Salomon Ligthelm | Film Director

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today we are talking art and faith with Solomon Lieuten. He is someone I've tracked for a long time. Inspiration of mine, done beautiful work. You know, he. I think he started in the church. He was like a missionary kid. And then he's been all around the world. And I feel like you kind of see that in some of his work. Commercials for Apple, Puma, Adidas, music videos like Beaver and Skrillex and the Weeknd and. But the work itself is always just so beautiful from aesthetics. But also like the sound design, so good. I chat some about that and he's someone to sure a check out. But also just like talking into about his faith. He's always been open about that and kind of the journey he's been on through that process and it's just real encouragement and worth checking out. And we chat some about his short film, beyond the Endless Light that you should see. Also beautiful. Yeah. So let's dive right in. I remember that when I first. First time of like seeing your stuff, I felt like there was like. Like, oh, it's uniquely beautiful. But then like the sound, like, I feel like it was one of the first times I was like, oh man, this is what sound and music can really do to like add so much to it. So, yeah, I kind of always like. I'm like, oh, the best color correction is good music and sound design and then color correction. So anyway, this is kind of a conversation I've had with friends too, you know, about your work and stuff. So I appreciate you being on here and chatting with us, so. Oh, man. [00:01:23] Speaker B: No, appreciate that. But I will say I agree. I mean, not necessarily about my own work, but Sounds familiar me is like people say sound is 50%. I think sound is 80%. There's a lot. There's a lot that you can do on a black screen and just sound design. Like the opening of0Dark30 is just that. And it just. It just immerses you. It pulls you in. For me, sound is, yeah, very, very important. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Totally. I know I'm working on a. I just did a short film or in post production, like kind of a psychological thriller. And you know, as you get rough cuts, you're like, we pretty much need to finalize sound even on our rough cuts. Otherwise we don't really know what we're creating exactly. [00:02:06] Speaker B: The shape of things is not the same if you don't have sound like. So that's why when I edit all my rough cuts like. And I. Someone asked me the question recently on a thing that I just released, like how much are you shaping this? The material? The edits in sound design are fully shaping it in sound design. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. Speaking of which, I just saw I gotta watch your beyond the Endless Light film. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's the one. That's the one, actually, that I had a question about. Yeah. [00:02:34] Speaker A: So good. Yeah. You made me think of the. I think you reposted this too. But it made me just think of, like, who was. It was saying films should feel more like music than it does like fiction, you know, it's more. Yeah, Kubrick. That's right. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Stanley Kubrick said it. And, and, and in some ways, I, I, I really, I really agree with that because I think I've just been thinking, like. And this is just, this is just a me thought. This has not been. I'm not reading this from somewhere, so it could be completely wrong. But I think there's like a couple of things that are almost like. That are almost like transcendent languages. Meaning they bypass rationality and they sort of go straight to the soul. They go straight to the heart. I think that's music. Like, you could have a really horrible day and, and, and put your defenses up and music just hits past the defenses. They pass through rational, logical defenses and, and that open you up to, to, to the divine. I mean, I say the divine and think there's a couple of things. Music, film, comedy, nature. And I can't remember what the other thing. Like art. Art does the same. Like those, those five things. And I'm sure there's more, but, like, they just cut through, you know, through, through the fences, through rational ways of processing. And they. So for me, those are really, really powerful tools, some of which I use and others that I just sort of recognizing. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I heard, especially in a sermon on art, which you don't hear a whole lot of. I feel like at least I don't. But about art. Awaken the imagination and how there's pretty much no version of believing in God. Are coming to believe to God without imagination. Like, you have to picture it. You have to see it even though you don't see it. You know what I mean? You have to believe it even though you don't see it. [00:04:49] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like, for me, it's like you have to get to the end of reason. You have to get to the end of rationality. And it's not a trade off between rationality. It's just these things exist. God exists sort of beyond our rationality. And because it's just so much bigger, there's just so much of reality that art or that science hasn't figured out yet that. So I'm very much against sort of like materialist absolutisms because I think it's just not a great way to explain, explain how our reality works. I think reality is a mix between the known, so science and knowledge and the unknown and faith. And so you have to, you have to have a level of belief and with that doubt, you know, but that's, that's how you sort of navigate reality, I think in the, in the, in the way that I think makes sense to me is sort of logical, you know. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:57] Speaker A: That's interesting. So I was going to say, so why I like the origin of this podcast and wanting to talk to creators who do great work, who I like, have kind of stuff that's gutted me in the heart before. But also people that would say that, like, you know, the Lord has rescued them or is, yeah, it's their God. What I found was I was okay, I'm going to try to write. This is like last year. I'm like, I want to write the story. And I see how God speaks to people and he's rescued me in these ways. And I've seen him show up in my life even in like with community groups and with heartbreaks and these things. And so I'm like, I want to write, do my best to write with him or write on faith. And the first inclination, I think a very like Western thought is like, oh, so I should write a story that makes him. Shows off how good he is. Or I should, I should, I know what I, you know, oh, I should tell people something about him and work backwards around the story, which I think is like the first way to make a terrible story, you know, to just try to essentially like reverse, you know, reverse engineer a scripture or something. So I felt like I was hitting this dead end wall and I was like, okay, that's very clearly, like, essentially that's just like propaganda, you know, like positive propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless. So I'm like, well, let's delete all this and start over. And what I felt like he was calling me to was like, just start typing, like on faith. Like, no plan, nothing. And almost like as an act of faith. And not that he's calling everybody to this, but I feel like that he was calling me was like, just start typing on faith. And I was just like, oh, I would love to hear from more people about their experience, especially in the early phases, I mean, really lots of phases, but like, as you're creating a story, do you feel like there's a version of, like, the Holy Spirit or God or, you know, somehow, like, being a part of that process? I so often feel like my creating process, I almost have to isolate everything and focus on this. And then I, like, touch base with God after. And I was like, I just want to hear. Hear what your experience is like, you know, with creating, you know, especially in the idea phase. [00:08:10] Speaker B: When I started, it came from a very pure place. And then I was working for a church, and. And then I moved to the US And I was wanting to get into commercials because I felt like I just wanted to learn a little bit better how to work with bigger teams, how to upskill my craft. But also came. I came to America 2014, 2015, 2016, when I think there was a real aversion building to things of faith. And even I sort of. I mean, there was a massive move, like a deconstructionist movement, people figuring out their faith and what it looked like. And so many of my friends actually walking. I don't know what to say. Walking away, but maybe moving away from the traditional way that the Western faith expression had been seen. And. Yeah, and so I was sort of like, where I was creating purely before now, I was sort of really tempering the way that I was sort of talking or including my. My faith in the process. I was very conscious of that, that I didn't want to feel like I was prizing to something that a lot of people were feeling hostile towards, in a way. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:29] Speaker B: And so I was like, okay, I'm not gonna put that in really, any of my work. What ended up happening is I started looking at the work, and I see that the stuff was just bleeding out of me. I couldn't even switch it off because it's just such a fundamental part of who I am. My parents are missionaries. I grew up, you know, in. As a missionary kid, sort of across the world, a bunch of. Across a bunch of spaces. And I think I had a. I want to say I had a rock bottom in 2018, which was. Which is just through burnout. It was like working too much and. And sort of putting so much stake in the things that I was doing that I was going really hard. And I sort of felt myself, my inner man, atrophying. Just my relationship as a son to my mom and dad, my relationship as a brother to my sister, my relationship as a husband to my wife. I think they. I Maybe in some ways, I think they didn't see anything Different. But I knew that I was sort of like grinding hard on the, on the, on the career path and I burned out and nothing, like, nothing could get me out of it. And I remember for three months I was like going to bed at 7pm and sleeping till 10am I was like, you know, I didn't, it didn't feel healthy, but that was my way to sort of just cope with reality. And I sort of had a. It was a music video and the feedback on the music video that never got released from the management that tripped me up. But my mom said something to me and she said, I just want you to know that you are beloved. And she said it in like the deepest sense. Like, she said it in the sense that a mom would say to her son because she loves him. But also that's sort of a fallible way because, you know, she doesn't have perfect love, but she, she meant it in a perfect sense, like in a cosmic sense. You are loved eternally, you know, by God. And I remember that was the thing, like, that was. It was like a. My cup was empty. And in that moment, my cup filled, you know, And I realized that, like, our identity. And this is why I don't want to sound dogmatic, but certainly as I sort of experienced it, like, God fills that identity cup when we feel absolutely worthless, like we have nothing to offer our family or our friends. Like, God restores that. And it's not a. I think our, our identity gets depleted when our ego burns really hard. And it's such a fake version of worth our ego sort of posturing. But then, you know, it takes one little small thing for the ego to crumble, for the ego to break. And then you, then you realize, oh, there was nothing there to begin with, or I built on like, bad foundations. And then the thing that really restores you for me certainly has been like knowing who I am in Christ, knowing that I'm made in his image and I'm like, infinitely loved. That made me come back to the table with my family and be a better husband and father and, and to sort of tie this back into what we're talking about. That became a vital thing for me. It just became like, you know, that's not something that, that's not something that I want to hide because actually that's. That's what made me a restored person, a restored husband, dad, father, human, imperfectly. Sure, I'm still, still. I'm still imperfect as a, as all of those things, but at least my ability to feel like I have Something to offer back to my family that that was brought back. And so where I sort of like hid the. Almost like the, where I was sort of hiding to the outside world and to the industry. Not, not. I don't want to say like, obviously, but it's just been something that I wanted to talk about or put out. I'm like now not so scared about because actually it bleeds. It bleeds into my work and it's vital to me. It's. It is me, It's a part of me. It's part of what sort of has restored my identity and keeps doing it. And now I feel like actually there's some stuff that I want to explore that's like really dealing with that, you know, that that isn't necessarily, like you said, it's not like, oh, how do I, how do I reverse engineer this message? But there are things that I