker

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today we're talking art and faith with Jamie Winship. He is an accomplished speaker author known for his work and identity transformation and peace building. So that's what the Internet would tell you, which is true, man. But he is also, like, a radical man of faith. Like, just clearly hears from the Lord regularly, clearly acts upon him. I mean, he has amazing stories. In this episode, I had to fight the urge to have him tell stories I've heard before because they're so good. I would encourage you guys to check out a great one with, like, getting to know him and lots of great stories. Is Heaven Meets Earth. It's a podcast. It's on YouTube and everywhere else as well. So he, at a young age, snuck into a rated R movie. And it was a story about a police officer. And God just encountered him during that film and felt like, called to be a police officer. Called this, like, militant peacemaking. And so his professional journey, like, starts with, like, he becomes a very distinguished police officer in law enforcement in D.C. and then he's, like, repeating repeatedly reproached by the CIA for, like, his unique approach to conflict resolution because he keeps accomplishing things that shouldn't work. From day one, he's, like, told his commanding officer that he prays and asks the Lord for direction, and he just does it and kind of this, like, he'll do it even if he'll get fired. I feel like that's one really unique thing about him through all his stories is kind of like his obedience to the Lord. It just led him to crazy places. So the CIA, like, comes to him and wants to understand what's happening here. How did this, like, hold drug ring go down? How did it just disappear? And the short version is there's this guy that assaulted an officer. He arrests him, he's driving away, and he feels like the Lord told him to let him go. And he's like, no, I can't let him go. I'm going to get fired. I can't do that. And, you know, a long story short, he ends up letting him go. He de. Arrested him. There was, like, it was just legal enough. And then, like, jumping forward in time, this guy ends up, like, feeling so much gratitude and ends up, like, becoming an informant and, like, helping them take down all this, all these drug busts and different things. And just amazing to see what the Lord did in that and even their relationship there. It's just like, that's like one of, like, a thousand stories he has. Eventually, like, they bring him into, like, higher conflict areas, war zones, and Places in the Middle East. He's seen some like, truly hard stuff, but also has had the Lord with him. And I've seen so much like healing and progress. I could go on and on. I actually, I just let us dive into it. But I really recommend that you Google his name, check out some of his stories. He really focuses on identity and identity in Christ and like what God has called us to. And then also kind of like that to counteract fear and just amazing what the Lord can do in our lives when we do that. So he has a book called Living Fearless. That's great as well. So anyway, I'm going to leave it here, but enjoy this conversation with Jamie Winship. When did God first become real to you? [00:02:49] Speaker B: It's pretty interesting because for me experiencing God is real was always with another person, you know, another person that was like a model that I could look to and, and then some form of art for, for certainly for both of us. But. So I was raised pretty strict. My mom independent Baptist, my dad not really engaged in anything religious. And so my mom kind of ran the house in terms of that stuff. And very strict. Go to church, read the Bible, read the King James, you know, no movies, no bad music, that kind of thing. And so yeah, at 14, I wanted to go to a movie theater and see a movie, you know, to see what was forbidden about that. And the thing is, you know, as you, you know, you form these neural pathways about life and the, the rules and they're deep. They're very deep. And they're even. Even at my age, at 65, I still wrestle with some of that heavy handed, sort of condemning legalism kind of stuff, which is absolute murder, to creativity in a human. Not just in the arts, but in any kind of vocation. You're just going to, you know, do whatever everyone else does anyway. So went to this, stuck into this movie. I didn't know what it was. And it was the movie Serpico with Al pacino. So like 1973, something like that. I was 14. And yeah, the. Everything about it, the music, the, the musical score for the movie, the cinematography, the gritty story, the true. There was a true story about police officer Frank Serpico. All of that just like cut through everything I understood about anything. It just sliced right through, kind of completely disarmed me and hit. Hit me right deep in this soul, in the spirit, in my inner heart. And I just, it was just so emotional to me that I just wept. And I was raised the way I was raised is like, you know, you don't cry. You don't. Were, you know, were martyrs, were determined. And so I just broke down crying and. But it was this weird kind of joyful, beautiful thing. I couldn't articulate it, but it wasn't guilt, it wasn't shame. It wasn't that stuff. It was something really beautiful. And I knew it. I could tell. And I knew it was. I didn't. I wouldn't attribute it to God because God to me didn't fit in those parameters. It was like something beyond that. And so, yeah, and it really struck me, and I. And I would. Kept looking at the. The police officer being portrayed by Al Pacino, and I kept saying, not that I wanted to do police work. It's the word. My word was be. That's what I want to be. That's what I want to be. It was a very much an ontological sense of being. [00:05:41] Speaker A: And. [00:05:41] Speaker B: And so I, I like, committed myself to becoming that what I was watching on the screen. And so the only way I understood metaphor at that point was literally like, okay, so that must. That you have to be in that vocation. Because a lot of times, you know, you take a metaphor literally and it's, It's. It can be helpful, but it can also be damaging. Anyway, so I just. I went forward in the movie theater because that was the culture of the independent Baptist. If you believe something's happening, you should go forward. So I walked forward in the movie theater at the end of the movie. Yeah. Got up on the little stage and I just said to whatever, if this was God, never known God in this beautiful, artistic, overwhelming acting, music, all of it together. Just a. Never known God to be artistic. He's more a judge. Just a judge in a very cold black and white courtroom. And so I, I just said, if I want to be this, I into whoever is that moving me like this. I want to be this person. And so 14, you know, until I went in the police academy at 8, age 23, all the way through high school, through university, I never wavered from becoming that. And of course, one, as I, when I actually, you know, had my first, like, personal experience with Jesus, clearly was when I was 17 and a nurse was. I was in the hospital and a nurse was explaining to me what Jesus, who Jesus truly was, and she was doing it through her vocation again, totally caught me off guard. I. I never heard the gospel like, that she was sharing from like, her own identity, not some canned formulaic presentation, which I knew by heart. And, and I knew the. Her God is The one that was in that theater, like, that's. That's her. She's. She's the fruit of that kind of. Remember that. That God there. Because she's. She's not. She's different than any other healthcare professional in this hospital that I've interacted with. She's a nurse, but she's. That's not her identity. She'. Bringing something into the vocation. And then I realized that's what the movie was. It wasn't a police officer. It was the identity being. Being demonstrated out in the vocation of police work, which was really dramatic to me. I never thought of bringing your identity into your vocation. You get your identity from your vocation or from what you have or what people think about you. Even Christianity was all about what people think about you. And, and you get your identity from what people think and do. They approve and all of that. And so I, when I left the hospital, those. So from age 14 to 17, those experiences melded or blended together. And I was like, oh, my gosh, she is in real life what I watched in that movie. And so my prayer, the way I prayed about it was, God, can you make me a police officer? Like, she's a nurse. Like, that's the only way I knew how to say it. Whatever it is that she's bringing to the nursing vocation, could you teach me how to bring that to the police vocation? Which is a very different motivation than I'm going to go out there, you know, and kick butt and take names and, you know, fix crime and all that. It's like, no, she was giving the gift of her identity to me in her vocation as nurse. How would I, as a police officer, give the gift of my identity to the people that I'm going to interact with because of that vocation? And so by the time I went to freshman in college, I had a pretty good sense of this is exactly what Jesus is doing. Doing. It's what he's. And it's what he's calling tax collectors, and all of them too, is He's. He's walking them into the truth of who they are. And then he's saying, that is your gift to the world in whatever vocation you happen to be in. And he's demonstrating that I'm the beloved son in the vocation of Messiah. And it was all just like, oh, gosh, this is the good news. This is the kingdom of God, and it