can see in films that really speak to me. Tarkovsky films or even Sound of Metal, where dealing with identity and who you are sort of up against who God is is something that like I'm really drawn to and I really want to talk about, but I want to do it in really complex ways and I want to be truly authentic to that expression. So that might mean I make an R rated film or whatever. I sort of don't care about the perception of what the, what the rapper is, you know, what, what the thing is wrapped in, as long as at the end of it there is some sort of truth to it. That's like, for instance, I'm doing, I'm working on a feature film about a missionary kid who has a really bad rebellious drug addiction problem. He's rebellious and that sort of spirals out of control. Moves to Russia with his family, with his mom and dad. His father is taken by state authorities, and when his mother deep delves more deeply into her persecuted Christian community, he sort of digs more deeply into his drug addiction. And it's really raw, it's really honest and it's really broken and swearing. But I wanted to be truthful and I sort of want that journey of him having to wrestle with his faith to also be truthful. I haven't seen that. I have not seen that in film. I have not, you know, never even in Passion of the Christ or things that are sort of considered as artistic works. I just never, I've never seen truly really raw, honest films exploring that. And I think recently or since that burnout that I've had in 2018. So over the last six, seven years, I've been thinking, actually, that's what I want to do with my work. I want to just create very honestly about the tensions of living in this world and how messed up and how broken that is and also what I found in who God is. So, yeah, I'm not very intentional, I should say, about every time I sit down. Am I going to include or exclude God in this process? I think he's in everything that I do. It's. There's no, there's no boundaries, there's no limits. There's no separation in process. It's what I think about. It's who I think about often. And yeah, if that answers the question and it's a long winded answer, absolutely. [00:16:51] Speaker A: No, I think you're tapping in exactly what I'm wanting to chat about, which is like, I think, but this is a theory. Poke some holes in it if you can or, you know, whatever. But I feel like my experience with creating and my experience with like the Holy Spirit, it's almost. This could be blasphemy, I don't know. But it's almost like it's the same language in a way. I feel like that there's this, this prompting. The same thing with music that you feel is the same thing. Sometimes I feel like I felt with the Holy Spirit. And I think that to try to like, make a useful idea and to try to like be all left brain on it, and I think it almost like, I almost feel like you can, you can actually box God out of the creating process if you're not careful. And I think when you actually follow that, that, that feeling. And, you know, I'm not sure that's true for everybody, but I think if you're really seeking the Lord, he says you'll find him, you know, And I feel like if you bring that, like it just as in your life, you're just seeking the Lord. And then you go into that artistic process where you're like using this. Where does my like, heart might be the wrong word, but I'm going to say spirit, like, lead me in this. Like what, what grips my heart. I feel like what I find is what you're saying is it kind of just bleeds in, into the process. Like even on this. I started writing this short on healing in a way, you know, on like therapy, mental health and healing. And I was like, okay, I wrote this draft two. God. I'm like, there's nothing in here for you. Like, I mean, it's meaningful and I love it, but I don't see how this would bring you glory, per se. Is that. Is that what we're doing? Is that okay? And I felt like he's like, yeah, he's like, just keep moving forward in the process. And. And as even I get notes from my collaborators and stuff, like, slowly, over time, I'm like. As I'm looking at the edit, I'm like, oh, like, I see the Lord all over this, you know, and not that everybody will, but I think there's something about, like, that urge that, especially for a believer seeking the Lord, that, like, pursue it and invite the Lord into it, but, like, I think it just spills in. At least that's kind of been my experience. And I feel like that's kind of what you're saying similarly, too. Does that. Does that connect or relate at all for you? [00:19:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think. I do agree. I do agree with that. I think. And I'll just use an example. I think I. I was. I'm really interested in a bunch of different genres and a bunch of different stories, you know, that explore different themes, often sort of intersecting. I don't think God has sort of designated the role of the artist to make without sort of disparaging them necessarily, or not at all. Just to make angel studio sort of work, you know, or films, I think. I think the artist. Being an artist, for one, is sort of a glorifying thing. But I. I'm not going to speak as a theologian. It's not, you know, it's not. Not my place to sort of define the boundaries. But I do think, like you said, it's like, I think God will work through. I mean, man. He speaks to me through secular music and through a lot of different avenues that I just wasn't expecting, you know, for him to sort of speak to me through. And I've got mythological stories that I want to tell that. That thematically deals with materialism. But I think sometimes when you just see, like, it's got gargoyles in it, and I think a lot of Christians would say, oh, well, that's demonic. Like this new thing that I'm. That I just did. Or it's. It comes out for little sims soon, I think a lot of people could go, oh, that looks very scary, you know. But it's a mythology story that sort of, like, deals with people valuing materialism and how that can really bring you to ruin. And in some ways, I think there's sort of a message at the heart of that that I think is sort of deeply anti. How can I say, in some Ways. I don't want to say that the work that I'm making in that front is godly, but I think the message of do not be consumed by the things of this world is at the heart of it. And even though the exterior wrapper of it, which I think a lot of Christians have a lot of issues with the way things look, and they can't even see the deeper meaning that is buried underneath it. And I think I don't really care now so much about how things look, because I am really after. About the deeper meaning. And sometimes even using the language that a culture understands to sort of subvert it and to critique it is also really important for me. [00:22:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:02] Speaker B: So, yeah, yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker A: I know Flannery O'Connor. She would write. She's a, you know, a theologian and would write horror stories and. [00:22:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:11] Speaker A: And I know she would say, as a critique, she'd be like, I could write a paper or a story about a pile of garbage, and people would say, oh, you're glorifying garbage. [00:22:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:23] Speaker A: And she's like, the logic's not there at all. You know. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:22:27] Speaker A: It's not being glorified just because it's mentioned, you know, it was because it's brought into the room. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. You know, and Tolkien did that, and CS Lewis did that to some extent, I don't think. I don't see modern. I don't see that happening these days so much anymore. But that's certainly where I'm sort of trying to explore. But even, I think now in a more modern, contemporary lens, you know, I don't necessarily know what that looks like, but I think there's stories that I think that hasn't been told. Certainly hasn't been told, because I think for the. Because having grown up in Protestant evangelical Christianity and so that's so much of America, that version of Christianity has put so many shame boxes around what people can and can't explore and do. That, I think was never. It's sort of become a very institutionalized thing, is that I don't even think it's the heart of the gospel at all. Some of these strictures that I think the Pentecostal Protestant evangelical movement has sort of put on art and artists. You know, I think even for the longest time, the church has sort of usurped all the artists and sort of, like, put employed them. Okay, great. But then those artists become used to only creating sort of within that space. And when they leave the church, sometimes they go and rebel. And I just want to do something that is absolutely out of these strictures. [00:24:04] Speaker A: And I think you see music as well. You know, I think often I feel like film sort of follows music in some ways. I feel like so many musicians, especially coming from the church, you know, some of my close friends, worship leaders, I feel like sometimes I'm like, oh, the best way to create an atheist artist is to force them to only play and pretend to worship in front of thousands of people over and over again. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:30] Speaker A: You know. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:31] Speaker A: No matter how they're feeling or what they're going through or, you know. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. There's this. This sort of have to. It just becomes a business. It just becomes. And that's the thing I think we've lost. We've lost the wonder. I mean, it's a cliche, but I think we have lost the wonder. It's like when it becomes to corporate, when it becomes too business, like when it becomes. When there's too much money in it. I think it's really hard for. For artists to stay pure in it, you know. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:01] Speaker B: So I don't know that's. I'm trying to protect that sort of in my own. In my own spirit, you know, and I sort of left the church not making. Not making stuff in that domain and. But I'm. I don't want to. There's still. So. I mean, it's at the heart of everything I want to explore as I'm. And you know, the big thing that I've just never. I've never seen comedy really like comedy done in that space. I don't. I don't. I often ask and sort of my wrestling and communion. Communion with God is like, if that's such a big part of the human experience, why don't we see more of it sort of in the scriptures? Why don't we see more of it sort of in the Christian faith? And I. It is actually in the orthodox tradition. There's the, you know, the character of the holy fool or the role of the holy fool, and to sort of. To sort of poke fun at the system so that the dogma and the restrictures within dogmatic systems, something I really want to play with and explore because I also want to also want to poke fun at like, where faith in Christianity, especially when it turns dogmatic and fundamentalistic and ignorant. I want to sort of like poke at that, to sort of point to what is true. Yeah. And that's something that I feel really sort of energized by recently because I think a lot of time when people sort of think about Christianity in art it's, it's. It's either sort of really saccharine and sappy or it's always so, so moving and so deep and, and sort of. I get that. But there is another dimension to it that I think is worth exploring that just again, I haven't seen. You know, like, there's two stories that I'm exploring now that sort of like really farcical but. But it also gets to the heart of it. But it's not just doing it through that one lens. It's sort of like painting a picture, using the full spectrum of human emotions to get to something that feels true and isn't neatly tied up. There's still answers and questions at the end that I think sort of the most interesting thing about cinema and stories is when you can have a non didactic ending or not strong sort of plot, mechanical ending, but it's deeply emotional and felt and true and satisfying in that way. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, can you tell me about. So, yeah, I'm interested in that. So, like something that. Going into the farcical comedy side, like, what would be, you know, again, ultra practical. [00:27:45] Speaker B: Like, what would be an example of that? [00:27:47] Speaker A: The reference. Yeah. Like maybe it's not with the faith side, but as far as like tonally on the comedy side. Like if you're like, oh, the office, but at church or like, you know, like, what is it? [00:27:57] Speaker B: Here's two ideas. One is of an Orthodox priest who baptizes his congregation, um, like one winter's morning on an icy lake. And he ends up baptizing this beautiful woman and gets a boner and sort of sees that as a sign that maybe this life of voluntary celibacy, celibacy that I've led, maybe God has something more for me in a life partnership. And he. And he tries to explore that and he goes, you know, we, we navigate with him the awkward interactions of first dates and