allows for such creativity and freedom and beauty to think of, okay, this vocation that I'm in. There's a million ways to do this that hasn't even been thought of yet. Which made me creative and artistic as a police officer, which is why I made officer of the Year and got. I never went through a promotional exam. I just got promoted and then recruited by the State Department. All because of really my creativity in the vocation, which was a product of my identity. [00:10:04] Speaker A: That's good. [00:10:06] Speaker B: So good. [00:10:06] Speaker A: I've heard you talk some about sort of filling this call to almost as like a militant peacemaker in a way. And I feel like that is that I guess, when you're also talking about the kind of bringing creativity into the police work. Could you explain that a little bit more what that looks like, bringing that creativity into police work. [00:10:25] Speaker B: Right. So, you know, again, this is all a journey that humans are on. And the more fully human you are, the more you grasp, because most of what we do is inhumane. Most of it is. Is to dehumanize. So to be a police officer wasn't human. It was like that was the name of what you are. You're a police officer, they're a bad guy. And it. And it dehumanized. Everyone's dehumanized. So there's no real connection between the groups. You don't have, you know, it's like Cain and Abel. Like, he's not my brother. He's not my brother. And since he's not my brother, I now can do whatever I want to. So it dehumanizes and you become you. You lose all sense of real creativity except to create, to separate and destroy. That's all you're creating is, is programs, weapons that separate and destroy your enemy. So, so through the police department, I would be like, okay, we've been to this house 10 times over a year breaking up a domestic dispute. We're going to keep going here till someone's dead or someone's in jail. But even if they're in jail, they're going to come back and we're going to be here again. So the way that we're trained to do this doesn't work. Like, it's not working. And so because we're not resolving anything, we're just law enforcing. We're not serving and protecting. We're law enforcing. So right there, there was like a huge distinction in my mind. Our car says we serve and protect, but we don't. We just enforce laws. Jesus is a server and protector. Pharisees are law enforcers. Which one is bringing peace and which one is just creating more conflict? So Just that thought allowed creativity. Like, well, how would we shift away from law enforcement, which is how you're trained to serving and protecting, which is not how you're trained. How do you do that? Then I started like, okay, so that's not what we're trained to do. So I've got to like, come up with ways to do it outside of what I was trained to do. And that's creativity. And then the more I read the scriptures, the more I realized, well, the highest level of a human is to be a co creator with God. Like, that's our highest level is we're angels, can't create, demons can't create. We can create. That's our power, that's our Satan, can't create. Only we can with God. And so what are we doing with that? We should never be stuck in formulas and patterns and boredom. And it's because we abdicate that beautiful freedom to create and just go into like, what works, what's going to just get me to where I want to go. And so I was creating like that, trying to think of how do you investigate a case? And if I had the mind of Christ, what does that look like? Versus just a really good cop. And writing down ideas and praying and prayer becomes this search for external creativity. That's what it is. And internal inspiration. And in any vocation, you know, we use the word entrepreneur all the time. But like, you mean co creator with God? Create, Create. So. And so when I was doing so then when I was doing that, and then the State department gets interested in what I'm doing because it's different. And then, you know, they recruit me. And then when I get overseas, I'm with a guy who's watching me who happens to be one of the five people that super influenced my life. And he's an expert in what he does overseas. And he's just looking at me and he says, you don't know who you are. Like you don't know who you are. And I'm really, I mean, I'm really good at what I do. I like, I made it. And I, you know, I went to graduate school and all this stuff and got, I, I didn't apply for a job, I got recruited into jobs. And. And he said, you don't know who you are. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, you don't. Like, you don't know distinctly who you are. And I said, how do you know? And he said, because you're just imitating other people. Like you're a cover Band. You're a good cover band, but you're a cover band. And he said, we don't need. We don't need that because we already have. What we need is what we lack by not having you here. But we don't know who you are. We don't know what you bring, and we can't tell you. You have to tell us who you are and what your gift is to what we do. And I didn't had no idea what he was talking about until. And then. So they hooked me up with this guy who walked me through this process. And in that process, it was like, okay, who am I? If Jesus was going to introduce me to somebody, how would he introduce me? He would say this. He wouldn't say, this is a Christian guy. He would never call anybody that. He wouldn't say, this is a child of God. That's everybody. Like, who distinctly is this person? And how would Jesus introduce this person to another person? And I asked him, who do you say that I am? Like, who would you say that I am? And just like this image in my mind came first of warrior. Like, okay, that resonates. But that, like, Gideon was a warrior, but he didn't think he was. He thought he was a coward. Like, that's. I lived in the identity of a coward, even though his true identity is man of valor. And so. So when the Lord speaks or, you know, when you have that impression, it's usually opposite to what you really believe about yourself, deep down. So when he says you're a warrior, it's like, wow. I mean, it was. It almost made me cry because, like, deep down, I don't think that's what I'm trying to prove. That's what I am. But. And so. But if you believed it, you wouldn't have to prove it. So you would just be settled in it. And so then the next. And I said, like, what does that mean? That's a broad term. And he said, you're a militant peacemaker. As soon as I sense that word, then you can, like, go back in your life and go, what were you doing in third grade? What were you doing in fifth grade? What? And you start to see, oh my gosh, that is. That's was. All of my pain was searching how to bring peace to situations in a world I just didn't feel like could ever. And it's so I could. It was always there. I just didn't know it. Like Joshua, I mean, Jacob, when he has the dream of the angels in the ladder and he wakes up. And he said, surely God is in this place. And I didn't even know it. That's most humans right there, even Christians. No, God's in this place right now and you don't know it. And the way we know you don't know it is because you are trying like crazy to make this thing happen. And that's not the way to think about it. It's. It's much more about receiving and giving the gift of your identity. So once I understood that, it actually really lined up with how. How the State department tested me psychologically, how the police department did it. I was like, that's exactly what they were saying to me. You have this tendency. You don't like conflict, but you gravitate towards it. It's weird. Why, if you hate conflict, do you gravitate towards it? Because you hate it. And so you gravitate towards it to bring peace. So in my sort of inauthentic self, I hate violence, so I avoid it. It's my greatest gift to the world is to go into violent places and bring peace. But in my self protection and self promotion, I avoid the very thing that gives me joy, but I don't know it because I'm afraid of it. And you get in this false kind of life of self protection and self promotion, you're dissatisfied, but you can't really tell why until you realize who does God say you are and what. And what are you sad about in your life based on that beautiful identity? What does that identity make you want to go do and be? It makes you want to go to places that you probably are most fearful of because of how deeply it affects you. So once I realize that, then you become. You get really skilled and okay, I'm going to those places. And when we get to those places, we're going to figure out what in this identity brings peace to that situation. So then you know what to train in, honestly. And you're really good at it, actually, because now you're working in line with your own. [00:17:29] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah. I feel like even within that, the two things that you've talked about and previously too, that jumped out at me is like, so clearly identity is a big part of it. I also feel like what's very. Like when I hear you talking, even on other podcasts, it's like hearing from the Lord and not just mimicking Christian behavior, you know, but actually, like, make space to hear from the Lord. I'm thinking too. I feel like even like in an artist standpoint, like, I think for Me, it was almost like I was trying to be creative. And then I was like, had my faith and my community group and my church and something I care deeply about, but I just couldn't quite. It almost felt like I need to, like, close that off to go, try to, quote, be creative, you know, which I. That's been changing for sure, in me. But I'd be curious to hear you say for, like, the artists and creatives out there who are like, a, how do I find this identity? And then B, I think is like, tell us. Teach us how to hear from the Lord from. From your perspective. [00:18:31] Speaker B: I do this every day with people. I do. We have to do it ourselves. I do it with. We have a creative team that met this morning. So what you have to think about first is the. The. The gift that you bring to a community is your identity. That is your greatest gift. It's the only distinctive you have is your identity. And so if you don't know what that is, then you're gonna imitate. I mean, that's what you. You just have, like, who do I really admire? I'm gonna try and be like them. That's okay. That's a good way to start. But like I said, you don't want to be a cover band the rest of your life. You can start that way, but you don't want to stay that way. So identity and hearing from the Lord. So identity. When I'm talking identity with people, I ask them questions because first of all, that identity has been there your whole life. It's not going to suddenly appear. It's not like you meet God and all of a sudden he gives you an identity. What he does is awakens what he's already put in you for any human. Any human. And so. So what are the. So you. Down inside. The person actually has a sense of it. They just never thought about it or whatever. And the negative identities are so believable and powerful. The true identity is hard to believe because it takes faith to believe that about yourself. It takes faith. Doesn't take any faith to believe the lies about you. None. You're. You're not smart. I know it. You're gonna fail. I know. I. Yeah, you're a disappointment. I have, like. It doesn't take any faith to believe any of that stuff. And because we believe the false and it's painful to us, then you better find some coping mechanisms for it. Like, you just better find them. And so those coping mechanisms can be like. For me, I had to do a year in rehab because of my coping mechanisms, of I'm a disappointment. It didn't matter what achievement level I made. It doesn't take away the false identity. Time can't take away a false identity. Achieve only truth can. Time doesn't heal any wound. Only truth heals wounds. Like, that's what heals us. And if you. So if we don't have a place to discover that truth, then we get stuck in it and we have to develop coping mechanisms to survive. You just have to. Whether your coping mechanism, I'm going to become super ultra religious and memorize the Bible or I'm going to go drink one. They're both deadly because they take you away from the truth of who you are. And so that's why we get in these community groups and everything to like stay healthy, but they're actually not making you healthy. And then you feel like, I gotta leave that to go over here and kind of tap into my creativity. When the whole what a lie does is it separates and fragments our life. So we have this part and then we have this part, and then we have this part. And the goal of the lie is to just fragment and fragment and fragment and fragment till the whole thing falls apart. Whether it's in a human or in a country, it just keeps fragmenting into smaller and smaller divisive parts and it just falls apart like that. What God's always doing is reconcile and reconnect. Always. He's reconciling and bringing all things together. So whatever we're doing, in what way is it reconciling and bringing things together like that? What is and is the message that I'm. And it can be, you know, a million different ways, but is it reconciling it? So discovering your true identity can only be done by receiving it in community and working it out in community. It's the only way. So forget Christianity. Like if you go back to any culture, all of them had naming ceremonies. The Bible's filled with the importance of naming and names and having good names and bad names and right names and wrong names. And every culture had naming ceremonies. And I think only probably native populations have it. Bar mitzvahs are naming ceremonies. So my wife is Jewish. So our sons all went through naming ceremonies in the Jewish community, which means you're now 14. You now have to realize you have a distinct role in this community. And the community is going to tell you what that role is. It's not radical individual is. It's not like go off and come up with an identity and tell us what it is because that creates separation and division. Radical individuals always creates conflict. But receiving your identity and communities like, oh, the community recognizes this is my contribution to the community. And if I'm not there, they don't have it. And if I'm not there, I'm not giving. So it's all. It's never separate. And just for me, we've. But then slowly we've just gotten rid of all that. And so now we're just these individuals trying to think of the coolest name we can think of. But it doesn't have any part to play in community. It's all how, look at me, look how distinctive I am. You are distinct, but a hand is distinct. When it's connected to an arm, then it's really beautiful, but by itself over there on the floor, not that helpful. And that's what we've done. So fragmented everything. It's like, I'm going to be my own individual. And you're denying that beautiful identity to the community. So hearing from God is very simple. God is always communicating to human beings that every human God is in constant communication with that human. They just. You just have to train to pay attention to it. Because we're trained to pay attention to other stuff. We're trained to. And so my example I always give is, when I was a rookie cop and my f. Training officer is like, you got to learn to hear your number on the radio when they call you, because it's a big department and there's lots of talk on the radio, and if you don't hear your number, you don't know what the heck is going on. And I'm like, okay, I'm ready to listen. He said, they've already called you three times. Well, if you put me on a lie detector test and said, did they call you? And I said, no, I would be telling the truth. And I'm completely wrong. That's what people don't understand. You can be saying what you think is absolutely true and you're completely wrong. God's never talked to me in my life. I know you believe that's true, but it's never true. And so why can't I hear my number? Because I have to train my hearing to get rid of all of this and focus on that. And. And I had to train to do it so that now if I'm sound asleep and my wife wants to wake me up, she just leans over and goes, 5, 10. My whole body comes alive because I trained to hear that, that. That identity. And so this is what Discipleship is discipleship in memorizing a bunch of verses. Discipleship is disciplining for you to learn to walk in the truth of who you are and give that to the world. That's real discipleship, and it involves every part of your life. And so if we just have Bible study over here, and then this over here, like, you're fragmenting the whole. And so this becomes super frustrating over here. And then you get over here and you don't have this piece over here, and that's frustrating. But connect them, and God is speaking across all of them very simply. When I talk to people, I'm like, I just did it. Right before I came on here, I was with a guy, super discouraged. He's about my age. And I'm like, what? Tell me a time in your life you had joy anytime. And think. And they have to think. When did I have joy? Okay, first through fifth grade. Let's tell me what joy looks like. Well, I was happy to get out of bed in the morning. Good. Why? Because I wanted to create things. Yeah. What? What things? Create what things? Here comes that true identity. Right at a full attention, right in this. But the beginnings, like, I don't know what I'm doing in life. And, you know, I'm divorced, and it's like, false. All the false. All the false. All the false. Yeah, I get it. Okay, but before that, what did you want to create? And he said, I just wanted to be with people and listen to what they had to say about their lives, their problems. First through sixth grade, he's already in his identity. You can't. But when did you lose it? 7th grade. What happened in 7th grade? I. In 7th grade. What happened in seventh grade? I realized I'm ugly. Really? How? Okay, so you didn't, like, walk down the street and go, you know what? I'm ugly. Somebody told you you were ugly. You had to be told you were ugly. Who told you that? And he was pretty detailed. Some teacher. A teacher made fun of him. The way he looked at Blast. This guy's. He's probably 60. Doesn't matter if he's a hundred. That day named him. And he took that day and said, yep, that's mine. And he can't break it. You can't break it by just. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Everything after he's so self conscious. And then. And as soon as he said, what happened in seventh. Gramka, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. What are you going to do now? In seventh Grade with the fact that you know you're ugly and there is nothing you can do about it. What are you going to do? Either you're going to give up or you're going to prove, prove. Prove that you're not ugly, that you're valuable, that you're worthy. Either way, you're going to go away from the truth of who you are. And so I said. So on the day, just sitting with them in a restaurant just now, on the day, seventh grade, where were you standing when you realized that? Right in front of the school, waiting for my parents to pick me up. Okay, all right. And tell me who said that about you? He names the person. How does it make you feel now? It's a hundred years ago. I hate it. It may. It makes me disgusted with myself. That's. There's the killer for him right there. He's already disgusted with himself. So whatever he goes to do in life, the disgusted one is going to do it. And he already doesn't like the way he looks and all that. And. And he looks fine. I mean, come on. But that doesn't matter what I say. And so I said, okay, on that day, you remember that if it hurts. I believe that God is always present everywhere in the world, all the time. He was present there with you, in your imagination, in your mind. If he was there, where was he? And he just sitting there thinking. He goes, I think he was next to me. Okay, which side, right or left? And it's beautiful how the mind works. So gorgeous because it can see the unseen real. It can also see the unseen false, which is dangerous. But you can see the unseen true. That's a decision we have to make. He's on my left. Okay, well, in Hebrew culture, when God's on our left, it means he wants us to receive from Him. Okay, so what's he wanting to receive? He's on the right. He wants you to give out and bless. What did he say when they said you're ugly? What did he say? You heard them. They said that we're not denying that. That he's. This is what you don't know. What did he say? And the guy gets all emotional and he said. He said I'm kind, right? He didn't say you were handsome. He said you were kind. You know why? Because that's more important than how you look. You're kind. What else did he say about you? Kind, courageous. What was the other thing? And beautiful. Kind, courageous and beautiful, let's say. Okay, okay. Kind, beautiful. Here's a verse for you to memorize. Jesus said, if my words abide in you, if. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you want. Okay? Now when you hear that, when my. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, what words do you think he means that abide in you? And he's like, the Bible, I'm like, that's not what he said. It's not the word graphe, it's the word rhema. My rhema abides in you. What is rhema? The spoken word. To abide in Christ means you need every day to abide in him and let what he said about you abide in you. Here's what he says about you. Kind, courageous and beautiful. If you learn to let those words abide in you. And that is, that's who you become kind, courageous and beautiful. Not beautiful here. Beautiful to everyone that surrounds you. Like what a beautiful person. That's far deeper than you're ugly. Right? And I said if you, if you abide in that every day and it's going to be a battle because all the. But if you can learn to abide in those, let Jesus abide in you. Abide in what he says about you. Then Jesus says, ask me, ask me things. And to the kind and courageous, beautiful you, let's go. But to the ugly, you can't go anywhere. Can't go. And if you will let those words abide in you, you will bear fruit. And it will be fruit that reap. It's not Bible verses. It's not the Ten Commandments is. What does Jesus say about you? Do you believe what he says about you uniquely? And righteousness is to believe what God. Look in the mirror and learn to believe what God says about you when he talks about you. And it's hard because he says very high level things about us. And it's so easy to walk away. Gone there. That's hearing from God. It's so gorgeous. And once you start to practice that, you realize he's speaking in every good idea. He's speaking in nature, he's speaking in the Bible. He's all the time. He's talking so good. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Oh man. So good. So I hear you saying a part of like even receiving the identity is in community. That'll be a part of it. Another part is learning to listen and strip away, I think almost identify and strip away the false identity. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:47] Speaker A: And in that process, it sounds like often people do hear from the Lord in that process of stripping away a false identity. Or more say they, their ears are in tune to what he's saying. [00:30:56] Speaker B: That's right. Because you're clearing away all the faults that you believe. It's hard for the Lord to speak on top of all the false. So it's like an emptying out. And another question I ask people is like, tell me the things that. Tell me the things you believe about yourself that you hate. Tell me the names that you believe about yourself that hurt you. People can tell you right away what they are, but they just learn to cope with them. They don't know how to get rid of them, they just cope with them. And so they're always right there below the surface. And if you touch them, you know, the person all reacts. Yeah. So let's get rid of those in that empty space now. Ask the Lord, what do you say? And learn. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah, like that. It's pretty straightforward, very human process. [00:31:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:37] Speaker B: It doesn't matter whether a person's Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. These are very human things. And because God didn't create religious names, he works with human, human beings. That's who he works. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Is there, is there any other steps in the identifying your identity? I know you mentioned also like where, where did you find joy at a young age? [00:31:56] Speaker B: But yeah, really the fastest, the quickest way I do it for myself is what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of always I ask people, I ask my wife that question every day. Tell me what you're afraid of today. If you want to be close with a person, tell them what you're really afraid of. That builds intimacy like nothing else does because none of us will say it. We don't know how to truth tell about this kind of stuff. And most people are not afraid of, you know, they're afraid of like failure. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm afraid of not belonging. I'm afraid those very beautiful things they've been afraid of their whole life. What are you afraid of? Because perfect love takes away fear. So what are you afraid of? Okay, all fear is learned. So what are you afraid of? Where did you learn? Who taught you to be afraid of that? The only built in fears in a human is the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. All other fear is learned. Everything you're afraid of in a day you were taught to be afraid of. Where did my question. Where did you learn to be afraid? Who taught you to be afraid of rejection? Who taught you to be afraid of money? You would have never been afraid of money if you Weren't taught to worry about it every day. Who taught you to worry about it? Where did you learn that? And that so that they can begin to truth tell. Oh, it was the experience when, you know, my dad lost his job or, you know, I grew up in poverty or whatever it is. That's where you learn to be afraid of it. Because there's nothing to be afraid of there. What you want to be afraid of is believing about yourself things that are not true and believing about the world things that are not true. That's what you should be afraid of. Not do I have enough like all of that. So what are you afraid of? Where did you learn it? Tell me the day you learned it or as close as you can. Okay. In that day. What about. Tell me the incident. They'll explain it and I'll say, okay. Now, same thing. On that day, you didn't know it. You just responded like any. You reacted like any normal person. But there was another interpretation of what that means. You got one and it's hurting you. What if God was there or in perfect love or whatever the person can use for the word that's opposite of the false Jesus, whatever. What did they want you to know that day? And it's incredible what pops in people's hearts and minds. It's like, you're okay. Yeah, you were enough. That was your dad's woundedness that hurt you. And you're like. And then the result is mercy on the other person. That's how you know it's God. It's like, oh, you know, they. Oh, they acted out of their own woundedness. I mean, when we, when we prayed like this with guys that we arrested, man, you should see what happens when you're in an interview room doing that with human beings, how quickly they'll tell the truth. And you're not trying to beat a confession out of them or drag them through. It's like, you're broken, man. You're broken. Let's talk about the day you got broken. How old were you when this was done to you? And that's what opens them up. Because I know you're not doing this because you like, like doing this. You're doing this because you think this is the only thing you can do to show power. Where did you learn that? That's how fearful you are. Where did you learn that level of fear? Who did this to you? And man, that's when the human being comes out. But you go in there and threaten that person, you're shutting them right into the world. They've always been in fear, threat, control, power. So what we're all used to is like, if you. You either do what we say or we're going to run over you and you'll never work in this industry or you. You'll never deal with our country because you're going to only do it the way we say it, or. That's how we're all raised. That's why places eat our soul. We go there to be creative. I don't want your creativity. We want, what can you produce for us? That's always the question of the empire. What can you produce for me that makes me money? And if you can't, we don't care what. What you think or who you are. We don't care about your being. We care about your doing. And then you go sit in a church, you're like, we're glad you're here. How many people can you into Christ for us? How much money can you produce for us? It's the same productions. You can't get away from the production emphasis. Instead of just be here in your true identity and let the gift of your identity produce what it does. And that'll be the greatest thing, whether it's a movie script or kindness or whatever it is. And that's. And then the community works together and it's beautiful. Such a hard time with it because we're fearful. It's funny. Yeah. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I. I felt like there was this time in my life when it's like the Lord, it just rescued me in such a clear way that I was like, oh, I want to create, like, a story about him. And as I was like, writing this thing, you know, finished writing, I was like, this isn't very good. I was like, I just don't really like this. And I was like. I felt like I was praying about it. And I sort of felt like the Lord was like, this time, let's try again, start from scratch. And this time, instead of trying to just write about me, how about you try to write with me? [00:36:38] Speaker B: Great. [00:36:39] Speaker A: And like, let's do this together. And like, the act itself being an act of worship versus being like. Like you said, how many people will come to Christ because of this? You know, And. And it just. It was a whole shift for me. I was like, this is. It's like, now I don't have to be alone when I do this. You know what I mean? Now it's in ways I can, like, do it with him. And that's. That's cool to hear. I wanted to ask you, what do you feel is like one of the bigger obstacles like creatives encounter when trying to be spirit led? Yeah, I mean the work or their calling. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Fear. It's always fear. The number one exhortation in scripture is don't be afraid. It's, it's the most repeated exhortation by God is do not be afraid. And that's the killer of people. Once people are fearful, they'll self protect and self promote and they'll shut down their true identity in order to self protect or self promote, whichever they have to think they have to do. So the question is more, if you weren't afraid, if you weren't afraid, what would you do? If you weren't afraid, if you weren't afraid of money, if you weren't afraid of rejection, if you weren't afraid of bad people living in a hostile environment, what would you do? Because when you were young, you weren't afraid, but you learned to be afraid slowly. Right? So like, you know, I have grandkids and my granddaughters are getting older, but when they're little young, they would like facetime us and sing songs. And they were beautiful. They were the most. They look in the mirror and they see beauty. They think they're great singers, they think they're great actresses. And it's amazing to watch them. Until they went to school and were told they weren't. And then it was gone. It wasn't gone for like an hour. It was gone. That's how fast the world just rips that out of us. And so then when we go to do something, it's like, well, and that's why I like what you're saying. It's like, well, it's not very good. That's always what you're going to say. The scarcity worldview is not enough. It's always not. It's never enough. That's how we're raised. Nothing is ever enough. There's not enough time, there's not enough money. There's, you're not enough, there's not enough land, there's not enough food. That's the whole way we're taught our whole life. And if we don't go get it, we're not going to have it. This is Eve's in the garden. It's like, wow, he didn't give us everything. We thought he did. He didn't. We got to go get this other piece. And so that as soon as that fear kicks in, either you're going to address that fear. Where's it coming from what do I do? What's the source of the fear? Which is. Will be false identity actually, unless you address that, you're going to go to protect against the fear. Right. So that's when you break down. I'll change my idea. I'll, you know, we'll change the program. Not because there's other creative voices and they're shaping it, which is fine, but it's because. Nah, because they're not going to take it unless I do this or it's not going to work. You know, like when I would try, you know, like the, the things that got me the most sort of influence in the police department were all firing offenses. When I did them, they were absolutely firing offenses. Except they worked. That's the difference. But how would you ever know that all you're afraid of is getting fired? That the fear shuts down the creativity to try something different and whatever it is you're doing, we could fail. Definitely you can. Yes. That's a fact of the. When you live in a world of mystery, it's all about failure. But that's normal and part of the process and it's not an identity. So let's try and. Because if you're not going to try, obviously and it's all cliches is you're not going to ever do anything. But it's fear. That's why, that's why the scriptures are constantly saying, don't be afraid. And I'm always asking our team and our people, even our CEO does it at the beginning of a meeting. She just said today she's like, is anyone afraid right now? Is anyone dealing with fear in any part of your life? Because if you are, your identity is not going to be fully engaged in this process we're going to go into. And so in families, families operate in fear as whole families. They never address it. They. So the family can't even bring its own identities to each other because they're self protecting and self promoting. Or if I say this, you know, my partner might get mad or. So that's it. To me here is to great, great and perfect. Love is what takes away fear. It's the only thing. [00:40:45] Speaker A: And what would you. I guess is it kind of similar what you're saying where like, okay, you find that fear. Where did this come from? And then kind of that inner healing of like inviting the Lord into that and being. Where were you? What do you want to say to this? This moment? [00:40:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. How do you speak to that fear? So yeah, yeah. And just because if God is present, omnipresent, like we say, then he's present in every situation. You don't have to beg him to show up, which we're taught we need God. We really need you to show up right now. It's like, where do you think he is? Like, is he over there somewhere? Where is he? He's omnipresent. He can't go anywhere else. He is. He's all that is. He's right here. So. But if you live your life like he's down the street somewhere, you're already living in a lie that's already a lie. And it's a. It's a crippling lie because he's not with me. He's not with me. And David says it beautifully in the Psalms, in his poetry is like, where can I go from your spirit into the heavens? You are there. Yet in the depths of Sheol, yet you are there. That is. That's a powerful statement. So we think we can get into a state of sin where he can't go. He's right there. The thing is, are we going to acknowledge that he's right there? Are we going to look at him and say, yeah, I'm so terrified right now. And here's what I believe about you. You're not here. That you're not here. I believe you're not here. That's real confession. He doesn't want you to apologize for stuff. He just wants you to say what you really believe. And I feel like, Lord, I feel like I'm all alone here and that you're not anywhere near me, helping me. What's the truth? Help, Because I can't make myself believe something. You have to persuade me. You have to convince me. And I don't think we think God can do it or will do it. So we don't. We've got to. We've got to convince ourselves as hot. Which is really hard to do. Doesn't last very long. [00:42:29] Speaker A: Yeah. When we're doing that, I've heard, you know, hearing about your experience with the Lord in a movie theater, you know, when you're not supposed to be there and everything like that. And I've also heard, I think there's little moments on other of you talking about working on a film or writing a project right now. Are you involved in like a film project or something about that? [00:42:54] Speaker B: A couple, but yeah. One animated. That's. That's same thing. It was so interesting. The writer of it is. Lives here in our city and we met through these very bizarre circumstances. She Would she can talk about how the Lord did it. And we met and then. So she was showing me different things that she's written. And she's a good script writer, she's a good story writer, but never had anything really hit. And when I was reading her stuff after knowing her for a few months, I said, how come you don't. How come. Why don't you put your identity into this? Like, why isn't your identity. This isn't coming out of your identity. This is coming out of, you know, how to write a good story. And I said that, and that's great, but what would really make this thing distinct is you. So why are you afraid? And then she said, well, I don't really know what that is. And so I said, well, let's put the story aside and let's work on that. So we worked together on identity, and then she came back, wrote it again, and it's in full production now. And the people that are working on it with her, the animators and all, she'll tell you, they weep when they read it. It's a simple story. And by itself it was an okay simple story, but not when she put her identity. It's. It's more like writing with God. God's like, I made you to tell a story like no one else can tell it. It