speed dating and the reality of romance in the 21st century. Especially from someone who's sort of been guarded and has sort of never lived that and now trying to sort of come into that. And I mean, in some ways there's so much of me in that because I sort of, you know, I. The first woman that I ever dated was my wife at 23. It's the first woman I kissed and been with. You know, so there's so much of me in that character. But I'm sort of doing it in a universe that I can sort of own here in Brighton beach and Coney island, where, you know, I live in New York City. So that sort of. And it's. My parents are missionaries to Russia when I was a kid. So I sort of have a lot of. I sort of have a lot of affinity to that part of the world. You know, I think my deepest fear when I was younger that was that my dad was going to get taken by on one of his trips to Russia because it was sort of illegal to do any sort of Christian pricing work as it still is, was that my dad was going to get taken. And I'm actually working on a feature film that's more realist. It's more like Euphoria meets the lives of others meets Goodwill hunting about. I think I mentioned this about a kid who has a drug addiction and spirals out of control. But I want to wrestle in the meantime. I really want to wrestle with comedy. The other film that I have is this true story and it's. This is another short about this guy, this missionary, this engineer turned missionary who's a unregistered Baptist missionary who travels to the northernmost part of Russia to an area called the Yamal Peninsula because he takes the scripture Matthew 24:14 literally that says, preach the gospel to the ends of the world, to the ends of the earth and then the end will come. He goes to this place called the Yamal Peninsula that literally means in Russia, the end of the land. He buys a tre coal which is a military grade 6 massive 6 wheeler vehicle to try and get to the net to try and get to the northernmost parts which is where the Nenets, an indigenous tribe lives. And in both these stories I actually have a documentary crew following them. So it'll sort of be like I Tonya, where you have these like bits to camera and then you tell the, the narrative story and, and you use the bits of camera to sort of like play with subjectivity and objectivity and unreliable narrators. But then he goes and he meets this Linnet tribal leader and he says, is there anyone that lives more north than you and the light? And the leader is like, no, I'm the, I'm the last one. And so he's. I'm going to come back. He says, I'm going to come back tomorrow and I want to, I want to tell you something. And he goes back to maybe his hotel room and prepares his like last meal, puts on his finest suit and then nothing happens, you know. And then in the end he meets that Orthodox priest that I had in the. This is, this is a triptych of stories. But the Orthodox priest he meets in his hotel Room after, he sort of preached the gospel to the Nenetz tribal leader and nothing happens. It's sort of just, you know, the sky opens and it's almost like aurora borealis, which you get if you're that far north. But it's just a natural occurrence, you know, and he sort of let down and he just. Outside, just as he's come back, Ivan walks past and he's like, he sees this dejected guy and it's like, oh, you know, I see you have a Iftus sticker on your car. Are you a Christian as well? And Pavel says, yes, I've been here. I've been trying to preach the gospel to these godless tribes. And Ivan's like, I've been here for five years just living amongst these people. I've never really told them the gospel but I've lived it. I've sort of just been with them and it's sort of that St. Francis of Assisi thing. If necessary, use the gospel. Sorry, preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words. And it's, and it's trying to sort of, it's trying to sort of get to the heart of I think what faith is, which is not, it's not militant nationalism which I think you get in the us it's actually community and presence and being with people and, and in some ways it's also not about the supernatural, it's about the very natural relational things and using comedy to sort of explore. To sort of explore that has been, has been really fun and eye opening that it's sort of possible, you know, that's cool. [00:33:23] Speaker A: Well, I just had this question for later on, but I feel like it's on topic now, but kind of like if someone, let's say someone was listening to this podcast producer, financier and everyone's like, oh, I want to finance your next project, whatever it is, your next feature. Do you wi. Do you know which project it is? You would, you would move forward if they were like, all the money is here. I'm provide all the money. You just make it. Is there a, a project that comes to mind first? [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it'll probably be this one called iconoclast about the 17 year old missionary kid who moves from the outskirts, moves from the outskirts of Johannesburg to the outskirts of Moscow and soon upon arriving his father is, is taken by state authorities and his life, this kid's life spirals out of control and, and he has to, he has to go to rehab, like group therapy where he meets an Orthodox priest and, and these Two clash and they just ideologically very opposed because also in Russia, the Russia, the, the Orthodox Church is sort of, I think by a lot of people is sort of seen as corrupt. But there's still sort of a vestige, I think of, of real Christ filled Orthodox people there that have sort of not been, they've not been commanded by, by the government. And I'm writing a story about a kid and one of those priests and their relationship. This, this, this guy that becomes a proxy father to this kid while his father is imprisoned. And that's. I think that's the first one because in some ways it's the most semi. Well, I want to say it's sort of semi autobiographical. It's the close. There's still a lot of work that sort of needs to be done with it. But I think it's that one. There's. There is another film called Foreign Animals that's set here in Brighton Beach, Coney Island, Ukrainian immigrant family that's sort of like the town meets Little Odessa meets Lahane. It's about these kids from different parts of the sort of the Slavic world that rob from undocumented immigrants because they can get away with it. And then it's a story of one of these kids and his father and their sort of like struggle. So many of my stories are father son stories and I'm just sort of exploring the prismatic elements I guess of those stories. [00:35:52] Speaker A: That's great. [00:35:53] Speaker B: That would be another one. I think it's just whenever the season. I've pushed that one so hard over the last while and it just doesn't feel like it's sort of the, the right time for it. So I'm also, honestly, if I'm very honest with you, I'm like in A Season of Surrender because I think there are these things that I've like really wanted to see come to light and they, and they haven't yet. And I'm sort of going, God, I'm preparing a lot of things and I would just want to offer them up for when the season is ready. So literally this morning I was working on a film called the Badger that's also sort of US based, sort of like Nomadland meets Monster meets into the Wild of a South African farmer who moves to Wyoming after a tragic event happened in South Africa to her family. And she has a unique skill to sort of understand and read weather patterns. But she, and she's looking for someone to sponsor her green card, but, but no one's willing because she has all these anger, outbursts that no one can understand where it's coming from. And then finally a rancher says, I'll take you on, but you have to go to therapy. And there's a. And there's a thing called Constellation therapy that's done at the Scroop Therapy. And we learned that her. That her husband and kids were killed on a farm and that she ended up killing the killer. And the film is about trying to find redemption, trying to find the mother of the person that she's killed. And it's very true to sort of a lot of things that are happening in South Africa at the moment, but that's another one and there's so many others. And just trying to find the season, you know, trying to meet the season with a bunch of ideas and see which one is, is right for the moment. [00:37:41] Speaker A: That's cool. You mentioned a season of Surrender, and I feel like, especially, I feel like, you know, for filmmaking especially, it's, it just takes so much to do like a full feature and you kind of need, you need team in an army. You need money. Yeah. How do you. Is there any, like, practical things you do to deal with that since, like, choosing to surrender? Because I know, like, you know, we can feel that God is calling us maybe to something, but then it's like, well, I'm, you know, I'm willing, Lord, but what do I do next? You know, is there, is there any. Do you ever feel like the Lord's calling you to any direction or is there just like a letter? Oh, I just like, get on my face and say, I surrender. Like, you know what. Is there any practical things that you kind of do in that, that time? [00:38:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly. And this is the thing to say, I think surrender is not just a state of being. Yes, it is, but it's sort of easy to say, oh, you just do it. It's just sort of a state of being. But I think it's really, it's, it's. I think it's, it's stopping a fight in a certain direction and, and, and, and sort of either changing direction or just, or just going, I actually not going to fight. So for instance, for, for foreign animals, I've sort of really fought. I mean, I, I've been trying pretty hard to get it in front of people and having come very, very close twice on like, money closing for it now, I'm just going. I'm not fighting on that. If, if there's a conversation that just springs up randomly, I'll have the conversation, but I'm not going after it. Meaning. So. Meaning I'm not putting my emotions. I'm not attaching my emotions to anything related to that film. And I'm not going hard after pursuing any avenues for it. Again, if I get an email in, what are you working on? Oh, I'll send it, but I'm not hitting people up. So. Yeah, that's sort of practically, I think, what that looks like for me in that. And I think. I think I've become better at trusting God, honestly, just in. Just in the career side is one thing for sure. But I'm like, I've got deeper. No, not deeper. I've got bigger things to deal with, like my. I've got like, back problems at the moment. And that's. That's a real trusting God for. Because that I feel constantly. And it's. And on. I think on that level, the other things I'm like, much more. Much more open to, however they work out on this one, on my back, I'm just really, honestly desperate. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker B: So I know. [00:40:29] Speaker A: It's funny how that the physical so quickly puts everything in. Into perspective, you know? [00:40:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It overrides all. All other things. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Well, I want to just ask a few kind of quick little, you know, lighting around, if you will. Not that it has to be quick, but just on the. The faith side is interesting to me. I don't feel like we get to hear people talk about it much, but are there any, like, practices or disciplines, routines, kind of spiritual practices that, like, you've kind of are generally a regular part of your life that you've found fruitful? [00:41:10] Speaker B: I think that the biggest thing that I know adds value and in some ways it's the hardest thing to do. I think, just because the 21st century is just so noisy, is being still. And it's. It's like, you know, sort of the cliche because it's not a particular action, it's like the. The absence of actions. And. But last night I was just like, we're currently upstate and I was just putting. You know, I have a tendency to live with my headphones in my ear. That's why I didn't have my headphones working when we started this call. But last night as I was sitting, I was just making the fire and I was like, this is so good for my soul, just sitting here and listening to the fire. And it's after the kids went to bed and my wife was already in bed, and I was like, I don't do this enough. But I really feel spoken to. I really feel like I know my place in the here and now, but also I know my place just in my value. So for me, I think that's the biggest thing. And it's, it's. It's the biggest sort of the biggest value added to my life. And in some ways, it's the hardest to do because the distraction, sort of the cocaine of our society is so readily available and it tastes so good. Being busy, being validated through social media, it's just such a strong drug. And I'm so guilty of partaking, but. And I know, you know, when I think, when I think of like, what sort of represents. I was gonna say it, and again, it's sort of like very conspiracy theorist of me, but if I think of what represents sort of antichristness, Antichrist's likeness, I think it's sort of social media and