doesn't have to be like. It doesn't have to be like, so new. No, it's just the way you tell it. Tell it the way you tell. And she did it. And, you know, investors came in and put money in two weeks that thing was fully invested. Shocking things that she's been trying to do for a long time. And it just. Those things open because she started to abide in what the Lord said about her and, and what you're saying with, with and together in the identity that he gave her with him. She wrote this beautiful script and it's. And they're already asking her for another one and they want a merchandising contract. Like, that's what I'm talking about. And so what we're doing is she did it. She sat with me one day and I just told her stories of police stuff we did and stuff overseas. And she wrote it. It to a script and, you know, Muslims coming to faith. But what does that really look like in the real world? Not in some fabricated Christian scenario, but in the real. How does a Hamas. What happens to a Hamas person when they encounter Jesus in the real world? Not so that you can write a book about, you know, this Guy used to be a bad guy, now he's a good guy. I'm not like that stuff. Like, no, he stayed in that world to win his brother's faith. Like, no one will ever know who this person is, but he's done more unbelievable stuff because he's of how he did. And so she wrote the script in that three seasons and when we. And she flew right. Because she knew what it was and she flew right to. Out to Hollywood and pitched it and they, and it was, they took it immediately. And then they called me about it and completely pushed her out, which is typical. You know, we don't need her. You're the one that told the story. We don't need her. And I like, I'm like, I can't believe you're gonna do this to my face. You're just gonna totally kick her out of it. And so I turned them down and they told me, you'll never get a deal, like what we're gonna give you because nobody knows who you are. And I said, I don't care. It doesn't. I don't believe it. That's. That's Empire and the Kingdom thing. Anyway, so, yeah, we just did an investor meeting on it yesterday and it's great. And so that's the one we're working on. It's a three season episodic about stuff that we're talking about. But it's in a way, it's in the story that I know all the cops I worked with would love. They're. They're not believers they would love because it's them that I'm talking about. It's what happened to them in their real lives. I mean, I worked the suicide of my lieutenant's wife one on a midnight shift and I had to go tell him, like, he's not a believer. Like, what do you say to that? You know, how do you talk to him? [00:46:39] Speaker A: Or. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, a lady who's. Both her kids were decapitated behind her in a car and she's knocked out. So she doesn't know what happened and she wakes up, okay, now I'm going to tell her about that. In what way does God speak in that situation? It's hard and it's messy. But to watch how he does it is just incredible. But those aren't the stories. You know, when I'm watching Christian stuff, it's not that those aren't the stories that you see. It's always, yeah, it's just different than that. And yeah, one of the guys we were just with a Muslim guy that he came to faith out in the desert in the Middle east in a vision. And he went and told his tribe, and they shot him, threw him off a cliff, that you should see that guy today. He's incredible. He was tortured for five days in the desert, being caught by knives. And. And when they had him hanging up on the fifth day, they were saying, you can't tell, dear. Stop telling people you're a Christian. He said, I'm not a Christian. I. I don't even know what that word means. He's never read the word Christian anywhere. He only read the Gospels. And the word Christian is not in the Gospels. He didn't know what the. The police were saying. You. You can't be a Christian. He's like, I don't know what that is. I'm. I'm from this tribe. We are Muslim people. I don't. And they're cutting him and torturing him. And then they say to him they can't figure out what he's talking about. Then they said, why do you keep talking about Jesus? He goes, oh, he's the one that's talking to me all the time. He's talking to me right now. How can I say I don't believe in him? He's right here whispering in my ear right now. He's hung up, dehydrated, cut. And he goes, he's talking in my ear right now. And the. The captors said, what's he saying to you? And he said, he's telling me that every time you cut me, more of him comes out of. He's inside my pain. Keeps telling me he's inside my pain. And when you cut me, it comes out in a kind of joy. That's what he said. It's not like he's going to get me out of the torture. He's like, you're beyond the torture. Like, that's the story that moves people. It's like he didn't come to take away suffering. He came to show you how to suffer in a whole nother way so you're not afraid of it. And so they said, what are you saying back to him? And he's saying, he said, I. I can hear him whispering, but I want to see his face. And I keep asking him to move around so I could see his face. And he keeps telling me, if you look in my eyes, I'm going to take you with me. And. And so he told the guys with the swords cut my throat so I can go, please, I want to go so bad. Let me go with him. I want to see him face to face. Cut my throat. And they, and they were. He was so fearless about death. He was. And he'd never read Colossians, you know, to live as Christ dies. He doesn't know any of that stuff. He lives it. He knows it because it's real. We don't know that stuff. We don't know that stuff. And so they released him to punish him. They wouldn't kill him to punish him because they knew how badly he wanted to go and they'd like. And so he's. I mean you should hear that guy talking at least to Muslims. But he's not an evangelist. He's not a Christian evangelist. He's in that tribe that shot him. He's still there with him. He loves him. Wow. So like just for a Muslim, to watch a Muslim, young 18 to 25 year old fighter, to watch that guy go through that is the greatest courage they've ever seen. And it's not. It has meaning to his. His martyrdom has meaning. Not like you're going to die for Hamas. What a waste. Like, that's a weight. But to die like that. They, but they've never seen a testimony like that. They just see Muslims convert to Christianity. Like, we're the bad guys now. They became good guys and they don't want anything to do with it. But you show them a real story of a real one. The last thing I'll say about that is when I was a cop, it was funny. Hill Street Blues had just come on, you know, Steven Bosco, the Hill Street Blues cop show. And my squad couldn't wait to go home and watch that stuff. We couldn't wait. We did it all day long and all night long. Like, why do you want to go home and watch it? Because it just portrayed them in a way that they thought was real. And I was like, imagine if through the season they were watching one or two of them be spiritually transformed. They would do it, they would have done it. If they can watch their own slowly walking through. Why do you deal with alcoholism? Why do you deal with like, you know, you just made a five million dollar cash discovery. Why not take it and go to Peru? Because you're never going to make that kind of money in this job. That's the stuff they dealt with all the time. It's like that. But watching a police officer go through that and encountering Jesus in these certain ways, it would give them a pattern to follow, you know, so that's what the power of entertainment could do. Most of it's just like, you got to be some special forces dude and go in and rescue people. It's like, this is not real life. It's not real. It's a great movie, but it's not real like that. Because then if it's. If it's like that kind of person, I'll never be that person, so I can't be in it. It's like, it's not that kind of person. It's people like you. The whole thing is people like you. So, like, when you say, I went to Hollywood and you know, and all that happened to you, like, tell me that story. Because that story right there is a story everyone can relate to. Wherever they went and they got chewed up and eaten up, and you didn't quit. Like, you didn't give up. You didn't. Why not? Why just stay in it? Or why are you. Do you still love God? [00:51:40] Speaker A: Why? [00:51:42] Speaker B: We had a girl when I was teaching in a Muslim university, and she had this dramatic experience with Christ, and she started telling everyone in the university, and she got kicked out forever. And I went back eight years later, and she worked in a rice paddy. Like, she was an engineering genius, and she ended up working at a rice paddy. Never worked in anything else in the rest of her life. And I went out there and I sat with her and I said, all you're going to do is pick and plant rice the rest of your life in this field. And she said, I know. Isn't it beautiful? And I said, why? Do you love Jesus still? She said, yes. And I said, why? He ruined your life. He ruined you. And she said, no, this is he. He set me free. But in our kind of world, as believers, that's not the goal. So, yay, we can work in a rice field the rest of our lives. Just us, Jesus. Then we failed. You know what I mean? Because we're raised like, if you're with Jesus, you're gonna. And so people can't relate to a lot of the stuff that we show them, because it's. It's like, show me a girl that has peace in that future, and I'll. I'll show you a God that really can be with you. So that's why I like