algorithms. It's just such a. It's, it's, you know, cognitive scientists talk about worship as being attention, what you give attention to. And our devices, social media algorithms, are really just stealing attention. They're the things that steal attention, so they, they steal worship. And then if I go deeper on sort of what artificial intelligence is and that, it's, it's these, these new things. They're large language models, so they're words, they're words manipulated by numbers. The original word is Christ. You know, John one sort of speaks about how reality and life came into being and how life is sustained through the original word Christ. And we're sort of living in. In a world where truth is becoming very. What is truth? You know, I don't even know these days on YouTube what videos are real and not. And so, yeah, I don't know. I. Artificial intelligence for me is a big thing. It's, it's not like. It's not like something to be shunned, but I think it is something to have a very tempered relationship with. And maybe the future might even. Maybe the future may suggest otherwise, as in maybe the future suggests like no relationship with artificial intelligence. I don't know. But certainly where we are now, I think just be careful, you know. Anyway, I don't want to get into a big rant on that. [00:44:51] Speaker A: No, that's good. I'm there with you. I've kind of like have certain rules on social media for myself or like, I try to pretty much only do, like, I'm like even just keeping it to my computer and not on my phone when it's right. So it's not reactionary, has been like a helpful thing. But I mean, it's. Yeah, it's. Once you start flipping on those vertical videos, all of a sudden an hour has gone by. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Exactly that. Exactly that. [00:45:16] Speaker A: I wanted to ask you too. This is kind of about like ambition. So I come from an ambitious family. I'm definitely an ambitious person. I think a lot of people kind of are to some degree. But I also think as a believer there has been this battle of like humility and to, you know, there, there seems to be this tension. I think a lot of believers are kind of apprehensive or suspicious of their own ambition. And I'm not so sure. I think sometimes it's hurting people and then sometimes I think it's good. You know, I think there could be different phases in love and life. But what's your relationship to ambition? [00:45:56] Speaker B: Like? [00:45:56] Speaker A: Do you. Is it something you're keeping in check or is it something you feel like God is empowering you to kind of push forward on? [00:46:05] Speaker B: I'll put it this way. I think it's really important or not really important. I think it's just a. How can I articulate it? We can have two engines that drive us. I really think ambition is not a great engine to drive us. But I think curiosity is a incredible driver because I think that in some ways is God given? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But my feeling is that ambition is not a. I don't know if that's a sort of a God given driver because it's sort of outward focused. It's often, it's like unsustainable because you need to do better than you did before. You're fighting your. I mean, even when people say self, it's very self. Like you're fighting yourself to be better than yourself. And like, oh, that sounds great, but actually like I don't feel like I create my best work when I'm doing that because I can't even undo the last project that I did. So why am I even trying? I'm. But, but when it's, when it's out of curiosity, it's like, oh God, what. What did you show me in this thing that I need to go and dig up? And, and why am I fascinated by. I'm like immensely fascinated by rocks and archeology. And then recently, and I didn't even know where that came from. And then recently I discovered there, I don't know how you say it, Herculaneum scrolls, Herculean scrolls from Pompeii. That was These texts that are charcoal blocks now that they realized were basically stored in a lot that was part of a library in Pompeii that Mount Vesuvius destroyed when it erupted. But there's ancient texts buried in this that like, oh, wow. So, okay, rocks. And you know, I couldn't even, I couldn't even tie these things together. But now they've started. They've now been able to use scans, X rays and I think different technologies to open and virtually unwrap these ancient texts that we had access to for, I don't know, hundreds of years, but we couldn't open because they would just break and fall apart. Now we can scan them and we can learn what's in these texts. Some of these texts are like ancient, ancient, like Leviticus. They discovered Leviticus, like manuscripts of Leviticus in this thing. I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. And I've got no. Ambitious, like, I've got no, I don't, I don't know why that is interesting in like an ambitious sense. Like, I don't know who's going to care about that, but there's something there that I want to go unlock and I want to go, I want to go make something out of it. You know, I think when I realized, when I start getting unhealthy, when it's like, oh, this thing is going to do a lot of things for me. This, the. It becomes outcome based a project like, oh, what is this thing going to unlock? Door wise, opportunity wise. And I get that there's a reality to that, but I think I've been more healthy when I, when it's just the project itself. Like, what is the, what is the, what is the project itself mean to me? You know, how does it speak to me? Why do I want to bring that out into the world? I think if my answer is because it's going to do this for me and that for me, or as opposed to, sorry, if it's like, you know what? I think someone's going to find something in the story that I found and connect with it emotionally, like I connected with it or just out of, out of an interest, then I feel like it's sort of a better. I'm not trying to vilify ambition for some, for people that are driven by. It just doesn't work for me. It just not. It's not. Yeah, like some people are very driven by competition. I'm not like, you know, if you, if I have to do something that I'm competing against a friend with, I Actually hate it because it puts a strain on our relationship. It's not. It's not good for us. I'm better. I'm better. Just operating out of curiosity. I'm not saying I'm the most curious person, but it's just the driver. If I identify the driver being curiosity. And I think who was. May have been like John Mark Comer or John Tyson, who said be. Be driven by curiosity and not ambition. I was