when you say that. You say that story about where you went there and the things that you. That. That, you know, you got into, whatever it seems like this, like, oh, man, now you're talking. [00:52:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker A: I think even in that, it's like, what I felt even What Prodigal, the nonprofit we have is like, really? I feel like what I felt called to and we feel called to is like kind of tell the, the darker stories or, you know, there's kind of like light in the midst of darkness and that tend to tell as honest as possible. You know, I think that, like, I actually think there's an obligation as someone who believes in Christ to be honest in what, what you write, you know, versus to try to, you know, do a positive propaganda or something. But do you feel like in some of the, you know, quote, faith based stuff that exists, do you feel you, you have a diagnosis for why some of that stuff doesn't work? [00:53:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's, I think it's because it's messy, right? And it's messy and we want like, no, here's the, here's where I was bad, here's where I became good. Like we want these clear lines and it's just, it's inauthentic, as you're saying. It's inauthentic. And you know, it's interesting. Like when you think that's, to me, it's just like, I'm watching, I'm like, where is this real? Even when they tell true stories. Yeah, even when they're doing that. It's like, I can already tell you how this thing's going to go. I can tell you before I go to the thing how it's going to go. It's a set. It's going to be a set progression because if it doesn't end up here, no one's going to, you know, we're not going to capitalize on the Christian market, which I think is just hilarious. We figured out, wow, we can make movies that Christians will go to. Wow, let's do that. And so I think that's, for me, it just doesn't ring true. And that's why, you know, where, when I was in Dubai, when we were in the Middle East, I was in Dubai and I went to the theater and I was watching a movie, the Kingdom of Heaven, about the Crusades. Really great movie. And they were. And every time they would show Salah Deen as the leader of the Muslims, everyone in that theater would stand up and cheer. Every, I mean, whole. Except, you know, except all theater stands up and cheer because it's one of their heroes. Salah Dean's one of their heroes. And he's portrayed in that movie pretty accurately. He's pretty. He was a very good man. But we would never portray Muslim like That in our shows, we don't portray them like that. They're bad guys. And so that's 1.7 billion people that we have. Just. And they can't look at a prophet. So they can't go watch the Chosen because they can't look at a prophet. They can't see an image of a prophet. Like, do. Do we know. Nobody cares about that. In fact, they can't do that. We're still just going to do stuff that Christians will go to, completely disregarding the whole rest of the world. Because it's like so, like, it's. To me, it's like kind of like you said, it's kind of a propaganda thing, but that's what I feel like. Show me how messy this thing is where a prostitute becomes, you know, a woman in the line of Jesus. Like, like, that's. That's how messy the Bible is. It's messy and life is messy. And so just give me some hope by telling me the truth about what happens. People make it out. People don't make it out. Most story arcs in Scripture go, like, end low. They don't end up here. They end down here. And, and finally in that. So when Jesus is in the mount of Transfiguration and it's Elijah and Moses with him, it's Jesus, Elijah and Moses. And they're talking about the Exodus or the end, the exit of Jesus. Why those? Why. Why Moses and Elijah? And they say it's a law in the prophets. Maybe, but be more human than that. Why are Moses and Elijah the ones talking to Jesus about how Jesus is going to go out to the crucifixion? Because Moses and Elijah both failed. They were both failures. They're not the Daniel, you know, they're the. They're the guys that didn't. Moses didn't get there. He did. Elijah was to turn the hearts back to God. He did it. He was depressed. He. He. He. He's playing. Stepped out of what probably what God was asking him to do. And so, but they didn't lose, like, the point. Like, they're still in the game. The game's eternal. They're still in it. And though they may have perceived even to themselves that they failed, they didn't. Because Jesus wins the whole thing. And so who better for Jesus in his humanity to be standing there going, look, everyone's going to think you failed this thing. Your own guys are going to think you failed this. You're not failing. It doesn't fail. It won't fail. Like, I love that about The Bible. But boy, you're gonna go out looking like a failure to the whole world. Even today, when I'm with Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, they always say to me, Jesus wasn't a failed Jesus wasn't a false messiah. He wasn't. He was a failed messiah. He failed. He didn't bring the kingdom, he didn't bring the kingdom to Israel. He was killed by Romans. Like, what's the victory in that? I think that's what Moses and Elijah were talking about. It's like it's going to look like he didn't get him into the land, but that's not right. And I love that about the Bible, that the highest transfiguration of Christ in his truest form is with two guys that didn't go out. Well, I love him. Yeah, right. So beautiful. It's so encouraging, like, to think like that. It's not over. You're not done. We're not done yet. No matter what happens again, let's try it again. So I think so, I think in, in Christian films, like, we're trying to be wholesome and healthy and have a good family. But what if your family's falling apart? [00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Like, yeah, that dark place. And what do you do in the darkness of that place? And maybe it doesn't end as happy as you think. But, but, but we're in the infinite game. We're not in the finite game. We're in the infinite game. [00:58:25] Speaker A: I, I, that's it right there. Yeah. [00:58:30] Speaker B: Our whole team even in. Yeah, I say that again. I said our whole team. When we got to Baghdad, our whole team got killed in one day. Our whole lead, lead training team got killed in one day. All that was left was all of our rookies who, who had only been there six months. And now they're in charge of everything that we're going to do in Iraq. And we could sit around all day long going, how come our whole senior team got killed in one incident? Where's God? What's he doing? Read the Bible. There's not going to be an explanation there. It's like God doesn't answer why questions. Here's what he'll tell you. What do you want me to know and what do you want me to do? He'll always answer those why did it happen? We're not in that big plan, but we're in this one. And we look at the scripture and we can watch people totally fail and everything's a disaster. Don't stop. Keep asking the Lord. Don't let me believe anything false about you because of what happened. Don't let me believe anything false about myself because of what happened. And don't let me believe anything false about my neighbor because of what happened, because either one of those will destroy us. Their death doesn't stop us. Our separation from you could totally stop. And that's what God cares about. Don't separate from me, don't separate from yourself, and don't separate from each other. Stay together, stay connected. Keep going, and this will be okay. Right? And those young people that were there, they were. That was 2003 and four. They were 23 when they were there. They're all still there. They're in their 40s. They're in their late 40s. They're all still there, and they're phenomenal. But, man, did they want to leave when that happened. And the only way they stayed is because we spent two days talking about, what do we do with fear Once they got over the fear of they stayed. And they're really successful. So I would love that kind of story. I'd love to tell that story, how they went through that. That's beautiful stuff that no one's gonna know. [01:00:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Even to your point about, like, Kingdom of Heaven and the idea or, you know, maybe like in a Western movie would be, oh, you know, the Muslims are the bad guys. And I just think, like, Ephesians 6:12, you know, our fight is not against flesh and blood. And I think that in the past year, that's been the verse I feel like the Lord keeps pushing on me. It's like this. It's not. It's not with people, you know, even healing from your trauma. It's not about people. It's not, you know, it's like, this is a spiritual matter. Even the film I was telling you about that ended up writing, we just finished in post and submitted to fast. But it's. [01:00:55] Speaker B: Congratulations. [01:00:55] Speaker A: It's called Flesh and Blood. Oh, thank you. And that's kind of. The ideas are this little girl who lost the ability to speak, and she's in this backwoods church in Oklahoma who doesn't want her to have to see a therapist. And there's this determined therapist who wants to treat her. But really, it's kind of like, who's the villain here? Who caused this? And kind of, you know, is it this pastor or is it this dad? Or maybe the therapist? And really, all of it points to, like, it's not against flesh and blood. You know, there's a spiritual matter. And it's been cool. We just got into, you know, I don't think people would know that it has a faith influence in it unless they knew ahead of time. But we just got into Screamfest, which