like, well, yes, that's. There's. There's a truth to that for me. [00:50:29] Speaker A: That's good. That's very good. So getting into our last questions here, just kind of like jumping back some, but is there a time you feel like it could be the first time you felt like God was like, real to you or that he rescued you? You know, for me, it's like, oh, I think more of like a time over he, like later on in life. I've always feel like I've known him most of my life. I kind of grew up like a pastor's kid similarly as well. But I feel like there was a time when he became real to me where it was like, he's not just like a good God, but he is a good God who rescued me. Is there a time for you that comes to mind that you've experienced with him, whether it be later in life or early in life, that he just felt real? [00:51:17] Speaker B: Many times, honestly, like, so I think that's the one thing that sometimes break me when, when, when I think he gets such a bad God, Gets such a bad rap. Yeah, because it's so on surface things that I think if you have an encounter with God, it's like, man, it's like he restores everything, you know? And I once, I was just like, sometimes when I just like, need to be reminded of the things that God has done for me. I watch these videos on YouTube, trying to think of what they're called. They're like these testimony videos of like drug addicts and. [00:52:19] Speaker A: Maybe watch the same videos. [00:52:21] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a couple of them. And they always. They always end with, what is. Who does Jesus mean to you? Who is Jesus to you? Every time I see those, I'm like, they just speak to me so much because I, I don't. I don't have the same experience as those people have had with, with. With drug or alcohol or addiction. But I have my own things, you know, Like, I have my own subjective lows. Like, and, and we all have rock bottoms. And it may look very different, but it's things that we can't get out. It's situations that we can't get out of ourselves, you know, by no sheer power of our will. And I think those are the moments where God comes and sort of like, reveals Himself and shows you who you are in light of Him. And one was in 2018, like I said, about when I had that burnout. And then two years later, during sort of a similar period, like career, like a fraught moment in my career. And it's always in the depths of despair. It's like it's always there. It's always when. When there's no way out, you know, that. That God comes and restores you, you know, so those moments have meant a lot to me. And I can't remember who said it or whether it's. I don't know whether it's even just a thought of mine, but I feel like I've heard it said that you can either allow. You can either have these moments, an encounter with who God is in these intense moments of suffering, or you can surrender every day, every day come and meet him so that you don't have to get to that place. It's either like the small everyday moments of surrender and prayer and meditation, or you walk away from that at your own peril. And you will meet a moment where you get to the end of yourself. And I always think there's three ways. There's three paths there. It's either you choose to just end it. You try to do it in your own strength, and maybe it'll help for a season, but you will get there again and again, or you surrender to who God is. And I have just personally find that. That surrendering to who God is time and time again, that's just. That fills my cup, you know. But, yeah, and that. That I can. And it's. I don't want to say it sucks, but there's no rational. There's sort of no rational argument. There's no apologetics argument that I can sort of give to why I think God is real, or it's just when you have nothing, God fills that. And I wish more people turned to God because I know there's a lot of people that operate out of the nothingness, increasingly so. Increasingly so. Increasingly so. I think we hear it so often, like we live in a meaningless. There's a meaning crisis, and young people are living in sort of a meaningless generation. Like, yeah, I think there's a reason for it. You know, God's not. God's not a factor of people's lives. And there's a hostility to it, which I understand. I get the cultural context that we live in, why that has happened, especially because the Western American evangelical church has been so messed up. So it's completely understandable. It's just a shame that so many people throw the baby out with the bath water, because I think to a lot of people it would be life. And listening to those YouTube documentaries, I was like, man, these. If people listen to them, it could really save them. It could really. When I. What I mean, save them is like, I think a lot of people just go, oh, well, saved means are you saving my soul to go to heaven? It's like, actually, no, you're saved from yourself here on Earth in a way. Like, you are saved from your ego here on Earth. That's going to cripple you, that's going to destroy you, that's going to destroy your marriage. That's what you're saved from. God will reveal the rest to you. But first and foremost, I think to be saved is something for this life. [00:57:00] Speaker A: It's amen. [00:57:02] Speaker B: You know, I think it's. It's like the kingdom of the here and not yet. You know, I think there's God's working out his kingdom in the here and now. It's not just saved for, oh, when we die. I think that's a very limited way of seeing what all that God has for us here in a way that's good. [00:57:28] Speaker A: Well, that's great. With that. Can I. Actually, I'm some plaintiffs. Can I just say a quick prayer to close us out on this? [00:57:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Lord, I thank youk for this time. I thank youk for Solomon, Lord. I just pray a blessing over him and his family, his children, his wife, Lord, his relationships, Lord, what yout call him to. I pray that yout would empower him, Lord, that he could be diligent with where youe lead him, but he could abandon the outcomes to youo. Father. I pray that he could bring glory to you in the way that you. [00:58:03] Speaker B: Would have it, Lord. [00:58:04] Speaker A: And I just thank you for it. I pray that you continue to. I pray that you'd heal us back by your stripes who are healed, Father. And I just pray for just in that surrender time, Lord, that could just be an overflowing of your presence and your calling, Lord. Thank you. In Jesus name, Amen. Awesome. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Appreciate it, Nathan. [00:58:21] Speaker A: Thanks, man.