is like a horror film festival. It's kind of a Sundance of horror, but I feel like that, yeah, I think just to your point of like going into the darker spaces and to not be afraid to do it honestly, and then also just knowing where your battle is, you know, it's not against flesh and blood and not letting fear control that. [01:01:59] Speaker B: People do know. People can tell. They do know. You don't have to like, you don't have to like lay everything out for a person to get. That's always our mistake. Like, let, Let God deal with people. Let. He'll do it. You don't have to explain everything. The humans will get humanity. They get it. They're not. Yeah, we need, we need more of that kind of thing. I love that. I think that's fantastic. Fantastic. Good. Good for you. Yeah. If you, if you start blaming people for. You know, when Jesus gets sent out into be tempted by the enemy, by Satan, one thing that he needs to know is that the Romans are not going to be his enemy. Or the Sadducees and Pharaoh, they're not his enemy. This is your enemy. Because when someone's beating you and torturing you and falsely accusing you, the temptation is to believe, that's my enemy. But they are. And that's why Jesus on the cross says, father, forgive them. They don't actually know what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. They think they know. They don't. And that's why we forgive even for the worst person, even for the traffickers and all that, you know, movie that came out about trafficking, that was successful Christian based movie. When you, when they interview people coming out of the movie, watching the movie, they're like, what's the emotion you feel coming out of the movie? Hatred for traffickers. Okay. You've already lost, you've already lost the whole thing because all you did was make them hate them more. Like, that's kingdoms already. Or powerless. You know, Powerless. [01:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:21] Speaker B: What can we do? These forces are too big. And I'm not Special Forces and what can I do? You don't want either of those. You want people coming out going, I, I need to forgive and love and I need to, I need to think about how can I be a part of healing at whatever level I am in anywhere in my life. That's. And that's. You transform a people Group. Right. Not making a mad. [01:03:45] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's good for a final question, too. I want to ask you, is, is there anything you feel like God is currently calling you towards? I'm sure there's plenty. But anything specifically that's been kind of on your heart or, you know, I. [01:04:02] Speaker B: I think, I think what. I think what you're doing. I'm excited about your. Your movie, I think. Because the enemy is not people. Yeah. And our culture is so bent on naming people that are enemies. And so, you know, because the human heart can only make a decision out of either love or fear. Those are the only two motivating emotions in decision making is love or fear. And fear just cripples us, you know, makes everybody an enemy. And so. And love is. Is, you know, the. The one thing that can take away fear. So I, I feel like whatever I'm doing, whatever we're doing, we have to be going after the fear blame game and just promoting it. Sounds so cliche, unfortunately. But this power of what love is. The power of love to redeem and heal. One of my friends always says, Jesus doesn't fix problems. He heals people. He doesn't fix problems. People. And our job is to hold people while Jesus heals them. I think you can do that in story. You don't have to. You don't have to explain every detail to them. Just hold them and let them grieve. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:05] Speaker B: Let them be afraid. But then give them a ray of hope. And part of the ray of hope is like, those people don't own your future. They're not. They're not. They don't own your future that you think they do. That's why they don't. God does. What can we do for these wounded people that reading in such fear and anger and hostility? Like, what can we do? Can we write stories? Can we. Which I think story and art is really the first thing you could ever do to get inside of People stores and then talk about polemics and apologetics and all that stuff. But not until their fists are down. And story take has the potential to get their fists up or down. [01:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah. You kind of bypass the mind and go. Go to the heart or to the soul. [01:05:51] Speaker B: That's right. That's what I learned at 14. The Lord's like, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm here to break your heart right now for the things that give you joy. Not to break your heart with sadness and desperation. But, like, look at the beauty of this thing. Okay, tell me why you're not going to be a part of this. Come with me at this journey. And, you know, I just said, okay, I want to be a police officer. And I mean, I had no idea what God had in mind, but he just gives us a picture to follow because we can't understand the whole thing. So you have a metaphor and you start to follow and you realize, like Dorothy stepping out of the black and White house into the world of color and off we go where there's real friendship and we understand what a real enemy is and all of that real stuff and the real beauty and color of that. But you're not going to do it in your little black and white world where everyone's come out into the. Come out into the color. And it's scary. It's frightening. But come as better than that black and white world because it's true and it's real. Let's go. But you're going to. You need friends on the way, for sure. So that's community. Yeah, sure. You have a lot of community when you're doing your project. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a great place to leave it. Can I just say a quick prayer for you real quick? [01:06:58] Speaker B: Yeah, Love it. Yeah. [01:07:00] Speaker A: Lord, I thank you that you are at work in all things and that you're always speaking. Lord, I thank you for the way you've used Jamie to help so many other people, Father. And I thank you for the way that he trusts you, Lord, and tunes his ear to you for him and his family. I pray that you would bless his marriage, his relationships, his children, his grandchildren, God. And I pray that you would just continue to. Just to fuel him for your purposes, Lord, that his best years are just yet to come, Father. Lord, that you have so much you're doing within him. And also pray that he could just delight, Lord, in just being your son and delighting in you, Lord, and being with you, Lord. And yeah, I just thank you for that, Lord. Bless him, Lord Jesus name. Amen. [01:07:43] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:07:44] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:07:44] Speaker B: Praying for your movie. That's so exciting. [01:07:47] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a really exciting process to see how it's gone. So I was going to say, too, me and my wife, we always have this rule. This is the benefits of being married to a strong woman. But we always have this rule of, like, if we ever have a hint that Maybe, just maybe 1% God is leading us to do something, we just have to do it, you know, no matter what that is. So this is truly no pressure, no need to even respond to this. Now I can just take it with you. But I sort of, at some point, I sort of felt like I've helped other people on film things and with their stories from a directing or writing standpoint. Sounds like you have something in place, but I felt like I was supposed to at least say it out loud that there's. If you need help on any, anything from a story perspective or directing or filmmaking perspective, I'll just put that out there and you can, you know, chew on that. If the time comes, that comes back to you. [01:08:39] Speaker B: You know, I got your info and. Yeah, absolutely. Listen, I never, I, I never turned down, like, intersections that God sets up, ever. I would never say I'm a hundred percent open to it. Like, all the relationships I have that are significant. I didn't plan so saying they're kairos moments and so, yeah, it's honored to. For you to even offer that. So. Absolutely. Yeah, we're, we're, we're doing. We're in the investment process, so there's lots I don't know for sure. And. Yeah. So thank you. Oh, I'm absolutely. I would feel super free to call on you. [01:09:15] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:09:15] Speaker B: So thank you for the offer. It's an honor. [01:09:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, thank you for truly, like, I've sent like podcasts of you to multiple people and, you know, people are like, I got to listen to this like once a month. This is so good. So thank you for using your voice and not giving into fear and just speaking out, so. [01:09:33] Speaker B: Oh, boy. I deal with fear every day, all the time. [01:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah, but you also, you deal with it, right? [01:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Don't let it stop you. But, man, you still have it, so. Yeah, blessings on you and your wife and your. And your production. I mean, I just pray that it impacts people the way that you guys hoped it would and hope it will. That's the best week. [01:09:52] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that'll be amazing. Yeah. Help with it, you know. Back at you, for sure. [01:09:59] Speaker A: All right, well, thanks, Jamie. This was great. Appreciate it. [01:10:03] Speaker B: Take care.